jamesg1213


I'm only a casual listener to Satriani & Vai, so feel free to correct me if this is wrong, but I don't hear too much in the way of rhythm electric guitar underneath those creamy lead tones - for example, I hear Satriani going from clean chorused arpeggios into highly sustained leads, and then a piano drops in behind, or the bass player changes to a more complex pattern to fill out the sound. Do either of those guys use a second guitarist when they play live?
 
 
 
If  you watch Joe Live in San Francisco he has a Rythmm/keyboardist as well.
Although as Danny mentioned I have seen him live a couple times and he did all his own guitar work.
 

RabbitSeason

Danny Danzi


You may have a Marshall or a Soldano that sounds great on leads, and a Mesa dual rectum frier for the rhythms...

Really enjoying this thread.  But slightly disturbed by the Mesa product that Danny mentions.  I may live to regret asking this, but what, exactly, is a dual rectrum frier?

Something you don't want to meet in a dark ally!

RabbitSeason

Danny Danzi


You may have a Marshall or a Soldano that sounds great on leads, and a Mesa dual rectum frier for the rhythms...

Really enjoying this thread.  But slightly disturbed by the Mesa product that Danny mentions.  I may live to regret asking this, but what, exactly, is a dual rectrum frier?

LOL sorry about that, Rabbit. Chuck knew what I meant. LOL! That's what we call the Rectifiers over here...so much gain, they fry your...umm...you know. :) Definitely one of the best metal amps ever made....and one you can plug right into and get a cool sound with in seconds without any pedals.
 
-Danny

ChuckC


Danny,
  I actually sold mine recently, Sadly I let it go for about $950  Not because I didn't love it (I did) but because It was such an elitist pain in the ass that it wouldn't let me use ANY fx with it....  My current band (a cover/original project started about a year ago)  requires that I am able to match tones, fx, etc. of some of these cover tunes. When I tried to use pedal(s) with that mesa either in the Fx loop or out front (it didn't matter) It would just scream and not in a good way.  it was kinda like feedback from the moment you turned it on, til ya turned it off an removed the fx from the chain.  Long, consistant OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH....
It didn't even matter if the volume on the guitar was off!  It was kinda like the amp was sounding an alarm.... I AM A MESA BOOGIE!!! GET THIS **** OFF OF ME!!!  DON'T NEED IT TO SOUND GREAT!!!   & i did sound great, but you can't match say the flange sound of the chili peppers version of "Higher ground", or the tremelo sound in the lead f Live's "Hemmorage".   So I needed the money to buy a real good pedal.  But I must admit, I bought the pedal first, and A/B'd the tones to try to dial in my mesa's sound before selling it.  The Line 6 XT Live pedal  chose get's me about 90% of the way to that sound.  It's good and it's close... but it's still no Mesa.  The up side is I am not blowing $200+ dollars every year or so on tubes (6L6's, rectifier tubes, and all the pre amp tubes) and if the voltage from the wall in some club changes (because the cook turned on a food mixer in the back) my tone doesn't go to ****.  (I know, I know.... power conditioner). 

I do miss my rectifier especially when recording but the cash from it wen't to that pedal & helped me buy my DAW.....  Oh well!!

Yep what you say there is the reason I don't use my amp rack arsenal anymore...I was just too limited unless I brought a few heads with me and it really got to be a pain at times. But here's the thing Chuck...and hopefully Max will forgive me for sharing this type of info in his thread....but this is probably why you had issues.
 
The first thing to remember is....your effects loop in that amp needs special care. It's a buffered loop...which is something I have never really liked much in any amp, but with the Rect. you have a send control knob that controls the amount of buffering. The other thing to keep in mind is...there are only certain pedals you can run in an effects loop bro and you have to pay extra special care as to how you route them in there. For example...
 
Anything  driven, should stay out of your loop at all times. Distortion, boosters, compression, talk boxes, wah and volume pedals and *some* pitch transposers. The object is to put enhancement type effects in your loop like reverb, delay, chorus, flange, phaser,*some* pitch transposers, stuff like that. See, the effects loop is just like the send on a mixing console....and if you put a distortion on a send, you know how bad that can sound. Pair that up with the powerful pre-amp in the Rect. and you're in for a world of trouble.
 
All distortions, eq, compression, wah, noise gates, *some* pitch transposers, talk boxes, tremelo and anything that has an analog "push" so to speak, should always go in the front of your amp...all processing enhancements, in the loop. Now I know I keep saying *some* pitch transposers all over this post..let me explain the method to my madness there.
 
Some harmony type devices literally need the input drive of your signal for them to keep pitch. Just about all intelligent pitch transposers work this way. Eventide, DHP 55, IPS 33-b...these all need a good signal when using intelligent harmonies. Regular pitch transposers (un-intelligent...you know, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th of a note etc) do not need that extra boost to maintain pitch...so they can go in a loop or be fed unto the front of the amp. Realistically, we'd want our harmonizer in the front part of the amp so that we cop all the sounds and distortion etc so it sounds like we're doing a harmony with all our stuff on it and the tone change from front panel input to effects loop can really make a difference in how this sounds. It may be a bit too clean in the loop and not really what you want...then again, units like the IPS 33b or the DHP 55 perform better in the loop than taking direct front end signal. So you gotta feel out your harmonizer and try both.
 
The next thing is noise control. The first thing we need to do (which you had with the Rect.) is to get front end noise to a minimum. This is why I have always suggested an amp with a monster front end. The Rect. is actually quiet in the noise area considering how much gain you get out of it. However, a gate would be the wrong choice because we're dealing with a little hiss here...not OOOOOOMMMMMMM type noise. The best choice...Hush IIC noise reduction. This handles noise better than any gate or surpressor you can buy in my opinion and I use two of them in my big 25 space rack I call "Goliath". The first one is a stereo Hush II C and it goes last in my chain right into my 2 power amps. I get such little hiss, I can use it on a minimum setting and still have volume knob expression on my guitar which never chokes my sound. The cool thing about the Hush is, it gives you a frequency control knob that allows you to hone in on the problem area...then you just drop the threshold until your hiss is gone.
 
I have a Bradshaw Switching system in this rig as well which has a built in Hush. (the rack lower down with a big midi type cable sticking out the front) This one is sent to my effects loop and is used very lightly to control any slight hiss I may get from the loop. All my chorus, flange, phaser, delay, verb and special effects go in my loop. The Bradshaw is an 11 channel mixing console in a dual space rack. This allows me to route all my stuff the way I want it like an automated mixer, light up the stuff I want to use via pedal board, press the save button and all my channels will be open or closed depending on what was used. Forgive the ugly pink chords....I was experimenting when this pic was taken...but this is what Goliath looks like. Over-kill for most people....but perfect for what I need. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Goliath.jpg
 
Now the next thing that causes extreame "ooooooohm" in your tone, is those freakin wall wort power packs as well as how your cables are arranged and set up. I have a rack in Goliath (it has a little red stick-on strat on it) called a Juice Goose 12 pack that eliminates all power packs and turns them into jacks that look like a phone jack you plug into your wall. Anytime you have your cables near a powerpack or something, you chance getting that 60 cycle "ooooohm" sound. To further prevent this, I have plastic coating (like the stuff you see on cars) on all my cables so that if they ever do touch something, no noise will come from them. Every cable I have is coated with this plastic covering that you can buy at any automotive store.
 
Next, some amps just have bogus effects loops and you sometimes have to have them rebuilt by a tech. I mentioned a Peavey Ultra Vacuum tube head that I love. The problem with it...it had an in and out effects loop. I've never had luck with in and out effects loops...so I had it changed over to a full send/return loop which totally fixed the problem. Sometimes they just sound bad and need work. What the difference between in and out vs. send/return is....I have no clue as I have no experience with the technical side of amps in any way, shape or form. But I know I always lose with an in/out effects loop as opposed to send/return.
 
Using a rack or pre-amp in your Rect.: Some guys like to run processors through their amps that have assorted tones and sounds. If you go direct into the amp, this will sound horrible. For examples, if you wanted to run your pod into the Rect. so have the sounds the pod has, it will fail miserably in the front end of your amp unless you work the front end control panel to death. What you get is dual distortion this way...and to me, it has always sounded horrible no matter what pre-amp gets used. The best bet, run the pre-amp into the effects loop of the amp and slave it.
 
To do this...which will work great at all times although you will lose the front end of the amp, you plug your guitar into the pod or pre-amp, out of the output of the pod/pre-amp into return in the loop. You don't even need the send nor do you need to plug into the front input of the amp. That's all you need to do. What happens here is...you bypass the entire front end of the amp and slave off of the power section from behind. Your front control panel should be completely disabled....be beware, when you turn this on, the amp is up to 10 by default and the output knob on your pod/pre-amp will be your new master volume knob. There have been times with certain amps though...where the front panel may work in a few areas. I have a few Marshall's here that work like that. The presence knob and the master volume still work when I slave from the loop. But in all the other amps I use, as soon as I go into the loop like this using pre-amps, the front panel is completely dead.
 
This would be the equal to plugging your pod/pre-amp into a power amp or into a recording console. We get rid of the front end so we don't over-drive the front end with the pod distortion and the Rect. distortion. The downside of doing it this way, you totally lose your 12AX7 front end as well as the pre-amp section of the Rect which in my opinion isn't a good move. But, your pod/pre-amp will sound like a million bucks back there because we're not coloring the sound with additional gain from the front end pre-amp.
 
But one of the reasons I'm no longer an amp man is because of it being a bit too one-dimensional for me. I use a Digitech 2101 tube pre-amp (the big gold piece you see in my rack) which has so many sounds and different pre-amp voicing built into it, there has never been a sound I couldn't get close to. It has 12AX7 tubes for a real tube sound as well as transistor amp gain which is off the hook. That thing has the best tranny sound I've ever heard to be honest...though it's rare I use it. It's a nice choice to have. It also has some of the best effects (every effect known to man actually other than a talk box) around built into it, so between it and the other racks I have, I got everything covered.
 
In my original band, I use about 20 different sounds and tones. In my cover band, I do everything from hard rock from the 70's to the new stuff of today...so I have to have lots of sounds to draw from. I do my best to keep everything as realistic as possible on the sound end of things eventhough I never play anything note for note other than when we do our authentic Van Halen tribute show...which even there, I'm probably playing about 80% of Eddie's leads, 20% my own style. But with a rack like the one I have (I also use a Rocktron Chameleon at times as well as a Mesa Tri-Axis) it just makes more sense for me to do it that way when you are in need of loads of sounds at the touch of a button. That's the cool thing about that Bradshaw....it's a big mixing board that's pre-programmed to work with anything. Set up your sounds and what racks you want to be triggered for a particular sound, press store, and bang...one touch and it controls the entire rack instantly without any glitches. Big to lug around...but man does it sound great! :)
 
-Danny

So not interested in hauling around a rig like that.... I'd e playing a combo if I thought I could do it without my friends laughing at me.... LOL
I sold my mesa and went back to my back-up amp, a peavey transtube they made in the 90's (when I bought it). I have run it as a slave and bypassed the preamp but  like the ability to adjust on the fly for minor tweaks. For instance if my setting are a little bright for the acoustics in a particular club & can take a little off the top without having to over-write the presets stored in my pedal.    I set them all up with the amps tone section settings basically at high noon so it's easy to return them later.  So I run my guitar into my Xt live & then to my boosta grande (to give the leads a little kick in the butt) both of which I have on a pedal board/cover I bought and then added a doghouse to it to protect the plugs and connections from drunken staggering singers.   Then to my peavey (front end) and out to my 320w Harke 4x12 cab.  (Danny, if you haven't you should check these cabs out!  Heavy bottom end, clean top- comparable to mesa slant cabs or the marshall 1960's for way less dough!)

Pedal board:


Note the preset name....


Amp/Cab:

ChuckC


So not interested in hauling around a rig like that.... I'd e playing a combo if I thought I could do it without my friends laughing at me.... LOL
I sold my mesa and went back to my back-up amp, a peavey transtube they made in the 90's (when I bought it). I have run it as a slave and bypassed the preamp but  like the ability to adjust on the fly for minor tweaks. For instance if my setting are a little bright for the acoustics in a particular club & can take a little off the top without having to over-write the presets stored in my pedal.    I set them all up with the amps tone section settings basically at high noon so it's easy to return them later.  So I run my guitar into my Xt live & then to my boosta grande (to give the leads a little kick in the butt) both of which I have on a pedal board/cover I bought and then added a doghouse to it to protect the plugs and connections from drunken staggering singers.   Then to my peavey (front end) and out to my 320w Harke 4x12 cab.  (Danny, if you haven't you should check these cabs out!  Heavy bottom end, clean top- comparable to mesa slant cabs or the marshall 1960's for way less dough!)

Pedal board:


Note the preset name....


Amp/Cab:

Nice stuff Chcuk...whatever works, right? :)

Another side note on Mesa's signature sound I feel is worth mentioning...  I was reading a forum a while back in which there as a guy who apparently works/worked for mesa.  He said the way the gain structure is set up on most of their amps is designed so it's harder for even an idiot to go on stage somewhere with a horrible tone coming from one of their amplifiers.   He said basically the signal is daisy chained from the low knob, then mids, then, highs in such a way that if you were to say cut the lows to 5, the mids are now limited at 50% too  even if the knob is all the way up (if the mid knob is at 50% too it is really putting out 25% or the equivalent of 2.5) then the current setting on the mids limits the highs too.  I guess the point is to have the amps always putting out a nice balanced tone in that you can't do a full mid-scoop without killing the highs too, at which point you are more likely to say "that sounds aweful" & bring the mids back up.  So they are known for that FULL tone.  Before owning my mesa, I often used to mid-cut a lot, after having it, I have gotten real used to a big full fat guitar tone.    A guitar is mostly mids.  Don't gut your sound by pulling them all out!!!!

Danny Danzi


You can actually zoom in on it Max, and it shouldn't pixelate much. Click view, then zoom to like 400% or something and you should see it better. I can also list all the stuff in it for you and explain what and why I use it if you want. I also have 3 more smaller rigs that I use built on the same concept that I can share also. I've been documenting this stuff for so long, I can just copy and paste the info from my older writing about this stuff...so it's no problem if you really are curious as to what I'm doing. :)

If you had a Digitech tube...it had to be what I have as to my knowledge, this was the only tube processor they ever made that I'm aware of. It didn't do too well because it's too loaded with options and is a bear to program internally. People want to plug in and go...with the 2101, it has options that have options that have options and it's limitless really. But it's way involved and most people are turned off by this. Once you grasp it though....in my opinion it is the most powerful pre-amp/all in one ever made...hands down.

-Danny

Hope no one else minds but yeah, if you have the descriptions readily available, I would like know more about your rig. Or any one else' rig, if they want to share.



BTW I like your DC400s. The Lucite LP is pretty cool too. I just got a Carvin CT4 this summer. My first electric guitar in 20+ years lol The CT4 and my Martin HD28 are my two main guitars.

Ok, here's the stuff in order if you were to look at that pic of the rack. A lot of this stuff is really old...but when I've tried the newer stuff to replace some of this...it just never gives me the same results. You gain some things, but lose others that are important.
 
Midi Motors Hum buster: This takes care of grounding issues and adds several power outs.

Furman Power Conditioner: You know what that does I'm sure.

Cry Baby Rack Wah: A rack wah with 6 different wah's in one rack which is also completely controllable. The volume of the wah sound, the frequencies selected etc.

Rocktron Chameleon: This was a pre-amp I used for many years that was one of the first tube based modelers. It doesn't sound very tube, but it delivers the best solid state distortion that I've ever heard other than the voicings in my 2101. Because I don't use it anymore yet got great results from it, I keep it in there as a spare pre-amp if my tube pre-amp fails...which thankfully, it hasn't. The Chameleon also features one of the first instant change patch capabilities. There is no lag between patch changes.

Digitech 2101 LE tube pre-amp: This is the heart of my sound. This pre-amp also has every effect known to man in it (other than a talk box) with excellent sounding effects. It's also one of the most incredible pre-amps ever made due to the options it gives you. Learning how to program this rack from the ground up will take a month, easy. It also has dual S Discs for changing sounds instantly without a pause in a patch change. You ever get a glitch in a patch change when playing live? This will not do that. It has instantaneous changes that also morph. Meaning, if I have a lead sound going on with a delay and switch to a rhythm sound that does not have a delay, the patch will change instantly and the delay from the lead sound will trickle its decay onto the new patch. So it's a constant and solid change that isn't abrupt. The pre-amp also sports 12AX7 tubes, as well as solid state voicings that are just as good...all in one unit.

Korg Tuner: You know what that one does. LOL!

Digitech 8 second time machine: This delay allows me to play my rhythm sound and sample it on the fly for up to 8 seconds. This works well when I play a rhythm and play lead over top. An example of this is when I play Jaimie's Cryin by Van Halen. We start the song with that da dada dada dadadada da part...and I click the hold button. From there, I play the lead over top and the sample I recorded will stay in memory until I clear it. I also do the Runnin With The Devil car horn sound using this delay using an intelligent harmonizer which I'll cover in a bit. The notes in the VH car horn sound are G#, E and D if I'm not mistaken...and when I play a G#, the harmonizer is set up to play the E and the D. From there, the note hold goes into the memory of the delay unit and "hold" is pressed. My guitar tech then turns the speed down to make it do what the car horns do on that song intro. One press of a button and I'm into my rhythm patch and everything that was in memory is cleared. Pretty cool delay unit...especially good for jamming over. And, it cops your sound exactly the way it should.

ADA Pitchtraq: This old thing is the best unintelligent harmonizer I've ever used. It gives off no artifacts and just gives you the octave, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc in 2 octaves...high and sub low. Neat for subtle pitch type stuff or my fave out of it...the sound of thunder...literally.

Digitech IPS 33B: This harmonizer is the intelligent one. It sports 3 part harms and does them with 0 artifacts. It also changes instantaneously. I actually like this better than my Eventide because it just sounds more realistic to me. It's great for vocals too. I've since added a DHP 55 harmonizer which has 5 part harms and is really cool too.

Juice Goose 12 Paq: This is a special power conditioner. It has 6 regular outlets, and 6 special outlets that look like cable ports on your computer. The special plugs needed for this are for eliminating power packs. Wouldn't it be nice to get rid of those wall worts that drive us all crazy that take up other outlets and bring on hum? With the Juice Goose, it gets rid of them and keeps things nice and neat.

Bradshaw Switching system: This is an 11 channel mixing board complete with pedal board. You route all your effects in each channel, and control them with the corresponding channel on your footswitch. From there, once you have all that you want lit up for a particular patch, you can click the save button and each time you access that patch, the effects you want will be present automatically. It also comes with its own built-in Hush Noise reduction. The great thing about the Bradshaw is, it can control anything. Switch two amp rigs, midi, old dinosaur effects...you name it, it can do it and then you instantly save what you have going on so you just need to hit one switch to change the entire 25 space rack if need be. It's an incredible piece of gear.
 
Each effect is run into a channel in the Bradshaw and the effects are left "on" as in enabled. When you press a channel, you hear the effect. When you press it again, it closes...no effect heard. So the object is to click up all the channels you want open (from 1-11) and then press store. Once you do that...it of course remembers all the channels you selected as open or closed and on press controls the entire rack. Within these channels are sends and returns as well. You can also run dinosaur effects that aren't midi into it...and have the Bradshaw turn them off and on or use it as an A/B amp/rig swticher and click up an entirely different rig with a single click. It's pretty loaded with options.
 
A better shot of the Bradshaw:
 

 
Pedal board: This is the pedal board for the Bradshaw that takes care of Goliath. The addtional expression pedal I added just controls effects fly-ins, lowering gain stages, volume pedal if needed...any type of expression. The other pedal is for the ADA Pitchtraq. It looks like this:
 


Alesis Quadraverb: I use this because it changes instantly and gives me the closest sounding phaser and flanger to Eddie Van Halen that I have ever heard. It also has some killer delays and chorus' to boot. Old, but pretty cool for live situations and it too changes instatly without a pause in sound. It's also VERY analog sounding and quite reliable for live applications.

Behringer Edison: This cool little not often talked about rack, does incredible stuff to stereo signals. It can give you an awesome spread that I just can't explain. It will make you look around the room and ask "where the hell is that coming from, man?!" That's all it does...stereo enhance any stereo effects that re before it in the chain.

Rocktron Hush II C: This controls the very slight hiss I get from my distortion. It totally removes it, yet is not a gate. It removes it to a level where the human ear cannot percieve it as "hiss". Therefore, my tone is never interupted or "gated" so to speak.

Rocktron Velocity 300's: These are my power amps. Modeled from real output tube power, someone got it right with these. I can't tell a difference between them and my real tube power amps that I use from time to time.

Alesis Data Disc: The last rack in the chain just backs up all the midi data in my rack should I power up and all my patches are gone. It will save them, and also load them back in instantly at the touch of a button.
 
That's for Goliath. I have 3 smaller rigs that I use also.
 
David: This one is for medium sized rooms. Furman power conditioner, another 2101, Samson Wireless, 2-Rocktron Velocity 250's.
 

 
Squirt 1: This one is new. Pretty stripped down. I use it in my studio, rehersals and anytime I want to go jam with someone and take something small. It's just a 6 space case with a 2101 LE, Crybaby Rack wah, and a Velocity 250. Xbox 360 not included. :)
 

 
Squirt 2: This one is the newest and what I use for my cover band most of the time now. Furman power conditioner, Line 6 GT 90 Relay wireless, Digitech 2101 Artist, Crybaby rack wah, new version of the Rocktron Velocity 300 now in a 1 space rack.
 

 
That about covers it. Hope you find some of this helpful. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. :)

I need to get a closer pic of it but... here I am playing my Carvin TL60
I love this guitar: Neck through, Active c-22 p-ups, fishman acoustic bridge pick up, phase switches for each of the 3 pick ups.  Very versitile guitar.  and it's clean sound is not only good but it's oddly hotter than it's distortion sound so I have to alter my presets when playing it as opposed to any other guitar.

I am glad to see so many Carvin fans :-)

My next guitar will be a Bolt kit.

Man, this thread has evolved. I wonder what is next lol

How about...

Guitarists, when you record, do you try to get it all in one take or do you just resign yourself to doing many takes and comping?

I know Danny was saying it takes many takes for layering but what about leads in guitar driven music (for example, Satriani type stuff)?

For example, I have come up with ideas and I put down rhythms and then improvise over and over again, repeating phrases that sound good to me. I build from there. When I am away from my home studio (look at me, I sound like a pro lol), I can hear it in my head and I know that I can eventually play what is in my head but I am not good enough to get it all done in one take. I think I will have to comp to get it all down.

maximumpower


I am glad to see so many Carvin fans :-)

My next guitar will be a Bolt kit.

Man, this thread has evolved. I wonder what is next lol

How about...

Guitarists, when you record, do you try to get it all in one take or do you just resign yourself to doing many takes and comping?

I know Danny was saying it takes many takes for layering but what about leads in guitar driven music (for example, Satriani type stuff)?

For example, I have come up with ideas and I put down rhythms and then improvise over and over again, repeating phrases that sound good to me. I build from there. When I am away from my home studio (look at me, I sound like a pro lol), I can hear it in my head and I know that I can eventually play what is in my head but I am not good enough to get it all done in one take. I think I will have to comp to get it all down.

You know...I tried doing the comp thing but it just doesn't sit well with me as far as "enjoyment" factor goes. I enjoy playing something all the way through...so I do that, and if anything sounds wrong, I just punch in and fix it. Now there have been times when I've gotten some trippy ideas where I couldn't quite play the stuff in one take because I just wasn't well rehearsed enough. In those situations, I do what zungle does. I lay down the parts and then learn the entire thing as an entity. But there is one thing I try to hold true to and that is, I won't record something that I can't physically play live for an audience. I know my capabilities and must be able to pull off anything I record, in a live situation. Anyone can make themselves something they are not in a recording situation...I've always been against that for myself. I've you've heard me play something in a studio version, rest assured it will sound like that live. My biggest problem....being too picky. I may record 300 takes or more of a 5-10 second spot. I'm so fast with my undo/re-start punch-in though, I can probably re-track something 30 times in 60 seconds for small spots like that.
 
-Danny

 
Danny, you should write a book
 
 

I won't record something that I can't physically play live for an audience.

I wish more performers would take that approach.


Its pretty annoying to see someone perform, someone you have admiration for.......and hey can't play even close to the studio version of their own song.......

Philip



 
Imagine Steely Dan, *performing* their multi-tracked magic, beatz, and all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylr2D4Pwn58.  They can't ... hahaha!
 
In this *live* video they are faking it! It would sound sickening on stage, and be difficult to pull off with sweet suave.  These are artists who have somehow welded their cr&p into most excellent beauty ... via the studio alone.
 

Not wishing to derail this excellent thread but i can't let that one go Philip, I can vouch for the fact that Steely Dan can most definitely
reproduce their sound on stage. I've seen them live and they were astonishingly good.