raggletaggle
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 144
- Joined: 6/8/2005
- Status: offline
clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
I was wondering -- do most of you guys do this to increase the fullness of the tune? Or do you leave each audio component to just one track and using mastering tools to beef the sound up from there?
|
dcastle
Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2623
- Joined: 11/15/2004
- Location: Inland Empire
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 1:50 PM
(permalink)
Greetings Jim,
Glad to see you've made it through the setup issues and are actually getting around to using SONAR.
Cloning or copying tracks will only increase the volume (unless you put different plugins on each track --- which is a waste --- since you could send the original track to multiple send buses that have different plugins on them).
Recording multiple takes of the same vocal or instrumental will add all kinds of nice phase/frequency/timing differences that will thicken up a track.
Or, you can cheat (like we all do) and use plugins.
Regards,
David
ASUS M3A78 AMD 9950 Quad 2.6G 8GB Shure • Rhode • Audio-Technica • Allen&Heath GL2200-24 MOTU 24i • Presonus Firepod • E-MU 1212m • Zoom H2 SONAR 2XL-8PE • Sound Forge 1-9 • Audacity 0.1-1.3
|
rallenjones
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 823
- Joined: 12/23/2003
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 1:56 PM
(permalink)
A trick some people use is to adjust EQ on the cloned track. Another is to pan the cloned track differently from the original track. Another thing you might try for soft synths is to use a slightly different sound for the cloned bank (i.e. two different pianos, or in an orchestral program, you could use different ensembles).
|
Doug Bircher
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 58
- Joined: 9/21/2004
- Location: Corpus Christi, Texas USA
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 2:06 PM
(permalink)
Try cloning the track, then pan the clone track hard right (or left) or mostly right or left, then delay the clone track by 3-5 milliseconds by right clicking the clip in the cloned track, selecting "properties" and adding the milliseconds. Then, reduce the volume of the clone track to the point where it adds spatial fullness to the sound, but is not clearly heard as a separate, subtantial track of its own. You might need to pan the cloned track a bit to the other side to help in the "fullness" factor.
Sorry if you knew all this already.
Doug
|
raggletaggle
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 144
- Joined: 6/8/2005
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 2:09 PM
(permalink)
wow, these are some simple but great recommendations. I'll give them a shot. I'd like to use as little eq/ compression/ limiting as possible, if I can get some thickness going on through natural means.
|
wogg
Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1819
- Joined: 11/14/2003
- Location: Columbus, OH
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 2:13 PM
(permalink)
I use the original track sent to multiple busses via a pre fader send at 0dB. The only downside is that the efx bis is before the aux sends.
For example: A single guitar track goes like this in many of my band practice projects
Waves rChannel on the track EFX bin to adjust initial gain up to peak and perhaps some master EQ'ing
Aux send to guitar bus 1, 0dB pre fader
Channel output to guitar bus 2 @ 0db
Guitar bus 1&2 have their own EQ / amp sim / compression / pan etc. and output ot a guitar master bus
The guitar master bus is used for a master control of all guitar sounds and feeds the master bus
|
SteveD
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2831
- Joined: 11/7/2003
- Location: NJ
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 2:55 PM
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: raggletaggle
I was wondering -- do most of you guys do this to increase the fullness of the tune? Or do you leave each audio component to just one track and using mastering tools to beef the sound up from there?
Instead of cloning a track: Overdub a unison part as mentioned by others
Mult the signal on the way in through a half-normalled patchbay and run the mult-ed signal through some external eq and/or compression. Then mix the mult-ed and processed track in next to the dry track and add a little delay. As others have mentioned... you can do this in the box with busses and sends from 1 track if you don't have external effects or a patchbay. If there's a concern about the send being after the effects bin on the track... don't use track inserts... use 2 sends to 2 separate busses and apply your plugins there
Record ambient mic tracks and add effects to taste
You don't need to clone a track to do any of this.
|
dcastle
Max Output Level: -49 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2623
- Joined: 11/15/2004
- Location: Inland Empire
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 3:36 PM
(permalink)
Try cloning the track, then All of these suggestions that start with "clone the track" are wasting hard disk and/or CPU resources. The ideas are good, but they should be using the incredibly flexible routing system to send the original track to 2 different send buses with different plugins, pans, or whatever on them. Read the manual or the help files for more information. Regards, David
ASUS M3A78 AMD 9950 Quad 2.6G 8GB Shure • Rhode • Audio-Technica • Allen&Heath GL2200-24 MOTU 24i • Presonus Firepod • E-MU 1212m • Zoom H2 SONAR 2XL-8PE • Sound Forge 1-9 • Audacity 0.1-1.3
|
xohol
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 342
- Joined: 8/19/2004
- Location: chicago
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 4:03 PM
(permalink)
simply cloning a track will do nothing but raise the volume by 6db by summing two identical wave forms. you could simply raise the volume. i nice trick to fatten the sound is to compress, even heavily, the cloned track, and do not compress the original.
|
wogg
Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1819
- Joined: 11/14/2003
- Location: Columbus, OH
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 4:07 PM
(permalink)
nice trick to fatten the sound is to compress, even heavily, the cloned track, and do not compress the original. Oldie but goodie... What was the name of that technique again? Motown compression?... something like that.
|
Gregmang
Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1592
- Joined: 12/31/2003
- Location: Maryland USA
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 4:07 PM
(permalink)
IF I clone a track I will typically change the time of one of them (as Doug said above) by about 30 milliseconds.
|
xohol
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 342
- Joined: 8/19/2004
- Location: chicago
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 4:39 PM
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Gregmang
IF I clone a track I will typically change the time of one of them (as Doug said above) by about 30 milliseconds.
yes, but be careful with this becuase you can phase out frequencies. i think someone was talking about this above, but there is a nice way to blur the 'focus', or direction of the sound. i will explain. the ear perceives the direction of the sound in 2 ways, volume, and time delay. if the sound is louder in one ear, your brain will tell you that the sound is coming from that direction. if the sound hits one ear before the other, your brain will tell you that the sound is coming from that direction. so, clone the track. pan one hard left. one hard right. nudge the right track over by say... 30-50ms, or until the sound sounds as if it is coming from the right. then... compensate for this right shift by raising the volume of the left panned track. now the sound will shift back in the middle. but, it will sound kind of like it is coming from 'somewhere in the middle' as your brain is getting fooled by the combination of time delay counteracting the volume. this is a great way to spread a backround vocal around a nice solid centered lead vocal.
post edited by xohol - August 11, 05 4:45 PM
|
SteveD
Max Output Level: -47 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2831
- Joined: 11/7/2003
- Location: NJ
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 4:52 PM
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: wogg
nice trick to fatten the sound is to compress, even heavily, the cloned track, and do not compress the original.
Oldie but goodie... What was the name of that technique again? Motown compression?... something like that.
Motown Trick / Parallel Compression / NYC Compression ...all basically the same thing.
|
songsmyth
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 280
- Joined: 4/24/2005
- Location: Asheville, NC
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 5:39 PM
(permalink)
Is there an advantage to cloning a track rather than (as pointed out above by David) just using separate buses? It does seem like using a cloned track just takes up more HD space. What's the bottom line?
Cheers! David P4, 2.26ghz, 2gb ram, 180+360gb 7200hdd, dual monitor system- fx5700Ultra, Audigy Platinum, inspire 5700 SRS system, Tascam 424MKIII&Porta05HS into SONAR 5PE / Adobe Audition / Project 5 V2 ...
|
glazfolk
Max Output Level: -22.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5253
- Joined: 5/12/2004
- Location: Tasmania
- Status: offline
RE: clone/copy tracks to beef up sound?
August 11, 05 6:22 PM
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: dcastle
All of these suggestions that start with "clone the track" are wasting hard disk and/or CPU resources.
Not so! The amount of extra CPU used by cloning a dry track is absolutely nothing compared with adding, say, digital delay. As for using hard disk space ... well, that's what it's there for! If you manage your projects efficiently (backing up and removing completed projects from the hard drives of your DAW) disk space will never be a problem. In any event, the objective of a mix is to give you as closely as possible the sound that you want, not simply to minimise CPU and disk utilisation. Resources are there to be used - don't be afraid to use them! I frequently clone tracks, with good results, for example: 1. When the volume of the original track is simply not sufficient 2. To "fatten" a track, especially a weak-ish vocal. Nudge the clone (or clones) a few ms behind the original (and pan them differently to create width) - this must use less CPU than say Sonitus delay! (But use the Sonitus Delay if it gives you the sound you want). Sometimes use EQ and compress each differently as well (or compress one but not the other) to create depth. I'd recommend a combination of cloning and FX and bussing where each is appropriate to really help you get the sound you want. Best advice I can give you is keep an open mind. Experiment and learn. A good sound engineer gets to know all the tools at his/her disposal and develops an intuitive feel when to use each. Best, Geoff
post edited by glazfolk - August 11, 05 7:47 PM
Geoff Francis - Huon Delta Studios AMD Opteron 246 2GHZ twin CPU Tyan S2875 AVRF Dual M'board 2 Gig RAM, Three Monitors w NVIDIA GeForce FX5700 Alesis iO26, 2 NTFS Seagate HD DigitalDesign Speakers
|