papa2005
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 03:01:13
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JustGotPaid
I guess the gunshots finally got too close.
Naw, nothing to do with gunshots...*LOL* Family health issues necessitated my relocation at the time...
Regards, Papa CLICK HERE for a link to support for SONAR 8.5 CLICK HERE to view a list of video tutorials... CLICK HERE for a link to Getting Started with Session Drummer 3...
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Trev Wilkins
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 04:12:34
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I find that the SM 57 works on some guitar sounds but not others. It often feels like it's adding a little 'grit' so my first choice for a dynamic is a Sennheiser e609. They sound more transparent, on cleaner sounds in particular, and aren't expensive. They also work great on other instruments.
If you're hearing what you want to from the amp then it's just a matter of getting a good signal path and finding where the mic picks up what you're hearing as some of the guys have already said.
Trev Wilkins www.stageandstudios.co.uk Studio and Live engineering/technical services for the entertainment industry. Author of The Focal Easy Guide To Cakewalk SONAR and Access All Areas. A real-world guide to gigging and touring Touring technician for Robert Fripp/King Crimson
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JustGotPaid
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 04:58:38
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I like the e609 and the the Audix 5. Lots of guitar players love those two. Good thing most cab mics are cheap. I want them all.
Oh, and let's not forget the SM 57 Beta. I was using one tonight.
DS
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edentowers
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 06:01:31
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There's been a lot of talk regarding mike placement here, and quite rightly.
However I would also think about moving the cabinet itself, as its position in a room can affect its sound a lot. Try getting it off the floor, out of a corner, whatever. Move it around until it's working better for you.
S8PE, Dell XPS 720 (Q6600), XP Pro SP2, Edirol UA-101
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Butch
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 07:00:44
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Most of that "big" sound is going to happen from what is going on in the signal chain before the mic. To get a big sound you need a good guitar into a good amp and a good cabinet. The Marshalls should do it, as long as they are tube amps and cranked up loud. A close miked amp at "bedroom" volume will never sound big. It needs to be loud to get the power section into the sound. The speakers need to be pushed to get their full voice in there and the resonance of the cabinet. If it doesn't sound huge in the room, it won't sound huge in Sonar. After that, I prefer a Sen. 421 to get a big sound. I put the mic about one inch off the cloth, the mic capsule at equal height with the bottom seam of the dust cap and perpendiculal to the surface of the cone. Good luck and CRANK IT!
Butch Let's make some art!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 07:42:52
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I get a big sound with a 3 watt Champ and a 8" speaker.
It's sparkly too.
Any mic will do. Really. All you need is one.
I think the sparkle is put at risk when you start playing thru a 4x12 cab and discover there really isn't a sweet spot for the mic.
There's a lot of opportunity for the 4 (maybe 8) speakers to comb filter out all the sparkle.
That's why the industry has ended up with gurus who make big rig guitarists feel good about their choice of using a stage rig to record. They put up 3 or 4 mics on the big rigs and let the guys wail and then when everyone is gone they run the clean tone through a Reamp and a 3 watt Champ.
Ok, I may have just made that up... or maybe not.
Did I mention the benefit of Alnico speakers?
Other than that, I think the idea mentioned about moving the speaker cabinet as well as the mic is really good advice.
best regards,
mike
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lfm
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 07:49:33
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A couple of things I come to think about:
#1. It's not very likely that a single recorded guitar will sound as powerful as you are used to just listening from a cabinet.
Double, triple and quadruple takes and pan etc.
#2. Set the volume really low and have a set of phones that attenuate surrounding sound at least 30dB or so.
Now you can move the mike and see how the character changes with position of mike, how close sets how much bottom you are getting, angle it, center it and every thing you can think of.
Get the best sound you can like this.
When you are done in this phase, try raise the volume to what you need to get the sound you want. You will probably be close to the best you can get.
If you got a second mike, use that too for mor ambient sound over to another track to mix later.
#3. If you want powerful guitars like hardrock, don't record them to distorted. Too distorted guitars I find get weaker sound.
Many takes and a not so distored guitar is better to get it real heavy.
#4. If doing a lot of serious recording you might think of getting an amp that got direct outs for recording.
A DI-box from preamp out might work.
Combine this with miking the cabinet and in the room. Then you have something to experiment with.
I got a Koch Studiotone, low wattage, which got direct outs with cabinet simulation filters for 1x12, 4x12 and two mike positions. And also got internal resistor to take the heat from poweramps and not making any sound in the room at all(especially good if you have got neighbours living in a flat). Very versatile and worth the money if you do this a lot.
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Dave Modisette
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 08:02:54
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LpMike75
I havent gigged or recording with a guitar cabinet in years. I thought everyone went direct out of their POD's nowadays. It sure makes life much simpler...
Only if you want your guitars to sound like everyone elses.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 08:02:54
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Please excuse me for seemingly singling this statement out... I do recognize that almost everyone here has repeated the idea that:
"#1. It's not very likely that a single recorded guitar will sound as powerful as you are used to just listening from a cabinet.
Double, triple and quadruple takes and pan etc."
I just want to go on record as voicing complete disagreement to this notion.
One mic, one track, one guitar, and a nice set of fingers does it just fine.
If you end up with 4 tracks of the same guitar part... you'll end up turning everything down while trying to de-muddify the tone... and you rarely get the magical full spectrum of tone that a single mic provides right from the start.
very best regards,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 08:04:49
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Mod Bod
LpMike75
I havent gigged or recording with a guitar cabinet in years. I thought everyone went direct out of their POD's nowadays. It sure makes life much simpler...
Only if you want your guitars to sound like everyone elses.
Honestly Dave, that is the single best explanation about the implications of choosing to depend on a POD that I have ever considered. Nicely done.
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Dave Modisette
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 08:07:17
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mike_mccue
Please excuse me for seemingly singling this statement out... I do recognize that almost everyone here has repeated the idea that:
"#1. It's not very likely that a single recorded guitar will sound as powerful as you are used to just listening from a cabinet.
Double, triple and quadruple takes and pan etc."
I just want to go on record as voicing complete disagreement to this notion.
One mic, one track, one guitar, and a nice set of fingers does it just fine.
If you end up with 4 tracks of the same guitar part... you'll end up turning everything down while trying to de-muddify the tone... and you rarely get the magical full spectrum of tone that a single mic provides right from the start.
very best regards,
mike
I agree. If you want stark in your face sound, a solo violin can do it. If you mic up a violin section, it mellows the sound. So what I'm saying is that "more" doesn't always sound bigger. In fact it can give you the opposite effect.
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Crg
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 10:01:26
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surfnorthwest
Well I am getting a bit frustrated in getting my amps recorded right. Currently I use a RME Fireface 800 into SONAR 8.5 with SM 57 mics. I know how to hit the sweet spot with the mic but the sound just isn't as good as I would like. I just ordered a PreSonus Eurka Preamp with the thought being that running my SM57 through this first then into the Fireface 800 will make the sound much better (or so I am told)
Is there any other tricks you guys use in SONAR to capture big amps.
It might be your room also. Are you micing in an acoustically treated room? Reflections from your room can really mess up a miced cabinets sound and they are hard to detect sometimes. When everything is working right and you can't find the problem, that is sometimes the culprit. If your room is small, consider an isolation cabinet or making some kind of temporary isolation barrier.
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feedback50
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 12:09:24
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I little more to contribute other than my own personal experiences. I have had better luck in a small studio with small amps (hot rods, boutiques, etc.). There seems to be an interaction with the room that becomes less flattering the larger the stack. Big stacks seem to need big rooms.
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JustGotPaid
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 14:20:00
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Practically all good commercial studios have an isolation booth and a lot of the guitar parts are cut in there. It's very limited to doing much of a sound treatment in a small room. And I keep referring to the studio that uses a regular small closet, complete with clutter, as an amp iso booth and they get a great sound. They were just using that one SM 57 like the way mke_mccue said above. Personally, I've never done a sound check where one mic sounded better than two different mics on two separate tracks. Might just be my ear and taste in sound. I know a lot of these high volume rockers sometimes use smaller studio amps in small booths cranked open and/or will throw a heavy blanket over the amp and mics and get a great sound that way too.
I guess we've made this sound complicated and confused the OP enough. But it's really pretty simple. I'd say start in a small room or closet, or maybe face the amp in the corner and add some foam or blankets. Start with one 57 and move it around. Then add another different mic and move them both around. The only way I can tell the differences in the long run is to do a record each tecnhique and then compare using the Solo button.
Oh, btw, that was a great link someone shared earlier to the Shure page where they focus on mics, placement, and tone.
I just like discussing cab miking techniques! Always searching for that magical Lost Tone of the Delta.
DS
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batsbrew
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 14:42:20
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OBHave
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/05 21:18:31
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If you can find a used ATM 25, it's a secret weapon on guitar cabs. It was marketed as a kick drum mic and there are subtle low and high boost peaks that bring out the best in guitar amps.
I can't remember which hotshot producer recommended them, but I'm glad I bought mine.
Cheers,
Phil.
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batsbrew
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/06 11:52:47
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well, mics are fun and all that, but the ROOM will put a sonic fingerprint on it, even with close micing.
and that can work for you, or against you.
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PJH
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/06 12:20:24
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Just my two cents but no one has asked the OP what kind of tone he's looking for. A lot of expensive mics have been recommended amongst other things. To be honest, he has got great mics, great amps and there's nothing wrong with his soundcard etc.
Something is wrong if he cannot get a decent tone with what he's got. Throwing money at the situation (new preamps, mics etc) isn't gonna make that much of a difference.
Many, many great, huge guitar sounds have been achieved with less than what he already has in his possession.
I'd like to hear what is actually coming out of the speaker cab.
Cheers,
Peter.
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JustGotPaid
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/06 16:05:42
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DevilCat78, I found the counter reference concerning Gibbons and the circle of amps. Here's what Terry Manning, the engineer, said about it:
"It's also not true what Billy has said in some guitar magazine interviews, that we put a whole lot of amps in a circle, facing inwards, with the sound coming out of all of them at once, and had one mic in the centre of the circle. He just loves to send up the interviewers with a good story!"
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batsbrew
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/08 15:29:44
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yea, i always figured that was a shine.
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mgreene
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/09 09:06:27
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I know exactly what the OP is going through.
I didn't see anybody mention that the missing secret ingredient is TAPE. It used to be as easy as falling off a log to get a GREAT project studio guitar sound back in the days of recording tape.
It was as simple as setting a mic in front of the cabinet and the result was a kind of sonic wysiwyg.
These days - to me - anyway, it is very hard not to end up with a very sterile sound through a DAW setup. I have a (custom) tube preamp, SM57(s), modded Ribbon mic, condencers, good amps, etc, but I still have to be extremely careful in order to get a good sound that doesnt seem to have a thin ringy high end and a characterless midrange. [The best real sound I have gotten recently (didnt need any processing) was straight through the tube pre with a ES175 on a jazz cut.] Most often I record an amp (clean to medium crunchy) and end up re-amping it with software.
Recently, I have been considered fireing up my old portastudio and using the preamps in that to see if if makes any positive difference and maybe even sending the tape monitor output to sonar.
Mike
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Crg
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/09 21:03:03
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mgreene
I know exactly what the OP is going through.
I didn't see anybody mention that the missing secret ingredient is TAPE. It used to be as easy as falling off a log to get a GREAT project studio guitar sound back in the days of recording tape.
It was as simple as setting a mic in front of the cabinet and the result was a kind of sonic wysiwyg.
These days - to me - anyway, it is very hard not to end up with a very sterile sound through a DAW setup. I have a (custom) tube preamp, SM57(s), modded Ribbon mic, condencers, good amps, etc, but I still have to be extremely careful in order to get a good sound that doesnt seem to have a thin ringy high end and a characterless midrange. [The best real sound I have gotten recently (didnt need any processing) was straight through the tube pre with a ES175 on a jazz cut.] Most often I record an amp (clean to medium crunchy) and end up re-amping it with software.
Recently, I have been considered fireing up my old portastudio and using the preamps in that to see if if makes any positive difference and maybe even sending the tape monitor output to sonar.
Mike
Nope, tape won't cure it. I've got some portastudio 424 tapes that will prove it. Space, the final frontier.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/09 21:35:15
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How about one of those free PortaStudio sim plugins?
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Crg
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/09 21:45:40
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mike_mccue
How about one of those free PortaStudio sim plugins?
That's hilarious Mike.  A portastudio plugin. Should I add a tape noise simulator to that?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/09 22:02:52
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I was hoping you would.
:-)
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mgreene
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/10 11:45:45
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mike_mccue
How about one of those free PortaStudio sim plugins?
That's hilarious Mike. A portastudio plugin. Should I add a tape noise simulator to that?
Dont be ridiculous - you know I am talking about tape saturation. For my money, everything sounded better going to tape. Mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/10 17:06:28
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:-)
I'll tell you what... if you ever get another PortaStudio... I can rent you a few cassettes when you are ready to mix to the two bus... but I will need them back.
They are closing the Sony plant in Dothan Al.
Times are gonna get tough for the folks that didn't stock up.
:-)
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MarlboroMan23
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Re:Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets
2010/04/10 17:10:57
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CJaysMusic
What kind of ribbons do you like CJ?
I use a CAD trion 7000
Cj
CAD used to bundle that with their Joe Satriani Guitar Amp Pack. I read a positive review of it in EQ I think. It's been discontinued though. Here's a pretty biased MF review of it. http://www.musiciansfrien..._mic_pac?doc_id=102783
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