guigz2000
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/27 16:25:21
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grizwalter First off, thanks a million, everyone, for all the help and answers/suggestions. This is truly eye-opening. What a fantastic forum. Hope I can pay it forward sometime! Basically, it seems that the CPU, after all this, is still the most likely culprit. While the RAM functionality may be slowed down somewhat due to odd-matching, since RAM doesn't seem to have anything to do with this (using only 2.6 Gb tops in X3 no matter how much the audio drops out), there's no point in worrying too much about that. Wish I'd talked to you folks before I got more RAM, although, admittedly, 3 Gb was pretty pathetic anyway, and rather embarrassing to admit. lol guigz2000, thanks for the additional info and link. I'll take a look at that. But either way, I'm 90% likely going to upgrade now. The info I have on my current Motherboard and CPU are as follows: Manufacturer: ECS Name: MCP61PM-HM I have a second motherboard name which is labeled "HP/Compaq motherboard name," and that says "Nettle2-GL8E." I suppose that's just the name they give it for their computer package. Current CPU: Athlon 64 X2 (B) 5000+ 2.6 GHz (65W) Is that the correct info to figure out what new CPU will work?
Ok, it seems that your mainboard will not accept bigger processor.It's an AM2 socket (AM2+ would have been better). An AMD phenom 1 X4 should work but there's no way to guarantee that without testing. A better solution may be to get a new processor/mainboard. AMD one are very cheap and they work well (you won't get performances that great, but it definitely will be better than what you currently have). The cheapest Mainboard+Processor should be something like 110 euros and for the price, you should be able to get a 4 core 3.2GHz, with upgrade possibilities. Just check the memory type. Nitenite
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Kev999
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/27 17:42:35
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grizwalter ...people said that my A.R.T. Dual Pre unit is not an audio interface. That is incorrect. It is a preamplifier AND a Computer Audio Interface. I've had no problems with it whatsoever at any point previously, so let's take that out of the equation.
Apparently it's only a 16-bit device and it relies on the built-in Windows MMS drivers. It looks to me like a weak link in the system.
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bandso
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/27 18:03:13
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2013/12/28 11:45:58
You may want to go into each tracks prochannel and delete the ones that you are using. That seemed to open up some resources under the hood for a project that I was working on. I was having major dropouts on a project with 40 tracks or so until I did this.
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Paul P
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/27 18:21:28
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grizwalter To my mind, this is coming down to the unfortunate possible reality that what many people here have indicated is correct: RAM doesn't matter much. I find that incredibly hard to swallow and, frankly, disappointing. [...] A lot of people asked about the plug-ins involved, but like any 44 track mix, one can assume there are going to be a lot of them, and of course I understand they bear down on the system. However, that doesn't change the fact that upping the RAM SHOULD have helped a lot (considering more than doubling what I had), and instead it did absolutely nothing.
I haven't programmed any plugins, but I'm pretty sure most of what they do is calculations, and that means CPU cycles. Most plugins probably use very little memory. Synth samples, on the other hand as scook points out, are all memory and that's where ram will help the most.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/27 19:09:14
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bandso You may want to go into each tracks prochannel and delete the ones that you are using. That seemed to open up some resources under the hood for a project that I was working on. I was having major dropouts on a project with 40 tracks or so until I did this.
That's a very good idea! Thanks for the suggestion. I'll definitely give it a try!
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/27 19:12:13
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guigz2000, Thanks again sir. Lucky me, huh?! Can't upgrade the CPU to a bigger one. I'll consider a new motherboard. You mention that it won't make a big performance difference, but will help, however, isn't one of the things I would be looking for in that upgrade a motherboard which can take a bigger CPU? If I did both, it would really get the job done I'd think, yes?
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Blades
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/27 19:31:38
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It's really a complex equation of things to come up with "what will fix the problem". It seems that the two things possibly at issue here are the sound card/driver and/or the CPU. USB devices "tend to" use more resources than some other things, so a great driver is really needed, especially if you are doing a lot with a bunch of channels at once, but if you are at the mix part of things and are just using the stereo out of that card, it would seem ok from the data throughput perspective. That doesn't rule it out as the issue, however, especially since you are running a bunch of tracks with a bunch of plugs at 96k. The 96k part CAN be helpful from a low latency achievable point of view, but not necessarily for overall performance at high load. That's a lot of bits/bytes to push around. The CPU is certainly suspect as well - and you know your options there. Unfortunately, a motherboard/CPU replacement is a non-trivial upgrade. Sure, it's easy enough to snap it all together, but to really do it right, you would have to rebuild the OS/apps/etc since the motherboard has some many functions - busses, cpu, memory, etc. It would probably "work" if you just swapped it out once Windows figured it out, but it would be less than optimal and you may lose whatever gains you were hoping to get in the process. It's better than it used to be under earlier versions of Windows, but I still wouldn't recommend doing it that way. You said you have had other similar projects work, right? Is it at all possible that there is just something wrong with the project or some plugin that's loading or something? I've had projects that misbehaved with what seemed to be a lower requirement than other tunes that were absolutely more complex from all perspectives and determined that there was just something wrong. It isn't easy to find or really to fix, but in the end, it was the only way I was able to complete the song: export the tracks, bring them into a new project and start adding everything back in one at a time. Is there a "breaking point"? can you "archive" (as in mute/solo/archive) some of the tracks a bit at a time and see if something drastically reduces the issues/cpu usage/whatever? Hope this helps in some way.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/27 19:46:03
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Thanks Blades for the additional input. I can tell you this is not a project related issue. I have had problems a few times; when I referred to working other projects of that many or more tracks, I was referring to the fact that I'd worked with them in MC6T and Sonar X3 prior to getting Sonar X3 Studio, and never had this problem. That's why it bothers me. Someone above mentioned deleting all the not-in-use ProChannels and, frankly, outside of the obvious upgrading of the CPU/Motherboard, that's the smartest thing I've heard yet. I mean, considering I didn't have this problem in MC6T and Sonar X3, and considering the ProChannels is the only persistent difference between the two, that is a very logical thing to do, especially since that is a one-to-one direct relationship of additional "load" on the system--each track = one more case of a ProChannel. However, I'm pretty sure the ProChannels default to "off," and I can't see any way to delete an entire channel, just the modules within it (not including the QuadCurve EQ, which is locked I'm guessing). So any further tips or ideas on this are VERY welcomed!
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bandso
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 00:13:37
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Sorry if my post wasn't entirly clear. I believe that you are correct that you cannot delete the entire prochannel, just the modules inside (and the EQ is locked as far as I can tell). Removing the unused modules did seem to help my CPU meter usage drop even if the modules were off.
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mettelus
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 00:21:22
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I believe that is correct with the unused modules, as SONAR is still processing them to a certain level "just in case" you switch them on during playback.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 00:45:27
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Yeah metteus and bandso. You are both very likely correct. Seems that it is probably like the difference in Archiving and Muting. You mute a track, it still has to be ready to pop it on in a microsecond, so the system is still doing the reading processing or whatever. Archive the same track and you can't do a thing with it until playback is stopped. Makes sense the same would apply to a ProChannel. I wonder though if they couldn't patch it all up so the EQ could be removed as well, or an actual "archiving" of sorts of the entire ProChannel. As long as anything lives in it, the system has to be ready for it to engage, thus system resources are at play.
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Kev999
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 01:48:30
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grizwalter ...running three 2 Gb modules only at that point. No change whatsoever...
Are they a matched set, i.e. are all three sticks identical? If not then I would suggest sticking with a matched pair of 2GB sticks. Most motherboards require RAM to be used in pairs anyway and are fussy about which combinations of slots are used.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 03:46:49
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Kev999
grizwalter ...running three 2 Gb modules only at that point. No change whatsoever...
Are they a matched set, i.e. are all three sticks identical? If not then I would suggest sticking with a matched pair of 2GB sticks. Most motherboards require RAM to be used in pairs anyway and are fussy about which combinations of slots are used.
Yes sir they are.
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mettelus
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 04:10:02
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Another option available is to do your own versioning of the project to streamline it. I have done this in larger projects where I save one as a "sand box" which has junk and ideas being worked on. Then saving that with another project name I can combine/bounce tracks and remove most plugs (deleting the "original" tracks) as I continue. It is basically using the sandbox to create stems and the other for mixing/mastering. If you use this, I highly recommend using detailed names so you can easily find the pieces later if needed.
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guigz2000
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 04:40:55
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Another option is to use the Freeze button (In theory it should freeze all plugins, so Prochannel effects "should" be freezed.Haven't tested).It's better than to remove plugins since it won't affect sound. A freezed track will just be raw audio...
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Sir Les
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 07:16:40
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I also agree that the cpu may be the suspected culpret..So..reduce the IRQ calling or polling, by reducing redundant devices first in BIOS...not in control panel...As I believe if you turn things off in control panel the drivers are still loaded up for the devices not being used, which can cause conflicts with other drivers being used.?..(perhaps even a virtual IRQ is tagged and held?) So removal of those devices by turning off the devices IN THE BIOS, removes them drivers from the driver list in WIN and they do not show up in control panel at all....(windows will poll the list continually to see if any changes occur.)...just another processes one does not want happening when recording or doing playback in DAWs. Next step is to turn off apps and background services which are not necessary to run while doing recording or playback of audio. That task is system specific...also remove things from the start up /msconfig, that boot up with win that are not necessary. Making your system exclusive for the task at hand, may calm down the interference.
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Sir Les
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 07:19:50
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Also have you done any tweaking in Bios, turning off the "speed step" and "virtual tech" stuff?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 07:43:59
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One thing I haven't seen addressed in this thread are your hard drives. How many, what size & type are you running and what % capacity is used/free on them? A deficiency in this area can also be a possible source of frustration/instability/bottlenecks.
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guigz2000
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 08:14:07
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Bristol_Jonesey One thing I haven't seen addressed in this thread are your hard drives. How many, what size & type are you running and what % capacity is used/free on them? A deficiency in this area can also be a possible source of frustration/instability/bottlenecks.
Yep...I asked if he has a dedicated HDD for sessions. No answer yet. His mainboard is quite old and has first gen SATA. Getting a dedicated SATA HDD (if none available) is definitely a way to enhance streaming. Try not to use the PATA (IDE) connector for sessions HDD. SATA has speedier.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 08:43:28
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Ah right. Thanks guigz. Until we know the answer to this then we're all shooting in the dark.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 10:56:04
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guigz2000 Another option is to use the Freeze button (In theory it should freeze all plugins, so Prochannel effects "should" be freezed.Haven't tested).It's better than to remove plugins since it won't affect sound. A freezed track will just be raw audio...
You know, that's exactly what I've been doing, and it has worked well. Usually it is a bit of a pain, since in the mixing process it means unfreezing and refreezing often, but since I usually begin and end a mix with drums in one way or another, freezing the 8 - 13 tracks of those usually does the trick. With that said, I have encountered a situation when freezing tracks actually amplified this problem! I've never figured out what was up with that. I'd posted here about it and got all sorts of different possible answers, but not a one of them made too much sense. I do recall that one person suggested that freezing a track writes everything to the hard drive (just like a track mixdown basically), but that means transfer of more data to and from the drive so can, in some cases, depending on what is causing the hang-ups, make things worse when dealing only with audio tracks. Frankly, I'm not sure I fully understand that line of thinking, but just thought I'd mention it here.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:05:47
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guigz2000
Bristol_Jonesey One thing I haven't seen addressed in this thread are your hard drives. How many, what size & type are you running and what % capacity is used/free on them? A deficiency in this area can also be a possible source of frustration/instability/bottlenecks.
Yep...I asked if he has a dedicated HDD for sessions. No answer yet. His mainboard is quite old and has first gen SATA. Getting a dedicated SATA HDD (if none available) is definitely a way to enhance streaming. Try not to use the PATA (IDE) connector for sessions HDD. SATA has speedier.
Hey fellas. Sorry about not answering this one. So many helpful people on this one that I've missed a few responses! I have PLENTY of HD space. Right now I have about 280 GB on my main drive and about 150 GB on a backup drive (not to mention another 30 GB on a partition). So I'm curious, because I've heard different stories on this: Are you saying that saving a project to my second drive (the "backup") and loading it from there can help? I am actually doing that in some cases anyway, but not sure I've noticed any difference and, like I said, have gotten mixed opinions on the separate drive use theory anyway.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:06:51
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Sir Les Also have you done any tweaking in Bios, turning off the "speed step" and "virtual tech" stuff?
That would have to be a definitive "no!" lol Any instructions on that are welcomed, but I'm no guru and would hate to go from staggering to wheelchair.
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scook
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:07:26
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Having projects on a separate internal physical drive is one of the biggest performance boosts you can do.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:08:59
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Sir Les I also agree that the cpu may be the suspected culpret..So..reduce the IRQ calling or polling, by reducing redundant devices first in BIOS...not in control panel...As I believe if you turn things off in control panel the drivers are still loaded up for the devices not being used, which can cause conflicts with other drivers being used.?..(perhaps even a virtual IRQ is tagged and held?) So removal of those devices by turning off the devices IN THE BIOS, removes them drivers from the driver list in WIN and they do not show up in control panel at all....(windows will poll the list continually to see if any changes occur.)...just another processes one does not want happening when recording or doing playback in DAWs. Next step is to turn off apps and background services which are not necessary to run while doing recording or playback of audio. That task is system specific...also remove things from the start up /msconfig, that boot up with win that are not necessary. Making your system exclusive for the task at hand, may calm down the interference.
Sir Les, I don't think going into my bios each time I want to disable modules in ProChannels would be even remotely practical. In fact, it would be downright impossible. You must mean something else?
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:10:42
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scook Having projects on a separate internal physical drive is one of the biggest performance boosts you can do.
Wow. Ok, so you're saying I just load and save to my separate drive (it is USB connected--will that provide the same benefit too?) and that should help in general to boost performance?
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scook
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:13:19
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An external USB2 (I have no experience with USB3) drive will not provide the same advantage. Also this assumes you are not using SSDs becuase the primary advantage to a multi-HD setup is more arms and platters, the physical stuff that makes HDs work. The reason a USB2 drive will not provide much help is the performance of the USB2 connection.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:22:18
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LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...WE HAVE A WINNER! While this doesn't exactly solve the underlying problem of needing more giddy-up in my system, bandso's suggestion about turning off unused ProChannel modules turns out to be the most likely, and quick, way to resolve my problem. There I was just now, working on a new mix (this one 43 tracks), when I noticed something peculiar. All of my ProChannels were turned off. I had just started this mix the other day, but thought I'd gotten a few things up and runnin'. Maybe I did and just haven't gotten back around to those tracks yet. Anyway...I digress... I proceeded to go through and check the ProChannels and turn on those I needed and, suddenly, at the click of one button, when I got to a certain point in this process, the very beginning of the stutter playback began to show itself. I turned off that last "on" click of a channel, and Viola'!, smooth as silk again. There was literally that ONE point when the problem showed, albeit only slightly, which was exactly with the on/off of another channel! So, we know that is exactly the first and most important thing I can do to ensure non-necessary use of system resources. Thanks bandso for bringing up what should have been the most immediate and obvious thing to consider anyway!! lol
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mettelus
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:45:03
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That just adds fuel to the fire for this thread.
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grizwalter
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Re: From 3 to 7 Gig of RAM, and NOTHIN'!
2013/12/28 11:46:10
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AND A LOSER! Just for the record, because this was addressed and I noted some issues in the past with it, I further went on to freeze ALL the project tracks, figuring I'd go back and unfreeze one at a time to test things in that regard as well. Playback became impossible, at any audio preference settings. I truly do NOT understand this anomaly, but can attest that freezing audio tracks is not necessarily a benefit to project performance and, in fact, can be quite a hindrance. Maybe someone can explain that little nugget to me.
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