Getting a better sound from your guitar cabinets

Well I am getting a bit frustrated in getting my amps recorded right. Currently I use a RME Fireface 800 into SONAR 8.5 with SM 57 mics. I know how to hit the sweet spot with the mic but the sound just isn't as good as I would like. I just ordered a PreSonus Eurka Preamp with the thought being that running my SM57 through this first then into the Fireface 800 will make the sound much better (or so I am told)
 
Is there any other tricks you guys use in SONAR to capture big amps.

There are more then mic's and preamps that can affect recorded guitar tone. What type of pickups are you using? I have found that pickups play a critical part in tone, note attack and note definition.

CJay + 1.

Add another mic. An SM 57 and another 57 or even 58 works good. A 57 and a Senn 421 are considered a classic. I like those and I also like a 57 and a Peavey PVM 22. A very over-looked mic. I also like a 57 and a Sterling 33. Another over-looked mic. In other words a 57 and another good (doesn't have to be expensive) mic. That extra mic just fills it up and adds some sort of synergestic quality that I can't explain. But it's there.

One thing I've noticed, the big league voices in the big league studios often use vocal mics costing in the thousands. A big league guitar player in a big league studio often uses a $100 SM 57. No mic has been used on more classic rock songs than an SM 57. No that I know about, anyway.

The last session I was at in Nashville had one of the established session players that you've heard on countless records. He was using a single SM 57 miking a small Fender set on about 4 and using a couple of inexpensive effects pedals.

When I got into computer recording I thought I could get rid of all my amps and just use the guitar programs in the software to get all my guitar sounds. I quickly learned this is not necessarily so. They've improved those programs since then so I don't know how realistic the higher end ones are now. But it will be a while before anything replaces the 57 across the board.

Experiment some more and try using another mic with it. It will work. And go easy on the distortion.

DS

I wonder what kind of amp he is using because some amps can produce an unwanted sound to where in order to get a very clear sound recorded you kind of have to go a little louder.  Also, why not try a condenser mic instead of those sm57s they work just as well.

I agree with CJ, another preamp is probably not the solution you're looking for. The mic selection and placement is probably going to have a bigger impact on your recorded tone.

The sm57 is a great mic to start with, try some different positions (edge, cap, cone, etc.) and try some different distances. On the grill sounds different than one inch away and four inches away sounds different than that. Make sure the room you're recording in isn't adding a lot of un-musical reflections or flutter to your sound. Unfortunately it sometimes takes a lot of experimentation to find the setup that delivers the specific sound you're looking to achieve.

If you've exhausted everything you can try with a single sm57, then you may want to look at using another mic (either in place of the 57 or along with it). It depends a lot on what you're looking to add to the sound, but a good ribbon mic (like the Royer 121) or a Sennheiser 421 would be probably be a good all around match with your 57.

Also, keep in mind that what you record is not going to sound like a finished record. There's often times a fair amount of EQ work that will go into it (like rolling off the bottom end to reduce rumble and mud, boosting the mid-highs for a more aggressive tone, cutting some of the high-end, etc.) as well as compression, and so on. All of this adds up to the finished sound of your guitars.

Hope that helps,
-Jon

What kind of ribbons do you like CJ? Have you tried the AKG 414? I've heard good things about it and the Royer 121, the KSM series, and many of the "Blue" mics. I don't think I've tried any of the ones I listed yet. What are your favorites?

DS

John


Placement placement and placement are the only things to worry about.  It really doesn't matter much about pre amps or the mic type as much as it does where the mic is when you are recording. 

A major problem with mic placement is the proximity effect. This needs to be taken into account when placing a mic and can be the reason you have problems.

Thanks for the pdf, so do you think being about one inch from the grill cloth is too close? The shure pdf says about 4 inches is best.

Yes its too close. Move it around till you get the sound from it you like.

Also keep in mind that they may be talking about close placement to prevent the mic from picking up other sounds in a live situation. You have a lot more latitude here if you are micing one instrument. Heck, you could put the mic across the room. The further you have it from the source the higher it should be from the floor (within reason) if you were micing it with a short stand. Use headphones to monitor what the mic is picking up and how it sounds.

OK... here is the secret formula for recording guitar cabinets.  However, you need an open back cabinet.  A Fender Champ amp is GREAT for recording (yes, you can get the STACK sound out of this little amp during recording).

Anyway, all that has been said about the 57 at the front but try a BETA 58 at the rear of the cabinet as well.... place them so that both mics are in phase and record both tracks and then blend at mix down to taste.

Jim

CJaysMusic

There are more then mic's and preamps that can affect recorded guitar tone. What type of pickups are you using? I have found that pickups play a critical part in tone, note attack and note definition.

Very true, but it sounds like he dialed in his guitar sound, but he cannot capture it in sonar. Otherwise why would he be recording his guitar if the sound wasnt what he wanted???
Cj
 
But hearing your tone in conjunction with room ambience, etc is not quite the same as hearing it recorded. The tone is not tweaked with ears in the same location as the mic

What kind of ribbons do you like CJ?

I use a CAD trion 7000
Cj

Ahem...don't believe everything Billy says in interviews. Mystique has always been a big part of ZZ Top. Tall Texas Tales included.

On the other hand, he's probably tried more combinations of amp heads, cabs, mics, guitar's, and guitar pick-ups than anyone on the planet. I truly believe he is more focused on tone, and better at getting what he wants, than anyone. Still...I was always skeptical of the amp cabin story. They might have used it some, but I don't think it was ever a mainstay in their recordings.
 
Anyone rememer the old Vox Super Beetle they used on the Tejas record? I think it was the one that got those mid rangey honking sounds. "Ten Dollar Man" comes to mind. I think that was the record. It had a lot of those odd tones in it. Cool stuff.

DS

Well I am getting a bit frustrated in getting my amps recorded right. Currently I use a RME Fireface 800 into SONAR 8.5 with SM 57 mics. I know how to hit the sweet spot with the mic but the sound just isn't as good as I would like. I just ordered a PreSonus Eurka Preamp with the thought being that running my SM57 through this first then into the Fireface 800 will make the sound much better (or so I am told) Is there any other tricks you guys use in SONAR to capture big amps.

 
The first step toward solving the problem is defining exactly what it is you're not capturing from your guitar cab/s.
IOW, Define what's currently lacking...
 
IMO, The mic preamp can add some flavor (or not - depends on the unit)... but the preamp alone will not fix this type of issue.
 
The SM57 is good at one thing... and one thing only.  It captures a very tight/focused/punchy you might even say crunchy mid-range.  That's it...  There's not much bottom or top.
The SM57 restricts the electric guitar (tight/focused mids) to where it'll typically fit well within a full mix.
 
If your recorded guitar cab tracks lack size/umph (which I suspect is your concern), then I'd suggest using two mics to capture the cab.  Use a good condenser mic to capture a more full-range (larger) overall sound.  And use the SM57 to it's advantage (tight/focused mids).  Record each mic to a separate track... and balance the two to achieve a guitar sound that works with each mix/scenario.  This is a very effective technique.  Also works great on bass cab...
If you listen to the condenser track, it'll sound larger... but more polite.
By itself, the SM57 track will sound aggressive... but perhaps a bit thin.
Balance the two... and you have a fantastic guitar sound.
 
I like using a C414 for the condenser mic in this example... but many other choices will work well. 
  
Mic position is also critical.  Experiment with different mic positions for the condenser and SM57.
Eventually, you'll figure out where/how to position the mics to capture the sound you're looking for.
Don't think of interim (less than stellar) recordings as failures... but rather as a learning experience/process.
 

devilcat78


An example of an unorthodox technique that has amazing results is Billy Gibbon's(ZZ Top) guitar tone. I read an article in an industry magazine (it was MIX or Recording Mag, I can't remember) that he setup a room full of Marshall stacks (something like 10-15!!) with 2 omnidirectional tube condenser mics in an A-B setup in the middle of the room with all the amps in a semi circle facing the middle of the room. SICK!!

Oh, if you only knew! *LOL* (Don't believe everything you read--nor everything you "hear" on CD's)...
 
Did he happen to mention how big a role the Fairlight at Ardent studios played in how he created the records in the 80's & 90's? *LOL*

Basic info on the Fairlight...

I'm no longer in Memphis...Left there about 20 years ago...