ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 16:02:35
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jclampitt
I get what you are saying ch.huey, but honestly, this is what we get for using software requiring this type of online activation. This right here is the problem with that way of doing things. If the company goes under or your internet goes out you're F****d and that's the end of it. We are lucky that the ability to activate and use Sonar didn't end back in November. And we are even more lucky that Bandlab bought Sonar and it's not completely dead at this point. But still, it just goes to show it's a bad idea to buy and depend any software that doesn't come on a disc with everything required to activate it offline. At least if you expect to be able to open a project and work on it in 10 years. Bandlab has done an amazingly generous thing by making this software free, instead of just letting it die, or charging us for the new version. I guess my point is live and learn, and don't pay for software that doesn't come on a disc with an activation key if you plan on using it indefinitely. It sucks but it is what it is.
I don't disagree with you, but before I jumped on board, I emailed customer service at Cakewalk over this very issue. To quote verbatim from the email, "To clarify when you pay upfront you do get a product that is permanently unlocked with 12 months of rolling updates." I opted in for lifetime, and I had every impression that once I paid for it, I'd always have access, even if the company goes under. This was further bolstered by the idea, which I think Noel said (?), if no one would buy Cakewalk in any way, and the promise of an unlock key so no one is stranded. I'm not stupid, so I know quoting from a company that doesn't exist holds no water. What they told me then is not binding to Bandlab. It is the agnosticism of whether or not this 'product that is permanently unlocked' will actually be unlocked by the new company that runs the activation servers is the most salient question. It's a mixed message so far - the servers are being moved, and will stay online. Past that, it's uncertain. To be clear - I am not whining about what should be, asking for a refund or any of that nonsense. I am willing to wait to find out as I don't anticipate the servers going offline any time soon, and I am grateful for what Bandlab has done. But I am running Firewire soundcards that have been discontinued, will stop having new drivers soon, and intend on upgrading to Thunderbolt in the somewhat nearish future. That means new motherboard, and a new installation of SPlat for legacy projects. I have no idea if I will be able to open legacy projects in SPlat, as the 'product that is permanently unlocked' which was THE biggest selling point when I bought it for me, future access, will or will not be something that happens. If not, how I archive is going to have to change. I might or might not like the answer, I can accept that part, and I'm willing to be patient, but I am just trying to point out that CbB is not Sonar Platinum, so future access to the software might not matter for most purposes, but it does matter for some. For anyone trying to put projects to bed and open them, it is a practical concern. I consider anything that's happened since the company shutdown last year a gift, to be clear, and I am grateful for Bandlab. But it's not unreasonable to ask if the gift has batteries included, because if not, you have to go out and get them yourselves, while still being grateful for the gift, to put it that way. Bandlab has honored many of the commitments of Cakewalk beyond what it legally has had to do - I just don't know how far they will continue, and before I spend a lot of time bouncing every single track to the most basic generic Cakewalk compatible version possible after setting up elaborate tracks, I'd just like to know if it needs to be done that way. Again, whether or not I like the answer, at some point there will need to be one and I will have to adjust me methods to conform to what is, not what I wish it were. bitflipper
If you had problems loading a SONAR 6 project in Platinum, it was almost certainly because you were missing some third-party plugins that had been used in the original project.
The jump from 32 bit to 64 bit in Platinum was a problem in and of itself with some plugins. I still don't understand why some plugins that were stock with Sonar 6 show up as missing when it seems like there are equivalent ones, and it looks like some DX plugins were used in Sonar 6 native and 3rd party that, had I known I'd be opening it up in a program that doesn't support DX plugins to begin with even if I had them, I'd have printed them. I'm learning from my mistakes, of which there are many, which is why I'm concerned about future access to the program. It wasted a lot of time trying to approximate certain sounds from the previous two track masters, but I did it ... with stuff in Sonar Platinum that I don't know if I'll have access to. A lot of work I might lose, and as much as I am for bouncing EVERYTHING down to just audio, that takes time to do. If it's not necessary I don't need to do it and won't, but if it is I have to figure out how to fit 8 hours more into each day before the plug gets pulled on Splat. I'm not trying to complain, just point out a small pragmatic concern that I have which will impact that thing no one can refund - time. I understand there may be reasons (piracy that deters people from the free version? I know how much I don't know that is going on with all this) that Bandlab may not want to at some point do this. I will adjust, but knowing what to adjust to is a reasonable request, and one I'm not demanding now, just trying to point out that it will at some point need to be resolved and there is reason to be concerned with Sonar Platinum after transitioning over to Bandlab. If you can't ever install Splat and its plugins, you can't then "leave them installed for some of the included plugins you may have got as part of your paid membership."
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ionecake
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 16:17:54
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Thanks, Noel! Good to know, and hope you keep long-term compatibility like that!
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ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 16:22:13
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
As bitflipper mentions. we support all prior versions of the software dating all the way back to the 90's. You can even save projects in the new version and reopen it in versions going back 10 years and it will work. New features will be stripped obviously.
How projects sound could change to some extent due to a variety of factors, plugins, etc in some circumstances but its rare. Plugin's are the most common element that makes compatibility hard. The best way to preserve projects for long term hibernation is to additionally freeze the tracks and render final stems into the project as a backup. Then save the file and archive it. I've found that to be more than enough to recover even really old projects.
This is very true, and what features exactly will be stripped from Splat to CbB, I don't know 100%. I might be fretting over nothing. It's just an uncertainty. You're absolutely correct about preserving them by freezing the tracks and to render final stems. If this were only my concern with my final mix, I'd not worry too much about this. But when I'm going back into a project that I had 8 different mixes of, all of which are substantially different from the final mix but one, which includes unused guitar parts, unused bass parts, unused horn sections, unused vocals (etc), that I may decide to use at some point on a completely different project sped up and mutilated, that means 8 different CWB files to freeze the tracks and render final stems to. I don't know what I might want to do with it in the future. I do know now I'm finding old files *.wav that have effects printed to them that I wish weren't there. I have no idea where the original project files were or what random cheap/free DAW I used to create it or when, so there's no going back. I'd like to avoid that problem. Right now on my plate, that's 71 final mixes in Splat, and you add in the unused mixes at a conservative 3 per final mix, I'm going to be freezing audio in at least 213 projects to save as bundles that are able to be opened with effects printed, without them printed and so on. I can think of a variety of ways to speed this up, but I don't know if that's necessary. Or I could just focus on the final mix, and trust that the less important stuff will be opened by an unlocked future version of Sonar Platinum that I can open. If not, I go into each project and decide if each different .cwp file is worth archiving, and how much is worth archiving while I sit at my computer and do it. I'm not complaining - just trying to realistically plan and I put a lot of projects into Sonar Platinum. Bad luck. I just want to make the best of a bad situation, which is difficult without knowing how fully bad it may be. I'm beyond glad Cakewalk by Bandlab will grow and continue and I appreciate how you and Meng are jumping in on the forums and I really, really don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the past, just wondering what will happen and how to adjust to that reality, which I'm lucky I even get to do. Thanks
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bitflipper
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 17:14:44
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I have no inside information, but if I was sitting around the conference table brainstorming this, I'd suggest that the simplest, easiest solution is to just keep the server going indefinitely. Once migrated over to BandLab's hosting service it would cost them next to nothing to keep it up.
I would in fact not encourage them to go with the permanent license option, as that would be an open invitation to piracy. Why worry about people pirating a dead product, you ask? Well, keep in mind that SONAR Platinum includes components that neither Cakewalk nor BandLab own, products paid for via royalties from SONAR sales. No sales, no royalties. BandLab has no right to give other people's stuff away.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 20:09:37
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☄ Helpfulby ch.huey 2018/04/08 20:48:10
ch.huey
I'm not complaining - just trying to realistically plan and I put a lot of projects into Sonar Platinum. Bad luck. I just want to make the best of a bad situation, which is difficult without knowing how fully bad it may be. I'm beyond glad Cakewalk by Bandlab will grow and continue and I appreciate how you and Meng are jumping in on the forums and I really, really don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the past, just wondering what will happen and how to adjust to that reality, which I'm lucky I even get to do.
ch.huey I'm impressed with your forward planning organization but with all due respect I think you are overthinking this and trying to plan for a scenario that in all likelihood won't happen. We're don't plan on taking out any features that could affect the playback of projects - the program will evolve not de-evolve. We have always been extremely careful with compatibility over the years and go to great pains to retain even obscure settings for this very reason. In short your old projects will continue to load in CbB without problems. And regarding my earlier statement about unlocking back in Dec it was made solely in the context of the company going under permanently with no transition - which is not what transpired, fortunately for us all.
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jude77
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 20:22:19
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☄ Helpfulby bapu 2018/04/08 22:26:52
bitflipper
What if a meteor levels Redmond, and the only server backup is in Singlish? We can imagine all kinds of troubling scenarios, but it only serves to raise our cortisol levels. So many other things to worry about these days, such as whether I'll be able to afford shoes after the looming trade war gets into full swing.
The question isn't whether we'll be able to afford shoes after the trade war. Heck, I'll go without shoes, the question is will we be able to afford more plugins!!
You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach. Windows 10 Home Edition 64-bit /6th Generation Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6700 Processor (8M Cache, up to 4.0 GHz)/16GB (1x16GB) DDR4 2133MHz SDRAM Memory/ NVIDIA(R) GeForce(R) GT 730 with 2GB DDR3 Graphics Memory/ Dell KB216 Wired Multi-Media Keyboard English Black/ 802.11ac + Bluetooth 4.0/Integrated 7.1 with WAVE MAXXAudio Pro/Wireless 3165 driver
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bitflipper
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 20:49:31
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☄ Helpfulby Steve_Karl 2018/04/09 03:17:26
Something that has been overlooked in this discussion is that the possibility of providing a permanent license was devised during the brief period between Gibson pulling the plug and BandLab taking over. At that point in time, no one knew if the server could be kept running. With Gibson not paying its bills, they would have eventually lost their hosting service.
Noel came up with the idea of delivering a license-free version of SONAR as a potential way of mitigating the worst-case scenario, should it come to that. A great idea under the circumstances, but those circumstances have changed. The need for that doomsday option no longer exists.
Today's situation is very different. Now that there's somebody willing to keep the server running, and no motivation for them to shut it off, I think we can rest easy. It's actually good news that the offer of an unlocked SONAR isn't going to happen - good because it now doesn't need to happen.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 21:21:34
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
ch.huey
I'm not complaining - just trying to realistically plan and I put a lot of projects into Sonar Platinum. Bad luck. I just want to make the best of a bad situation, which is difficult without knowing how fully bad it may be. I'm beyond glad Cakewalk by Bandlab will grow and continue and I appreciate how you and Meng are jumping in on the forums and I really, really don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the past, just wondering what will happen and how to adjust to that reality, which I'm lucky I even get to do.
ch.huey I'm impressed with your forward planning organization but with all due respect I think you are overthinking this and trying to plan for a scenario that in all likelihood won't happen. We're don't plan on taking out any features that could affect the playback of projects - the program will evolve not de-evolve. We have always been extremely careful with compatibility over the years and go to great pains to retain even obscure settings for this very reason. In short your old projects will continue to load in CbB without problems.
And regarding my earlier statement about unlocking back in Dec it was made solely in the context of the company going under permanently with no transition - which is not what transpired, fortunately for us all.
Noel, thanks for responding. I jumped into Cakewalk just a little over a year before a scenario that I thought next to impossible happening did actually happen, so I'm trying to err on the side of caution right now and not knowing what to do is worse than an unpleasant answer about what I'll need to do. That being said, I stuck with Platinum and pulled all the workload in knowing that the platform had an uncertain, possibly short, future, and Meng came along so that was another improbability. I'm beyond happy with the program so I'm definitely not jumping ship in regard to CbB. I think the safest bet would be to start saving now but leave projects open, and then pull them into an install of CbB on a VM machine install that has never seen a Sonar Platinum installation before, and see if things start going missing to ensure compatibility to really check since I'm not sure what I'm using that was or wasn't acquired by Bandlab yet, but it is very heavy on the stock Sonar plugins/channel strips. If nothing seems lost then I think when the final release of CbB comes along, I'll just transfer everything over to that program and save through CbB. I'm not going to switch over to CbB just yet, but if the projects do load in it, and back through Platinum without any difference by the time of final release, it makes more sense to archive them in a live program instead of a dead one, and they'll be able to be accessed via both as a CWB. I am a little nuts with the organizaiton but... I'm a Zappa fan. I heard about his vault growing up so I got into the habit of keeping everything back to my high school boom box cassette recordings, and it's all been digitized at this point, mostly in Sonar in the last year. It's a bit obsessive sometimes but with today's technology but, a minidisc recording of a rehearsal from over 10 years ago can be the basis of a sample library. I could only pull some of them off by recording them through the line out due to the defunct Sony program for transferring the digital data, that wouldn't let me use one minidisc to transfer it to my computer if it was recorded on my older minidisc. It was a PITA, but I managed to get it off the thing eventually, but I'm wary of anything proprietary at this point. So I'm trying to transfer everything over in one format, then export to WAV if possible to divorce it from any specific platform for future compatibility. I know Zappa did something similar with his 60 era tape recordings onto his Synclavier when that came along, so I've kept as much as possible for most of my life. Doing so been far more useful than even I thought it would, as I never imagined how easy it would get to sample things quickly via software, and warp the most random noises or snippet from a rehearsal into something musical. If you say it's unlikely at this point, I'll take your word on it. I know there's a lot going on on your end that I simply can't know, but as long as I can still get the end result of keeping the projects archived properly and not kicking myself in the teeth in the future without knowing it (again), I'll be happy. It's just a lot right now for me that I have to make a decision on so it's been looming, for me at least. I got a big wake up call with the projects in Cakewalk 6 done on another computer and some I did with my own software in how not to archive stuff. Thank you sincerely for responding to this issue.
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chris.r
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 21:28:32
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
ch.huey
I'm not complaining - just trying to realistically plan and I put a lot of projects into Sonar Platinum. Bad luck. I just want to make the best of a bad situation, which is difficult without knowing how fully bad it may be. I'm beyond glad Cakewalk by Bandlab will grow and continue and I appreciate how you and Meng are jumping in on the forums and I really, really don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the past, just wondering what will happen and how to adjust to that reality, which I'm lucky I even get to do.
ch.huey I'm impressed with your forward planning organization but with all due respect I think you are overthinking this and trying to plan for a scenario that in all likelihood won't happen. We're don't plan on taking out any features that could affect the playback of projects - the program will evolve not de-evolve. We have always been extremely careful with compatibility over the years and go to great pains to retain even obscure settings for this very reason. In short your old projects will continue to load in CbB without problems.
And regarding my earlier statement about unlocking back in Dec it was made solely in the context of the company going under permanently with no transition - which is not what transpired, fortunately for us all.
After reading many of Noel's replies to the question for offline activation, all I can see when I read between the lines is the answer: "we very, very much don't want it to happen". Of course we don't know what is the problem, we've not been told any details about it, that's understandable it's a business. All we can do is only speculate. But speculate is not what I'm looking for, I'm looking on my hard drive and wish there will be an activation key for my SPlat (for which I paid huge money, as for my budget) backed up for future PC rebuilds/changes. Like for example switching from 32-bit to 64-bit somewhere in future, but I don't know how long will it take yet. Or any system re-install in general. Online activation looks toy-ish, sorry to say that, a gadget for young people to play a little with it, hard to plan long-term based on such software. Look at the Harrison Mixbus, you just put your activation key file on disk and you're all set.
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gabrielfran
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 21:34:11
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Currently the old customer database is still active and so will activate through command center. Its not sure how long this will stay active so you should transition over to the CbB version as soon as possible.
Sorry Noel, but I do not understand. I have a paid version of Sonar Professional, for more than a year if I remember correctly. I have already registered as a user on the BandLab website ... is it necessary to do something else?
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paulo
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 21:45:44
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bitflipper
Today's situation is very different. Now that there's somebody willing to keep the server running, and no motivation for them to shut it off, I think we can rest easy. It's actually good news that the offer of an unlocked SONAR isn't going to happen - good because it now doesn't need to happen.
That would be all well and good if Noel himself was not here actively encouraging people to ditch Platinum asap and saying that the future ability to activate legacy products is currently uncertain. Maybe I'm missing something, but as it stands I'm not really filled with confidence that I will always be able to use what I have already paid for, which is contrary to previous statements.
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ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 21:56:32
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chris.r
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
ch.huey
I'm not complaining - just trying to realistically plan and I put a lot of projects into Sonar Platinum. Bad luck. I just want to make the best of a bad situation, which is difficult without knowing how fully bad it may be. I'm beyond glad Cakewalk by Bandlab will grow and continue and I appreciate how you and Meng are jumping in on the forums and I really, really don't want to sound like I'm complaining about the past, just wondering what will happen and how to adjust to that reality, which I'm lucky I even get to do.
ch.huey I'm impressed with your forward planning organization but with all due respect I think you are overthinking this and trying to plan for a scenario that in all likelihood won't happen. We're don't plan on taking out any features that could affect the playback of projects - the program will evolve not de-evolve. We have always been extremely careful with compatibility over the years and go to great pains to retain even obscure settings for this very reason. In short your old projects will continue to load in CbB without problems.
And regarding my earlier statement about unlocking back in Dec it was made solely in the context of the company going under permanently with no transition - which is not what transpired, fortunately for us all.
After reading many of Noel's replies to the question for offline activation, all I can see when
I read between the lines is the answer: "we very, very much don't want it to happen". Of course
we don't know what is the problem, we've not been told any details about it, that's
understandable it's a business. All we can do is only speculate. But speculate is not what I'm
looking for, I'm looking on my hard drive and wish there will be an activation key for my SPlat
(for which I paid huge money, as for my budget) backed up for future PC rebuilds/changes. Like
for example switching from 32-bit to 64-bit somewhere in future, but I don't know how long will
it take yet. Or any system re-install in general. Online activation looks toy-ish, sorry to say
that, a gadget for young people to play a little with it, hard to plan long-term based on such
software. Look at the Harrison Mixbus, you just put your activation key file on disk and you're all
set.
I think we're past the era of 'buy the program, here's your key, it's yours' at this point. I wish it weren't the case, but that seems to be the trend. It feels wrong to me but the world doesn't function by my feelings. When I was running a band I wrote original material for, the money for Sonar was not an option since I was already throwing money out the window trying to create original music, younger and paying for every piece of gear that broke. If I knew someone who had it or another program, you sneak into (censored univeristy)'s rehearsal rooms over the weekend to record and borrow their computer to track drums, like you lend them your keyboard later. Software was like a physical commodity, you lend it out, finish your work then give it back among local bands/musicians. I understand what you mean, and with Moore's law of computing having brought us to a state where I have practically unlimited storage now, whereas 10 years ago I had to worry about what happened to my only 200gb hard drive with audio data on it, it's never been easier to keep backup copies and backups of your backups, so keeping the programs as backups seems natural, but things change. Sampling on the Korg Triton LE I bought in 2005 was frustratingly impossible, but sampling has completely changed when I stepped away briefly. That's opened up a lot of doors to the old stuff I have kept over the years, and old free samples I downloaded back in the day and never used. It's almost too much now, even with free stuff, unlike back when I went at it with a band when I had to make the most of very little that you could physically borrow. If only I'd recorded the MIDI tracks of my keyboard players over the years... it just never occurred to me I'd have the option to use it in the future to trigger free great sounding samples. By that same token the stuff I have and love in DirectX plugins or 32 bit versions will not work with Sonar anymore, and at some point, I'm going to have to get off Win7 just like I did WinXP. Firewire is on the way out even though it handles all my needs right now. After getting screwed by Korg Support a decade ago, back during the no money-in a band phase with a usb stick to use software, I swore off ever doing so again but even I have an iLok now because it's unavoidable. I don't like it, but Antares doesn't care what I like for their Mic Mod program. There are alternatives though, for most other things that quite good. I hate using my OS install with my audio on it at all to connect to the internet, but I had to finally break down for Command Center and I think increasingly it's going to be more and more updates delivered directly by remote servers. I'm drawing the line at working online or on the cloud, or keeping anything stored only there, but the world changed to this model and I don't think it's going back. It's either adjust, take advantage of what good changes there have been (and plan on how to archive when something goes out of business now that things have gotten cheaper), or just give up and never buy software again or record only in Audacity and export everything to WAV. Price vs. convenience at this point, software isn't viewed like a physical commodity you can lend someone anymore. I'm glad CbB platform is free, to be honest, since it allows a lot of potential collaborations with musicians I know who moved across country in a way that is a lot easier than 2 track mixdowns and all that BS. I'm excited, it's just a period of transition and it is a transition. I'm gonna run with it but not so blindly I hit a wall.
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mkerl
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 22:40:54
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☄ Helpfulby ch.huey 2018/04/09 01:38:39
Well, after all what happened and after surprisingly experience NOel and Mr. Meng to be communicative and willing to establish transparency and confidence, the quick publishing of CbB, the quick updates to Bandlab assistant, I have no doubt, that the Cakewalk team will find a sufficient solution for the problem with future activation of legacy software and plug-ins . . . Intel announced i9 multi-core, it will take some months, but hardware will have to be upgraded. And sure we want to use what we bought. But again, I have no doubt, it will be possible. Since Noel adressed this question as early as in december. @ch.huey I'm so glad you love to make it short  (Sorry couldn't resist) Cheers 
Nothing to do but playing (Ch. Parker)
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mkerl
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 22:54:23
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☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/04/09 10:22:05
bitflipper
But that's only one of many issues Noel & Co. are dealing with - the only practical strategy is to keep the existing server up and running and worry about moving it later. Don't sweat it. At least until the next meteor shower.
Yesterday night I heared Tyranno Saurus in the backyard . . . . or maybe it has been just Russian mercenary soldiers . . . or Erdogans muslim army? When we soon have civil war in Europe the activation of legacy software will be a smaller problem . . . Yeah, there are in fact other things to worry about, that's completely right. All the best to you Cheers
Nothing to do but playing (Ch. Parker)
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zombiequeen
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/08 23:15:49
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bitflipperToday's situation is very different. Now that there's somebody willing to keep the server running... But, what we have been just told is that the server won't be running for legacy versions. We HAVE to move on to CbB to keep it activated. Sonar just became a connection-ware. For me that's abandon ship call.
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ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 01:37:17
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mkerl
Well, after all what happened and after surprisingly experience NOel and Mr. Meng to be communicative and willing to establish transparency and confidence, the quick publishing of CbB, the quick updates to Bandlab assistant, I have no doubt, that the Cakewalk team will find a sufficient solution for the problem with future activation of legacy software and plug-ins . . . Intel announced i9 multi-core, it will take some months, but hardware will have to be upgraded. And sure we want to use what we bought. But again, I have no doubt, it will be possible. Since Noel adressed this question as early as in december.
@ch.huey I'm so glad you love to make it short (Sorry couldn't resist)
Cheers
I'm often complimented on my love for making it short. Usually worded differently though and shouted at me. In all seriousness, Noel's answer is the best I think we'll get, or Bandlab can/will give, and it works for me if I find they're interchangeable once the full version is released. Running a VM machine on my computer, installing CbB and opening up the programs, and not seeing 'xxx missing due to yyyy' or seeing anything different will be the acid test. It seems like they should be interchangeable, and anything that's not can be adjusted based on what won't save in CbB. Some projects I did years ago had things like out of tune trumpets, that have annoyed me beyond belief, and finding melodyne, which I had no access to back then if it was even in existence, allows me to keep the almost right performance and just nudge it, as well as one wrong bass note from a bassist who moved to Europe the week after recording. I'll keep working in Sonar Platinum, but I can keep my projects open long enough after completion until the first release of CbB to make sure I'm future compliant as I don't see CbB going anywhere anytime soon, however uncertain it may be with Sonar Platinum. If there are problems they'll be dealt with on a per problem basis, but I've been chafing at not knowing. This is my solution for me at least and I'm satisfied as it has not been hand wringing about the right to keep the software per se, but archiving in a format I can't open properly. Saving everything as CWB bundles in CbB instead of Platinum, provided there are no differences, is the easiest answer. It's just a bit of a wait until a first official version to test it out now. This is what will satisfy me at least in terms of forward compatibility, as saving in an end of life program is not ideal to begin with. At least this is a known solution which I can live with, instead of wondering what solutions I will have to try if, (insert unknown here). That's what I care about.
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ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 01:45:17
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☄ Helpfulby eikelbijter 2018/04/09 18:35:49
zombiequeen
bitflipperToday's situation is very different. Now that there's somebody willing to keep the server running...
But, what we have been just told is that the server won't be running for legacy versions. We HAVE to move on to CbB to keep it activated. Sonar just became a connection-ware. For me that's abandon ship call.
No, there was never any statement it would stop running. It was said that it WILL run, but for how long no one knows, and what happens after that no one knows. That's more or less the same situation with Cakewalk before Gibson shut it down. It's not any different than Cakewalk creating a new platform, and keeping the servers running for Platinum themselves. The only difference is there was an implicit promise of an unlock by Cakewalk, if it was ever needed. Sonar has been connection-ware since Platinum. You just have to create a bandlab account and link your Cakewalk ID. You have no need to move on to CbB. You don't have to install it or use it, but it's probably a good idea to eventually migrate over, which again, would be the same situation as if Cakewalk were still running. It's not the best solution, but it's far from the worst, and not terribly different than what may have happened if Gibson hadn't shut down Cakewalk from the user's perspective. You never were promised an unlock before Gibson shut them down, only that they would activate it. Problem is 'they' is a different company now, and 'they' are doing a lot right at the moment in my eyes. I'd wait before jumping ship, you might just end up hitting the deck of the port since this ship has yet to even really sail. Give it time.
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The Maillard Reaction
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2018/04/09 03:00:17
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☄ Helpfulby Steve_Karl 2018/04/09 03:26:09
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post edited by Splat Chat O'samplemashy - 2018/12/06 13:19:29
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Cactus Music
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 03:22:13
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Two things after attempting to read all this..
Why are people still obsessing about the server issue?
We've been told it is not an issue, end of story.
And forget the "unlock key" for SPLAT. it is now Bandlabs property and they have done better than that and have just given us the software free. And my guess it will always be free to those holding the golden ticket which shall not be named. At this point it is free but they do have control over who gets it. An unlock key for old Splat would open the doors to piracy again just as Bit has said. It's how it works now.
PS- Throughout the history of recording it's always been the responsibility and challenge of studios to store old recordings. At some point, you might upgrade from a 4 track tape machine to a 16 track tape machine. Now what about all those 4 track masters?
So this has always been an issue and the solution is either keep all the old equipment or move on and hope you won't need to do a re mix. Nothing has changed.
I can open files I made in 2004 with Cakewalk Guitar Studio. Sure they don't open without issue, but they do open and all I need to do is replace the missing plug ins. This always results in a much improved version because plug ins only get better, not worse.
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Steve_Karl
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 03:36:55
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mister happy
Cakewalk Inc. is still registered as a corporation in the state of Massachusetts.
It has not actually shut down, but when it does it has to either make good on its commitments to it creditors or file for something like a chapter 7 bankruptcy so that a arbitrator may manage the debts. As end users we represent a very large group of creditors and we would be sure to get the attention of a judge.
A bankruptcy court can arrange for a trust to be created, with some of the proceeds from the sale of the office furniture and the I.P. so that an authorization system may be funded to serve in perpetuity.
The Bandlab deal has been arbitrarily described as a purchase of assets with none of the liabilities. Deals like this have precedents, and in general it not considered ethical for a corporation to sell off its assets while it hides its liabilities behind a cloud of obfuscation.
Presumably Cakewalk just got a pot of gold from Bandlab. Cakewalk Inc. should either make a commitment to its customers or Bandlab should step up and claim the responsibility and make an actual bona fide commitment to keep authorization of Cakewalk Inc products possible in perpetuity.
This issue has nothing to do with how much free stuff has been made available, or how much is promised in the future. These gifts and promises amount to sort of shell game. It seems as if it is hoped that we will look in one direction without thinking to much about what should be happening. What should be happening is that Cakewalk Inc. should make good on its commitments, and Bandlab should be free to pursue success as well.
Bandlab puts itself in an awkward position, made even more so when its representatives attempt to convince us to abandon our interest in Cakewalk Inc.'s commitments and accept a new Bandlab product as a substitute.
Any customer of Cakewalk has a right to expect access to their existing licenses, without any need for explanation on the part of the licensee, regarding the choice to install and continue to use the licensed software for as long as a system will run it.
I maintain current licenses for lots of software while running older versions of those products for reasons of my own choosing.
If a software company, Cakewalk, Bandlab etc. can not commit to providing continued access to authorized installations then it seems unwise for an end user to expend any effort in becoming proficient with that companies software.
I would like to make use of SONAR Platinum for the next ten years or so. I have accepted the idea that the 10.17 version is static and will never change. I will no longer be surprised by things like nifty new black PRV changes and all that other good stuff. I think I can grow to like SONAR Platinum.
I would like to use SONAR Platinum but the thought that I may not be able to successfully install it five years from now makes me realize that it may not be worth spending another second with it. I am not currently interested in Platinum spin offs, and consider the suggestions that we should all be satisfied with migrating to the spin off product to be overly simplistic, patronizing, and boorish.
What I do know, is that 5 years from now I will still be able to activate my license to SONAR 8.5, and I will still be able to benefit from the time invested in becoming proficient with it.
I can't say the same thing for Cakewalk by Bandlab. It may turn out great or it may be sold to a venture capitalist who just got back from a great time at Burning Man. Who knows.
In the mean time I would like to feel reassured that Platinum is worth using.
If The Cakewalk insiders were true friends of the millions of customers that are claimed to use SONAR they would keep us abreast of proceedings at Cakewalk Inc. so that we may contact the appropriate parties when it is time to claim the need for protection regarding the ability to authorize the software licenses we have been granted.
Thank you.
And thank you for an excellent post.
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ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 04:03:03
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mister happy
Cakewalk Inc. is still registered as a corporation in the state of Massachusetts.
It has not actually shut down, but when it does it has to either make good on its commitments to it creditors or file for something like a chapter 7 bankruptcy so that a arbitrator may manage the debts. As end users we represent a very large group of creditors and we would be sure to get the attention of a judge.
A bankruptcy court can arrange for a trust to be created, with some of the proceeds from the sale of the office furniture and the I.P. so that an authorization system may be funded to serve in perpetuity.
The Bandlab deal has been arbitrarily described as a purchase of assets with none of the liabilities. Deals like this have precedents, and in general it not considered ethical for a corporation to sell off its assets while it hides its liabilities behind a cloud of obfuscation.
Presumably Cakewalk just got a pot of gold from Bandlab. Cakewalk Inc. should either make a commitment to its customers or Bandlab should step up and claim the responsibility and make an actual bona fide commitment to keep authorization of Cakewalk Inc products possible in perpetuity.
This issue has nothing to do with how much free stuff has been made available, or how much is promised in the future. These gifts and promises amount to sort of shell game. It seems as if it is hoped that we will look in one direction without thinking to much about what should be happening. What should be happening is that Cakewalk Inc. should make good on its commitments, and Bandlab should be free to pursue success as well.
Bandlab puts itself in an awkward position, made even more so when its representatives attempt to convince us to abandon our interest in Cakewalk Inc.'s commitments and accept a new Bandlab product as a substitute.
Any customer of Cakewalk has a right to expect access to their existing licenses, without any need for explanation on the part of the licensee, regarding the choice to install and continue to use the licensed software for as long as a system will run it.
I maintain current licenses for lots of software while running older versions of those products for reasons of my own choosing.
If a software company, Cakewalk, Bandlab etc. can not commit to providing continued access to authorized installations then it seems unwise for an end user to expend any effort in becoming proficient with that companies software.
I would like to make use of SONAR Platinum for the next ten years or so. I have accepted the idea that the 10.17 version is static and will never change. I will no longer be surprised by things like nifty new black PRV changes and all that other good stuff. I think I can grow to like SONAR Platinum.
I would like to use SONAR Platinum but the thought that I may not be able to successfully install it five years from now makes me realize that it may not be worth spending another second with it. I am not currently interested in Platinum spin offs, and consider the suggestions that we should all be satisfied with migrating to the spin off product to be overly simplistic, patronizing, and boorish.
What I do know, is that 5 years from now I will still be able to activate my license to SONAR 8.5, and I will still be able to benefit from the time invested in becoming proficient with it.
I can't say the same thing for Cakewalk by Bandlab. It may turn out great or it may be sold to a venture capitalist who just got back from a great time at Burning Man. Who knows.
In the mean time I would like to feel reassured that Platinum is worth using.
If The Cakewalk insiders were true friends of the millions of customers that are claimed to use SONAR they would keep us abreast of proceedings at Cakewalk Inc. so that we may contact the appropriate parties when it is time to claim the need for protection regarding the ability to authorize the software licenses we have been granted.
Thank you.
Let me know how the lawsuit goes. I'm interested in making music, not winning ideological arguments and have been trying to communicate with the people who can provide solutions to the issues I am dealing with due to this thing that is unforeseen, but is something that happened. Past tense. There is only the future. You don't speak for anyone but yourself, and you can file a lawsuit. You do not speak for me, so please speak to Cakewalk on the matter through your attorney. It does no one any good here. Start a forum thread about a class action if you'd like. Bandlab reads these forums and they are quite busy, so posts like mine which were asking something simple and practical need to be asked multiple times or they get drowned out by posts like this. I come to these forums and see these long posts not about practical things of how to proceed during the transition and how to accomplish things, but statements on general principle that aren't ever going to go anywhere. You won't get anything from Cakewalk, which was owned by Gibson. If you want to sue them stand in line. Please don't drown out the people who are trying to work with the transition if that is your view. Let your lawyer do the talking or start a separate thread. You have every right to your feelings and opinions, but if you want to be made to feel like Platinum is worth using, I don't think anything short of winning a lawsuit is going to reassure you at this point. We as platinum users are a commodity to Bandlab - that's how business works. They have an interest in keeping the Sonar user base, which is good for us. Saying the company may be 'a venture capitalist who just got back from a great time at Burning Man' is not respectful, polite nor does it show you're guided by reason on the issue. Trying to wade through all of these posts with my own vision problems is bad enough, but talking about trying to force Cakewalk to provide an unlock for IP they sold. Best of luck with that. If this was a serious concern to you, you'd already have your lawyer lined up and be filing a brief the moment Cakewalk shut down and no longer offered the updates. Noel answered my question and I proposed a solution a practical problem but it's getting buried underneath talk about suing Cakewalk, as if blood is going to come from a stone. I agree with you in principle on some points, but I'm too busy making music to care about anything other than moving forward. I'd suggest you do the same, or at least post in a different thread about suing something that is technically still registered as a company, so it's easier for people to find concrete answers.
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bitflipper
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 04:24:54
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Good luck suing Gibson. You'd be at the end of a very long line. From what I've been reading, Gibson's creditors have no interest in restructuring - they want the company. It's been suggested that this may have even been an intentional scheme: lend enormous amounts of money to a gullible and/or overzealous CEO that you know will never be able to repay, then get the whole company for pennies on the dollar. It's happened before. In fact, it's the basic business model for so-called "vulture capitalists".
Gibson borrowed a lot of money in order to branch out into markets they knew nothing about and had no history with. Like DAWs. Not one of Gibson's new ventures was ever profitable, including Cakewalk. Anybody remember those awful-sounding overpriced studio monitors Gibson was hawking? Guitar sales were supposed to save the day, but surprise! lowering the quality of said guitars while raising prices - turns out that doesn't do anything to spur sales. Who knew? Apparently, everyone but Gibson's top guy.
At any rate, you could indeed make a case that Gibson should honor commitments it made. It's just not going to happen. I'm sure there are a few ex-Gibson (or ex-Harmony) employees who'd like to see their retirement accounts honored, too.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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getfr
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 04:37:22
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mister happy
Cakewalk Inc. is still registered as a corporation in the state of Massachusetts.
It has not actually shut down, but when it does it has to either make good on its commitments to it creditors or file for something like a chapter 7 bankruptcy so that a arbitrator may manage the debts. As end users we represent a very large group of creditors and we would be sure to get the attention of a judge.
...
I agree your point of view and strongly agree.
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groverken
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 07:34:09
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bitflipper
Well, keep in mind that SONAR Platinum includes components that neither Cakewalk nor BandLab own, products paid for via royalties from SONAR sales. No sales, no royalties. BandLab has no right to give other people's stuff away.
I think this might be the issue several folks have. They paid for a version of SONAR with these components active - which if paid for by the royalties from SONAR sales must be part of their particular purchase. If a fresh install is required to utilise these components then there should be a way to activate them. I still have my old SONAR disks which used the old activation system - so the argument must be “if I can install and activate a 10 year old product and their associated components, why can’t I do it with a 6 month old version?”. I appreciate that BandLab is moving forward in a very positive manner but it’s never going to clear this one up until there is some form of key issued to users who might want it.
Windows 10 (64-bit), Cakewalk by BandLab, ASUS Z170-A, Intel i7 6700k, ATI Radeon R5 230 2048Mb, 32GB RAM, 500GB SDD system drive, 2 250GB SSD samples drives, 2TB HDD, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 (2nd generation), M-Audio Oxygen25, Korg i5M, Rapture Pro, Z3TA+2, SampleTank 3, BFD (2&3), Addictive Drums (1&2), EZdrummer2, MusicLab Real Guitar, EZmix2, Ozone 7 Elements, Neutron Elements, Overloud TH2, AmpliTube, T-RackS, Waves singles, Harrison Mixbus 4, Acoustica 7 Premium.Fender Stratocaster.
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The Maillard Reaction
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2018/04/09 13:33:32
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☄ Helpfulby ampfixer 2018/04/09 20:22:53
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post edited by Splat Chat O'samplemashy - 2018/12/06 13:19:44
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Steve_Karl
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 17:28:10
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☄ Helpfulby ampfixer 2018/04/09 20:22:48
An other good post mister happy
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chris.r
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 17:58:05
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groverken
bitflipper
Well, keep in mind that SONAR Platinum includes components that neither Cakewalk nor BandLab own, products paid for via royalties from SONAR sales. No sales, no royalties. BandLab has no right to give other people's stuff away.
I think this might be the issue several folks have. They paid for a version of SONAR with these components active - which if paid for by the royalties from SONAR sales must be part of their particular purchase. If a fresh install is required to utilise these components then there should be a way to activate them. I still have my old SONAR disks which used the old activation system - so the argument must be “if I can install and activate a 10 year old product and their associated components, why can’t I do it with a 6 month old version?”. I appreciate that BandLab is moving forward in a very positive manner but it’s never going to clear this one up until there is some form of key issued to users who might want it.
Agreed. And I'm gladly moving over to CbB from SPlat to enjoy working on fresh up-to-date engine but if anytime in future that one should go down too, I'm no more hoping, no more planning, for any alternative solutions to unlock Bandlab's version since it's only on-line activated. My concern is that I was told "if you paid 12 consecutive months of monthly payments or pay up-front - you own the software"... that's what I was told when buying Sonar Platinum. I paid up-front. Now I've been told that we're not sure how long the activation servers will run... oh dear.
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ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 18:14:01
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mister happy
What is not routine is for another entity to step in and offer an informal maybe, or maybe not, attempt at reassurance when that entity has carefully avoided the obligation to make a commitment regarding the subject.
Anyone who accepts the current situation as a best case scenario is simply backing themselves into the corner further and allowing themselves to become further committed to a reliance on a partner who has not actually made a commitment.
There is an easy solution. Cakewalk can do the right thing. Bandlab could have done the right thing, and made the purchase contingent on Cakewalk doing the right thing. There is a simple and right thing to do. It can be done, it should be done, and it should be done without anyone having to resort to unpleasantries.
Do the right thing.
I am not saying you aren't making many valid points. But why you are making them I don't understand. What are you asking be done specifically because you don't seem to be speaking to Bandlab directly, which is an option, to Noel who is transitioning over from Cakewalk, which is an option, or to Cakewalk via an attorney through a lawsuit which per your logic, would be routine. What is the point? Moral high ground? Preachers don't preach to the choir if they want something to change. Meng has made himself very available and you can be directly addressing this topic right to him if it's that important to you. I resent the idea that 'Anyone who accepts the current situation as a best case scenario is simply backing themselves into the corner further and allowing themselves to become further committed to a reliance on a partner who has not actually made a commitment.' I'm adapting and trying to accept what I can and can't change. I've made a point of asking about the servers, what happens with an unlock in the long run, and I'm not getting any answers that are absolute. I can either press for them repeatedly, and keep not getting them, or just work on making music and adapt to the situation. You and I both rolled the dice on this remote activation server for authorization. Don't pretend like you didn't know what you were getting into when you got into it. I had Cakewalk assure me prior to a sale, in writing, that this situation would not happen. If anyone could bring a lawsuit, it'd be me since I have documentation of what could be considered fraud, and demand a refund or an unlock through legal action. So what? It will go nowhere and there is no point in trying. The Right Thing - Here is a link to Meng's profile, so if you really want to ask about 'doing the right thing', contact him directly and ask. He's made himself available. http://forum.cakewalk.com/Profile/1212693/ Let us all know how it goes. Cakewalk is gone, whether in the fully legal sense or not I don't care. I just need to be able to archive projects and keep working on music. But don't pretend like you didn't know that this was a roll of the dice when you went from your permanent activation with previous software versions of Sonar to the activation server with Platinum. I can at least claim ignorance since this is my first time I've been able to actually buy the program and I had no choice but to use the activation servers. You had the opportunity, it seems, to not upgrade and not accept these terms, yet you did. But I'm not on a pulpit talking about The Right Thing, I'm doing the thing that lets me keep making music when something that sucks happens. You want the right thing. Well, you're not getting it, and what you're getting isn't good enough. Ask Meng. Explain it to him. He's made himself available. Report back when you actually know something and aren't venturing into legal technicalities and allusions to some sort of moral Right Thing. I'm not backing myself into any corner, by the way. I'm walking out of one, down a path and asking questions to the people who are paving it. You can always find another DAW and just let the whole thing go if you don't like how things are going. You have options. I'm choosing mine, you need to choose yours because you're clearly not satisfied but first it's the legality, now it's the morality, but what is the real issue you are trying to bring up? They're not releasing an unlock, full stop. That much we know. Cakewalk wouldn't have either. I don't pretend to understand the legalities involved with them doing it or not doing it. They're keeping the servers online - you seem to want that, and they're doing it. Cakewalk never made any promise that they could maintain the servers until the end of time, or what would happen when they stopped maintaining them, that I'm aware of. Let us know what Meng says when you ask him about this. He is making himself available to us all. Talk to him and report back. I'm happy with Noel's answer for myself. You don't seem to be, so bring all this directly to the new owner. You might get your resolution that way, whatever it is.
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zombiequeen
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 20:17:56
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☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/04/10 19:48:14
ch.hueyNo, there was never any statement it would stop running. It was said that it WILL run, but for how long no one knows... What's the difference? Cactus MusicWhy are people still obsessing about the server issue?
We've been told it is not an issue, end of story. Here: chris.rI was told "if you paid 12 consecutive months of monthly payments or pay up-front - you own the software"... that's what I was told when buying Sonar Platinum. Bottom line is, without any kind of off-line activation, if you build up a project archive that's precious to you, they own you. I picked Sonar precisely because at the time it didn't require activation or dongle. That changed when I updated, which took me by surprise. Now it changed from bad to hopeless, so I'm out while I don't have much to loose.
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ch.huey
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Re: Future of activation of pre-bandlab versions?
2018/04/09 21:56:09
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zombiequeen
ch.hueyNo, there was never any statement it would stop running. It was said that it WILL run, but for how long no one knows...
What's the difference?
Cactus MusicWhy are people still obsessing about the server issue?
We've been told it is not an issue, end of story.
Here:
chris.rI was told "if you paid 12 consecutive months of monthly payments or pay up-front - you own the software"... that's what I was told when buying Sonar Platinum.
Bottom line is, without any kind of off-line activation, if you build up a project archive that's precious to you, they own you. I picked Sonar precisely because at the time it didn't require activation or dongle. That changed when I updated, which took me by surprise. Now it changed from bad to hopeless, so I'm out while I don't have much to loose.
I'll say this again so hopefully people will hear it... If you're jumping ship, revise your archives so you don't have access to Sonar Platinum ever again. The permanent unlock was an option that is not on the table anymore, that has been stated repeatedly, and was only an emergency measure that is no longer necessary. How anyone feels about that doesn't matter if your only concern is your archive - and if that is the case, there are options available now that you can do. If you have older versions of Cakewalk that can activate, it would be worth going back to those. You can always open those if you have the activation codes. Alternately, stay on board and wait until Bandlab lets loose with the final version, and see how much doesn't carry over. Archive in the new program. Test it out on either a virtual machine (VM) install, so you can see how much is lost without Sonar Platinum not being installed under Cakewalk by Bandlab, or to a new hard disk, or something where you don't have Sonar Platinum, but have everything else you own. It will be forward compatible with Bandlab, but you will be dependent on activation servers most likely in the future no matter what it seems. CWB files are universal to both SPlat and CbB. If there are any differences, there probably won't be many, and you can account for that in archiving - this applies to moving forward with CbB, or to reverting to an older version that has an activation code you own, and can use on any machine you want. I'm assuming you have X3 or older, which I understand doesn't have the activation problem of Sonar Platinum. Either way, you should be able to keep everything in an archive you can open whether you jump ship or not, and there is more than one way that accounts for the servers going offline at some point and you not having an activation. Again, you don't have to like it, but to say that there are no alternatives is not true. I'm assuming that at some point, I can't use Sonar Platinum, so I've already tagged a lot of my archive that is dependent on it, or isn't, and can be stored as only WAV files, and can't. I don't have an older version of Sonar to revert to, so I'm going to go with CbB and save both in Platinum and that. I doubt there will be any differences, but I'm very anal retentive. If you jump ship it's way more work, and I'm not, but I won't judge anyone who does. This ignores the morality/legality/theography issue of getting your final activation code for Sonar Platinum. There is a way to see how much you will or will not lose by converting your archives to CbB if you stay on board. If not, you can always start converting back to a previous version of Sonar that you own the activation for. I'm not going to be waiting for a permanent unlock for Platinum personally, and I'd suggest that anyone who is might want to take advantage of one of the above strategies, all of which can be tested on free VM software or a new Windows install/partition. It's the abundance of ways to archive that be overwhelming, but the best answer we are getting is this: The servers will stay online to activate Sonar Platinum. There is no need for an unlock key, since Bandlab has stated it will support it. No answer on how long, but it's not tomorrow. Hate it, love it, doesn't matter, you can now prepare and have your options and I've suggested many for people to use if they hate it or love it. If I had a previous version I'd start saving Platinum in that if possible as a backup just in case, but I don't, so I'm limited, but above are the options devoid of judgement on whether or not we 'deserve' the unlock. Anyone who does have a previous version can try this, since we're all heading for a new mobo and cpu at some point and need to reauthorize. There are options on the table for anyone whose sole concern is archiving their projects, assuming even the worst case scenario, at this point. You might not like them, but they're there and Noel has said where Bandlab stands. If you don't trust Bandlab, then I have listed some viable options above so you can jump ship, or if you do, there are viable options above. Either way, you have options. Really trying to be helpful here so please don't mistake this for a condescending answer, just one that is pragmatic. What happened happened, and all the issues about 'ought to' are not practical solutions for archiving. I'm only concerned with pragmatic, and right now that assumes no permanent unlock but the servers will stay online for a period of time that is long enough to figure out your own strategies.
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