Good program for MIDI bass guitar?

I'm wondering if it's possible to make a realistic sounding bass guitar track  using MIDI. I'm skeptical because I'm wondering how one could do slides and things like that. 

What would you recommend for someone who doesn't own a bass guitar? In the past, I've made my guitar sound like a bass, and now I'm importing the bass audio track (.wav) from Guitar Pro into Sonar. It's not bad, but I just can't make it ballsy enough for my taste. I'm recording mostly metal.

Can I do slides? How would that work?

I use the Cakewalk Sound Center and I prefer the Ricko Bass.... slides? kinda hard with midi.

John has defnitely got a point.

I use synth bass for when I'm just fleshing out an idea for a song.

This is always replaced by real bass later on in the process, unless I'm doing something dance or pop oriented (rare).

Yes you can do slides with midi.
Trilian is excellent but designed for keyboard control.
It has more techniques than just sliding up and down too.
Check their site videos.

I don't have midi bass but do have midi guitar and the
old Roland GR-30 is pretty darn good. I get better response
from it than the GI-20. (yes one can do slides with the GR-30)
The cool thing about using the GR-30 is if you like any of the
onboard sounds one can combine them and still control an
app like Trilian. BUT, I don't know if there is an older (or newer)
Roland GR-30 unit for bass. I would start my search there.

   Maybe you should go to the NativeInstruments Forums and ask this ? in reference to whatever scarbee bass you like.There was a thread there about midi patterns for one of the scarbee basses but,it was just a general ? and didn't ask about articulations. You should also check out the Prominy SR5 Rock Bass.

John T


If you're a guitar player, you can get a perfectly usable cheap bass for the same cost as Trillian, and the learning curve probably won't be as steep (I'm not kidding about this).

I spent years chasing after authentic sounding bass, and I finally got it when I went and got a bass. Nothing wrong with synth basses of course, and I still use them when I want a synth bass.

For metal especially, I think you're on a hiding to nothing.

A big +1 to this.
I bought a new Peavy bass for $150.
Not the best bass in the world but better then software.


Mike

  A real bass is the best way to go.He's said that he owns a real bass but,its not with him and he doesn't need anymore stuff where he is.

I use Trillian and it is quite amazing and simple to use.   As you already know, MIDI Wheel slides can be very cheesy sounding.  Trillian has sampled articulations such as slide up, slide down, x Notes, gliss, etc... that are triggered by adding MIDI notes(key-switches).  That is, key-switches to trigger dynamic bass articulations.  Trillian will play any standard MIDI file, however, you can swap out MIDI slides, bends, etc.. using key-switches to trigger more realistic performances.  Check out Trillian video on YouTube.  It covers the aforementioned articulations and other features of the product.   I'm sure there are other comparable products. 

Trillian Video Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYU93OtvzjA

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/wa...lA&feature=related

Another bass program is found in EWQL Ministry of Rock ... which I've used for dozens of pieces ... with keyswitches (for sliding) and all ...

But I'd bet Trillian is loved as well or more.  Authentic basses are great but I don't trust my ineptness in the low end.

Yes you can do slides and any other "articulation"  you can think up to do using midi to play your bass lines and very well too, thank you. 
You  can also choose what sound you wanna use for your bass line and you'd  be surprised what instrument sounds work as bass line sounds and/or combinations of instruments to provide the bass sounds --- it's up to you.   You merely transpose most down one octave some others down two.
You can play any synthesizer "instrument"  sound using midi
SONAR is based primarily on midi    all the synths in your projects are controlled by midi.
You don't say what kind of setup you have or what your level of ability is so it's very hard to give much advice on anything specifically about how to do it.   I can't say how I learned.  I just sort of did small things at first then progressed.
midi programming, is not difficult really but............it also isn't easy  
BUT any worthwhile endevour usually is uphill.
I looked around here a little bit and I am really surprised at the paucity of information I have found here on this subject so far.  My ignorance bothers me and to see how many others here couldn't or wouldn't give advice bothers me also.  Is there more information on handling midi here?
 
Buying a bass guitar is only a good idea if the person actually can or wants to play the bass guitar.
There are already WAY TOO MANY BAD BASS PLAYERS so stop encouraging others to jump in.
 
MIDI is a way around the technical and physical difficulties of playing many musical instruments.
It allows you to generate musical noises (with way more control than most people can get out of a
real instrument after many years of lessons and practice)  using a qwerty keyboard, a mouse and your mind.
 
Those others of you that haven't found this out really should look into it.  The amount of music you can make using midi programming will stagger you.  No it's not like programming a computer.
It's making music using the staff view and the event list and some use the piano roll view
I just remembered that I saw a video of a guy doing guitar midi bends and slides using the PRV on you tube or here in the instructional videos. 

I looked around here a little bit and I am really surprised at the paucity of information I have found here on this subject so far. My ignorance bothers me and to see how many others here couldn't or wouldn't give advice bothers me also. Is there more information on handling midi here?

Tomas, welcome to the SONAR forums. As a West Coast Floridian myself, I'm glad to see someone here from my neck of the woods (or beach, as it were).

There is a lot of information in these forums; when you mention the "paucity of information...on this subject so far", are you talking about the subject of MIDI in these forums? If so, take some time to look around in here--especially at the older posts, or in the other forums.

There are 58974 users who are "registered" to these forums. Most are not active at the same time (or even in the same month), but during the week, these forums are quite busy. The "problem" (if you want to call it that), is that the more popular threads stay at the top of the forum, where other ones tend to sink to the bottom. So, if you're asking a question about a "hot-button" issue like the new version of SONAR, you'll get more views and responses than someone asking about doing a SYSEX dump from SONAR. Also, the more people who are interested in or feel they can help with an issue, the more popular that issue becomes...and the longer it stays at the top, crowding out the other issues. The technical or troubleshooting issues are usually more difficult, and they usually only get responses from the subset of users who feel they can help.

Another issue with this thread is that the OP (original poster) hasn't been back in more than a week to comment on any of the suggestions given to him/her. Without that, there's not much incentive for anyone else to try to help. I have no doubt he's busy, but many people will look at the thread and think, "Well, if the OP can't be bothered to come back, why should I add my suggestion to the list of others in here?".

If you have a good background in MIDI and/or SONAR (or anything that you think can help), please take a look at some of the older posts in these forums. You'll see many older threads and other threads where no one has replied. Feel free to offer a suggestion in those, if you think you can help. That's what I usually do, and that helps bring the "forgotten" posts back to the top of the list, where others might see them and offer their experience and expertise, too.

Steve

Aloha Steve and RLD,
 
I went and listened to the Trillian stuff and Kalle Rantaaho suggested the manybass and they both sound great.  manybass has a great price also.  I haven't learned how to use these sampler based units yet.  I mostly use the sounds I have on my outboard synths and write the lines on the staff view and use the event list to add any mods and slides and bends and anything else.
  
In the near future I'd like to get into using all these new synths and samplers that came with Sonar PE 8.5 (new to me).  That was my purpose in getting Sonar in the first place.  Re-recording all these projects and midi files I had from the past.  After listening to some of the musical output from some of the users here,  I decided it would be well worth the effort.  Over 100 projects to redo.  Revoicing the instruments and redoing the recordings with all the controls for audio available in Sonar should be quite the adventure.

Steve - to go thru all these forums and read all this stuff all out of sequence.............I dunno.   I looked under Support on the Forum  header and if one clicks on Sonar 8.5 the page opens and you can go to the Desktop Music Handbook which has a good treatment of midi and seems to be a good place to direct anyone asking the OP's type of question.  What I was looking for - for myself was a more in depth treatment of midi programming techniques.  I don't think I'll find it here.  I have Rob Young's first book "The Midi Files" and Eric Turkels "Arranging Techniques for Synthesists" which helped me enormously when I was first getting into this stuff years ago and I'd recommend to anyone.

I'm wondering how many folks here (the forum) do midi programming and to what extent they have taken it?  Whole pieces or just loops? How many compose using the staff view and record to midi as opposed to play the keyboard and just record the audio output?

RLD


I agree with Tomas on a lot of points.
I've played guitar and bass in groups and I feel most guitar player over play when it comes to bass.
Its not a guitar with 4 strings, it has a different role.
I primarily use Trilogy for bass.
For me, its easier than recording a bass guitar, and I have Fender and Carvin bass guitars.
I have it setup in a template so its ready to go, it always sounds fantastic and is consistently easy to get great bass tones.
Also approaching the bass part from a keyboard gives one a different perspective and can lead to more musical results than just patterns on a neck.
Of course, great results can be achieved many different ways.

RLD and whom this may concern,
 
1) My ears have detected RLD's bass tones to be the very best out there ... I'm now assuming RLD's astonishing collab with me utilized Trilogy.  It is extremely meaty in the low end (below 1000 Hz) and difficult (for me) to emulate from other synth-basses.
 
2) But, Spectrasonics d/c'd Trilogy (3GB library) ... for the next generation Spectrasonics Tillian ($279) ... with its outlandish and irreducibly complex 34 GB core library  (ouch!)
 
3) For the low end, 34 GB seems way to big, IMHO.  My ears simply cannot discern sample quality in the low end of things.  Albeit, this library contains the trilogy samples.
 
4) I'm seriously considering springing for this product ... and will ponder.

Aloha Steve,

I didn't mean using the staff view to lay out the music in notes for printing the sheets.  I think that is what a lot of the notation programs are for.  I believe that Cakewalk was not intended to be used in that manner, primarily.  Meaning you could but........ Maybe Sonar can be used that way?  Now, I mean.  It wasn't in earlier editions.

I have the feeling that MOST of Sonar users are after recording audio and using the midi looping features and pattern synths, not composing and not using the midi capabilities much beyond that.  Whether from lack of knowledge or desire, I dunno.  I haven't found the discussion about midi programming in any of the forum topics.  By midi programming I mean doing a musical production (a tune) all in midi.  Not loops.  One note at a time on the staff.  The event list allows the artist to add all the necessary controller information for each note, velocity, aftertouch, pitch bend, slide, etc.  From what I've seen here most prefer to use the PRV for all that and I remember seeing a video of some guy demonstrating how he does bends and slides on you tube using the PRV.  The Sonar staff also seem to advocate using the PRV.   That would throw me but maybe only because I've always just used the staff view.  I usually use the PRV for doing my drum tracks because its easier than using notation.
      
Why would anyone WANT to record a whole tune to midi?
Well, a midi recording is a recording of all the mechanical aspects of producing the sounds that make up the tune.  Once I have the performance in midi, I can go back and edit every part of the tune and correct any flaw and/or add anything missing.  After recording the midi to audio in Sonar for instance, if there is something amiss in the performance, it is easily located, examined and if necessary repaired or removed.  That is why anyone should want a midi recording of their performance.  You can go back and change any thing.  The sound of any instrument.  The anything!!!! of any track.  That's why.

Cakewalk was/is a midi sequencer.  Sonar is a audio recording program that incorporated much of that sequencer but they made changes that so far have made it very hard for me.  My work files, .wrk files,  if loaded into Sonar are completely uhm .... not right.  The program doesn't like .wrk files.  So I use Cakewalk Pro 3.0 still for midi programming and playback of those .wrk files.  They need to be saved as midi type 0, to load into Sonar, I believe, and that destroys all the track/measure view information saved in the .wrk file.  Not good.
It applies to each track all that info but all the tracks are numbered wrong and mis-named and it changes the tracks willy nilly. Very much not good.  I doubt that there are many here who have that problem though.  I have done a couple of things using the sonar midi portion of PE 8.5 and it works fine as it is exactly the same as old cakewalk except for handling the proprietary .wrk files.