bluzdog
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 18:36:38
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+ 1 for ARC. I thought my fairly extensive treatment was up to snuff until I got ARC on a group buy.
Rocky
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bapu
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 18:58:27
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mike_mccue
I have begrudgingly begun to admit to myself that there is a great advantage to running all the bass through Melodyne after I have the selected a best take or comp.
It makes the bass much easier to hear and discern and I find that I can often lower the amplitude level immediately after running the tuning process because the bass just seems more prominent when it's well tuned.
Call me crazy. Lots of folks do.
Actually I do the exact same thing Mike. Stumbled on to this about 6 months ago. Only because during tracking I did not notice that I was slightly out of tune but upon closer examination I discovered I was but the performance was exactly what I wanted. Also, to the OP. Chorus and or Distortion in parallel to the clean signal can help tremendously. Use judiciously. The key is, in parallel, not o the track/bus directly. I send my bass to a bus. On the bus I sent that to another bus. On that received bus I apply the chorus/distortion. I blend the two buses to taste. MAJIK!!!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 19:04:22
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:-) Did you mention that you have an Alembic*? :-) *shameless plug
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Beepster
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 19:16:01
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In regards to this pitch correction method using Melodyne... will V-Vocal do a similar job? Can't afford Melodyne and don't really see using it enough to justify the cost. Also I'm assuming this method wouldn't work as well with fast picked/plucked basslines. Is that correct? This is an awesome thread BTW. :-)
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 19:28:51
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I would imagine so... I can't look at V Vocal for more than a few moments before I have to run away. It just looks too ugly... and it reminds me that Cakewalk needs to hire panup so that I can get a version of SONAR X that I can look at.
The idea is that even the best bass players and bass guitars have slight shifts in intonation... which is great if you are into expressive and original bass playing, but if you are using the bass as a "base" or foundation for all the other harmony in the mix then the closer it is to being right on tune, the easier it seems, to me, to mix it so it stands out without making stuff sound muddy.
All the other mix techniques mentioned are pertinent... to the extent that I take them for granted. Do all the low cuts and mud avoidance with all the other instruments... for sure, but the idea of making the bass notes them selves serve as a good reference for all the other tuning in the mix seems, to me, to make every thing so much easier.
FWIW, I have a couple nice bass guitars and a couple favorite preamps and compressors.... and that really helps make it easier too.
A lot of times, a fussy bass player will come to my place and end up playing my gear because it just gets them what they want to hear right off the bat and they remark that they are surprised because they have spent so long testing and acquiring their gear for their personal sound... and then they play one of my plain old bass guitars through a great preamp and great compressor and they kinda get a smile on their face because they quickly figure out that the sound has been in their fingers all the time.
I like watching that happen.
Then I sneak a quick tuning run and see if I can get away with that before we do the vocals. :-)
best regards,
mike
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bluzdog
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 19:30:28
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No reason why V V wouldn't work. Give it a whirl........
Rocky
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Beepster
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 19:45:06
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Cool. I've been looking for an excuse to fire up V-Vocal but I haven't had anything I thought would be pertinent to what it does. This really is a great thread. Cheers, guys.
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timidi
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 19:45:39
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mike_mccue
I have begrudgingly begun to admit to myself that there is a great advantage to running all the bass through Melodyne after I have the selected a best take or comp.
It makes the bass much easier to hear and discern and I find that I can often lower the amplitude level immediately after running the tuning process because the bass just seems more prominent when it's well tuned.
Call me crazy. Lots of folks do.
Good luck.
best regards,
mike
LOL. Glad I'm not alone....
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soundtweaker
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 20:38:45
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Yea adding some drive will help cut through the mix. But if your looking for the old Squire/Lee tone you won't get it unless you overdrive an old Ampeg SVT tube amp. Also the new Fender Bassman 100T head can get you very close too. Has a built in speaker load too so you can record direct without a speaker hooked up. Sounds really good. I used to have the Avalon U5 and though it's a great pre, it sounded too clean for me. Sounded like I was laying down bass tracks for Allan Holdsworth. I wanted something that colors the tone slightly. Joe Meek did the trick. This is all just my opinion.
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Cactus Music
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 21:09:03
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For me it starts with the instrument. The majority of Fender P basses I have owned were always a little dull sounding for recording even with hot rod PU's . We save those basses for live gigs. Find a bass that sounds good direct. There's lots of them out there, And it doesn't have to be a custom made $1000 + instrument. The Pick ups have to be good, the rest is tone coming from the construction. And yes use only nice fresh strings. I plug direct into the mixer - add compression and Hi Pass @ 80Hz and onward ho! That's it. Done. Cut's through and drives the song. I tune after every take and I'm very careful how I sit and play... you need good clean bass technique to record. The Mighty Hondo Pro II ( $130 with Amp ) Yes those are Seymour Duncans on there, stock. These were Japaneses origin assembled in USA 
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bapu
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 21:19:29
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Cactus Music
I'm very careful how I sit and play... you need good clean bass technique to record.
+1 I struggle at times with the live approach to playing when I'm in the studio. Funny, I have not played a live set in like 20 years. An odd, one or two song performance at a wedding and such but not a full set.
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Jones Studio
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 21:48:01
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Excerpt from an article by Bobby Owsinski ( http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com) "A very cool and helpful guy to check out!!" The most difficult task is the bass and drum. To have impact and punch you have to make space. Simply EQing bass high and kick low or other way around might work at it's simplest, but it's best to have a more in depth strategy – consider the following: EQ the kick drum between 60 and 120Hz as this will allow it to be heard on smaller speakers. For more attack and beater click add between 1K and 4Hz. You may want to drop some boxiness between 200 and 500Hz. EQing in the 30 to 60Hz range will produce a kick you can feel but it may sound thin on small speakers and probably won't translate well to a variety of speaker systems. Most 22” kick drums are centered somewhere around 80Hz anyway Bring up the bass with the kick. The kick and the bass should occupy slightly different frequency spaces. The kick will usually be in the 60 to 80Hz range whereas the bass will emphasize higher frequencies anywhere from 80 to 250Hz (although some are reversed depending on the song). Shelve out any unnecessary bass frequencies (below 30Hz on kick and below 50Hz on the bass, although the frequency for both may be as high as 60Hz according to style of the song and your taste) so they're not boomy or muddy. There should be a driving, foundational quality to the combination of these two together.
A common mistake is to emphasize the kick with either too much level or EQ, while not featuring enough of the bass guitar. This gives the illusion that your mix is bottom light, because what you're doing is shortening the duration of the low frequency envelope in your mix. Since the kick tends to be more transient than the bass guitar, this gives you the idea the low frequency content of your mix is inconsistent. For Pop music, it is best to have the kick provide the percussive nature of the bottom while the bass fills out the sustain and musical parts.
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bapu
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 21:53:35
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Jones Studio
Excerpt from an article by Bobby Owsinski (http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com) "A very cool and helpful guy to check out!!"
The most difficult task is the bass and drum. To have impact and punch you have to make space.
Simply EQing bass high and kick low or other way around might work at it's simplest,
but it's best to have a more in depth strategy – consider the following:
EQ the kick drum between 60 and 120Hz as this will allow it to be heard on smaller speakers. For more attack and beater click add between 1K and 4Hz. You may want to drop some boxiness between 200 and 500Hz. EQing in the 30 to 60Hz range will produce a kick you can feel but it may sound thin on small speakers and probably won't translate well to a variety of speaker systems. Most 22” kick drums are centered somewhere around 80Hz anyway
Bring up the bass with the kick. The kick and the bass should occupy slightly different frequency spaces. The kick will usually be in the 60 to 80Hz range whereas the bass will emphasize higher frequencies anywhere from 80 to 250Hz (although some are reversed depending on the song). Shelve out any unnecessary bass frequencies (below 30Hz on kick and below 50Hz on the bass, although the frequency for both may be as high as 60Hz according to style of the song and your taste) so they're not boomy or muddy. There should be a driving, foundational quality to the combination of these two together.
A common mistake is to emphasize the kick with either too much level or EQ, while not featuring enough of the bass guitar. This gives the illusion that your mix is bottom light, because what you're doing is shortening the duration of the low frequency envelope in your mix. Since the kick tends to be more transient than the bass guitar, this gives you the idea the low frequency content of your mix is inconsistent. For Pop music, it is best to have the kick provide the percussive nature of the bottom while the bass fills out the sustain and musical parts. Funny. I *know* this yet I still flub it every once in a while. But I have a co-producer who reminds me that I'm being a dork.
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Cactus Music
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 22:24:04
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I struggle at times with the live approach to playing when I'm in the studio. Funny, I have not played a live set in like 20 years. An odd, one or two song performance at a wedding and such but not a full set
Bapu man, we gotta get you out of the house!!! Your turning pasty coloured!
I always thought it would be cool to go and play bass on a Cruise ship!! I think you play 12 hours a day!
I too don't get to play bass live much anymore as I leave that job to my good friend Corky. He has amazing skills on stage but man is he sloppy in the studio. Keeps hitting the PU's. When he not looking I just overdub his parts :0
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bapu
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 22:30:16
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CM,
Bleh... cruise ship? No thanks. I'd rather record than play yet another "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" or "Along Comes Mary".
And schlubbing equipment around for $100. Again, no thanks.
I enjoy what I'm doing now.
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Cactus Music
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 22:50:13
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Oh god ,,, they don;t really make you play those songs do they??? That would certainly not go over well with my sensibilities. I'm spoiled and our band gets away with playing anything WE like as long as it was recorded in the 60's or 70's. People also like the originals mixed in.
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 22:57:38
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FWIW,I would not call KRK Rokit 8 monitors "great",they are great for the price,but I find my Rokit 5's overly "hyped" in the bass/low end,and the high mids are pretty harsh,and not fun to mix on for long periods of time.
I find them reasonable,as long as I keep the level pretty LOW,but compared to a Tannoy "Eaton"-Dual Concentric Monitor[yes I only have 1-so annoying]from 1978,and sold as a"high end" Hi-Fi speaker[that were often used as studio monitoring/mastering apparently]the Rokits pale.
I was given the set of Tannoy Eatons years ago,and one didn't work,and as I was living in the inner city of Sydney,I threw out the non-working one,without knowing what I had!,they now go for $1000-$1500 each!,but as a final check,I'm using that ONE Tannoy more and more,as it just seems to show so much more than a speaker in the price range of the Rokit.
Now if I could just find another one[plus a huge power amp]that wasn't going to be $1000,minus the cabinet!
Bob
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Guitarpima
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/11 23:05:23
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Razorwit
Here's one strategy for producing bass guitar. Put your DI bass git on one track and your amped bass on another. If you don't have an amped bass copy your DI and run it through an amp sim or an IR. Copy the DI to a third track and name it "fuzz" or "bite" so you end up with three tracks, DI, Amped and fuzz.
On the DI track drop a fast FET compressor (1176, PC76 etc) on it and compress a fair amount. I sometimes like to add some wooliness by turning the attack and release to their fastest settings. This track will provide the presence and solidity of your bass guitar line.
On the Amp track compress a bit but don't go too fast on attack and release. This should be your big, round, low bass sound. I think of this track as being most like what I hear with a bass guitar playing through an amp in a room.
On the fuzz track drop on a tube simulater (the TL64 does a pretty good job with this) and drive it so you're really fuzzy. EQ out the low end so that you're really only getting mid/mid-hi's and above. This track provides bite and definition.
Route all three tracks to a bus and mix each of them to sculpt your sound. I usually like some kind of LA2A-type compressor (TLA-100, PC2A etc) as well. Next, put an EQ on the bus and use a hi-pass filter at about 500hz with a really gentle slope...on the ProChannel EQ I usually use a 6. Drop the gain on that filter all the way down so you're only left with the frequencies above it. Sculpt the mids and hi's and when done slowly dial back in the low end. I usually dial back in the lows with the rest of the material playing to get the balance right. Potentially carve out a space for your kick with the other bands of eq. Adjust futher where where needed. Use the tracks feeding the bus to change the character of the bass sound. Don't be afraid to compress a fair amount and don't be afraid to automate the relative levels of the different bass tracks..sometimes the character of the sound needs to change (from verse to chorus for example).
Good luck,
Dean
This is good advice. Mixing in a little bit of the fuzzy bass can give it some grit and make it more audible. Just a little bit can go a long way.
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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TraceyStudios
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 00:56:45
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Thanks to all that have replied. I spent a couple of hours in the music room tonight focusing on the bass. I got out the trusty cakewalk analyst and started looking at various tracks. Kick first and guitars next. I eq'd above the kick (low end about 80hz) and right at the edge of the guitars. 400 hz. Then played back and slowly brought up the bass. Once I got the bass to an appropriate volume, which was way less than I would think, i started sweeping the shelf down from 400 hz until I got some seperation from the guitars. I am using Guitar Rig as an amp sim mostly to smooth out the tone. In some spots it sounded a but muffled. Applied a litte compression at the beginning of the signal and a little at the end. I think it sounds much better. However sounds a tiny bit muffled. So I am not sure if I am happy or not. But I need to give my ears a rest and take another listen tomorrow. As far as the KRKs. For the price they are fantastic. I also have the KRK sub. I will listen with the sub, then bypass the sub, then listen on headphones, then bounce and listen on my crappy computer speakers, and on the ipod. I do have a Spector czec made with emgs, but they are so powerfull, hard to record with direct. -6 db pad is still not enough. As I mentioned, I know the room is not ideal, but I have to work with what I have. Don't have a pro budget, just try to spend the money wisely. I applied several of the tips suggested to me today and have noticed an improvement.
Thanks!! I'll be checking back for any more good tips.
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sharke
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 01:14:49
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Well my Focusrite VRM box just came in the mail and I must say it's causing me to completely rethink my bass. It sounds way too pronounced and boomy on almost all of the studio monitor simulations, as well as the living room hi-fi settings. I also switched my cans from Grados to ATH-M50's which are giving me another bass perspective. Acoustically treated rooms are out of the question for me right now so I'm relying on cans and speaker simulations for the time being. TracyStudios, do you have a subscription to Lynda.com? They have a couple of excellent video courses on mixing. The one on EQ by Brian Lee White is particularly good and he teaches a lot about getting bass and kicks to sit well in the mix together. http://www.lynda.com/Audio-DAW-tutorials/Foundations-of-Audio-EQ-and-Filters/86649-2.html
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Jones Studio
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 10:12:47
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Funny. I *know* this yet I still flub it every once in a while. But I have a co-producer who reminds me that I'm being a dork.
Bapu,
I too felt like a 'dork'! the post jogged my memory and because of the post... it made me recall this info from Bobby O. lol
Have to get to the reality of the mission and this has served me well in the past and indeed I needed a refresher!!!
jonny3d
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 10:29:42
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Beepster
In regards to this pitch correction method using Melodyne... will V-Vocal do a similar job? Can't afford Melodyne and don't really see using it enough to justify the cost. Also I'm assuming this method wouldn't work as well with fast picked/plucked basslines. Is that correct? This is an awesome thread BTW. :-)
V-Vocal will do the job perfectly - PROVIDED it's a clean, monophonic line
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 10:31:24
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I've never thought of a P-Bass and it's bright sounding single coil sound as being muddy.
The most common reason I know of that a P-Bass would sound muddy is that it is plugged into a direct box or mixer with a 1500 thru a 10kohm ohm input impedance.
A P-bass want's to see a 1 MegaOhm input. I use a preamp with a 2.2 Megaohm input and I turn down the hi frequency shelf 3dB.
Hot rodded pickups, for any application, emphasize and fatten the mid range frequencies and are especially suited to making a muddy sound. If you want to avoid a muddy sounding bass... don't use a hot rodded pickup. Use a basic, good P-bass pickup... just like on that Hondo.
I low cut the Bass below 40hz so that the low E is included.
best regards,
mike
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listen
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 10:54:55
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mike_mccue
I have a Warmoth P-Bass with quarter pound pickups.
I have begrudgingly begun to admit to myself that there is a great advantage to running all the bass through Melodyne after I have the selected a best take or comp.
It makes the bass much easier to hear and discern and I find that I can often lower the amplitude level immediately after running the tuning process because the bass just seems more prominent when it's well tuned.
Call me crazy. Lots of folks do.
Good luck.
best regards,
mike
Mike - simply stated I never thought to do it - but it kind of makes so much since. Thanks for sharing...
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 11:12:09
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Mike - simply stated I never thought to do it - but it kind of makes so much since. Thanks for sharing... Another thing to mention about fretted bass (and guitar for that matter) is than no instrument is in perfect intonation on every note. It's just not possible... Melodyne makes perfect intonation quick/easy. Think of it as being similar to percentage quantization with MIDI. With Melodyne, you can percentage "quantize" intonation.
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konradh
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 11:20:16
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In songs where the bass plays a lot of lines, I take the super lows out of it and let the kick take the bottom with the bass taking the low mids. If you leave the bottom in both, you won;t have any headroom for anything else. Getting kick and bass right takes a lot of time and I agonize over it and am always questioning myself. This is the toughest part of a mix, with lead vocal being #2.
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Cactus Music
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 11:36:49
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I guess I should re define "hot rod" pick ups. Pour choice of a term.
I guess what I recommend is using "good" pick ups.
Replacing the stock Pick ups on lower end instruments can make a world of difference. not just for tone , but in way less noise and shielding issues. And sometimes a well played older instruments need an upgrade too, must be the magnets die of old age.
There are so many different P bass's made all over the world, you cannot trust that any 2 would sound the same.
Op- have you tried using just the raw bass track without all the fancy gimmicks ??
Somehow I can't help cringing when I read your using guitar rig to enhance the bass. I guess I'm a purist and other than compression and a touch of EQ would never dream of processing bass. I'm the same with guitar tone too. Guitar-Cable- Tube Amp. But then each type of music requires a different approach I guess.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 11:43:58
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Bapu man, we gotta get you out of the house!!! Your turning pasty coloured! I always thought it would be cool to go and play bass on a Cruise ship!! I think you play 12 hours a day! A cruise ship vacation is a blast! Music on a cruise ship is *super* "milk-toast"... so as not to offend anyone. It's a "dinner music" type gig... (yuck!)
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Cactus Music
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 12:09:07
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Music on a cruise ship is *super* "milk-toast"... so as not to offend anyone.
Except us musicians ha ha
I had "Tie a yellow ribbon" stuck in my head all night thanks to Bapu! I flushed it out with some Derick Trucks this morning.
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tunekicker
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Re:Getting the Bass Guitar to sit in the mix correctly
2012/09/12 15:12:18
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This is also one of my favorite tricks. Oftentimes bass notes come out at vastly different volumes (esp. high octaves vs. low octaves.) Melodyne makes it easy to select all instances of a particular note and change their amplitude. This is very helpful in getting things to sit right. mike_mccue
I have a Warmoth P-Bass with quarter pound pickups.
I have begrudgingly begun to admit to myself that there is a great advantage to running all the bass through Melodyne after I have the selected a best take or comp.
It makes the bass much easier to hear and discern and I find that I can often lower the amplitude level immediately after running the tuning process because the bass just seems more prominent when it's well tuned.
Call me crazy. Lots of folks do.
Good luck.
best regards,
mike
Another thing I've found is that sometimes folks set the attack on compression too fast on bass. You want enough of the attack of the signal to come through first, so setting the attack a little slower can help. To be truthful, getting the bass to sit right is one of the things I find the hardest, too. Peace, Tunes
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