jacksojo2000
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8
- Joined: 2014/12/27 03:50:42
- Status: offline
Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
I've been a Cakewalk user exclusively for well over a decade and have immensely enjoyed their product offerings over that span of time. Despite this, I have admittedly mixed feelings about where things are right now...
On one hand, I am exceedingly happy to hear that SONAR's legacy will live on.
On the other hand, I do feel a bit burned by the circumstances surrounding lifetime updates (felt like a very dishonest cash grab and almost a betrayal) and the fate of Cakewalk.
Given the nature of Cakewalk's inability to sustain itself with its product offerings, I am looking at Bandlabs with extreme caution. Can they really do what Cakewalk could not (stay afloat on their own terms)? Is the SONAR's successor really a DAW for a life-timer like me to stick with and expect longevity from (when that same DAW could not save its previous owners)?
I want to see SONAR thrive, believe me, but a part of me also feels I may be better off going with a more stable and long-lasting/committed/secure/honor-proven company.
Just wanted to post my thoughts somewhere, but I wish Bandlabs all the luck in the world and hope they do justice to the SONAR name as it was in its hayday (no matter what the new name will be).
Cheers and Warm Regards
|
chuckebaby
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13146
- Joined: 2011/01/04 14:55:28
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/10 18:24:29
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby John 2018/03/10 18:37:59
I don't think Bandlab would have purchased Cakewalk if it didn't think it would succeed.
It would be a waste of every ones time and while taking chances are nice, Gibson was/is just not in a good place right now. They are selling off property, trying to pay their debts. And what better way to lose some of that over head than cut a company who was not a huge profit maker ?
Cakewalk makes money no doubt, but its following I believe is loyal, word of mouth and long standing users such as yourself, myself and many others.
This company has been brought down to a much smaller crew from what I imagine (Noel+Ben)
And along with Bandlabs help, I believe this company will do fine. It will make money and continue to sell.
I don't see it being the next Cubase but I happened to like Sonar very much.
It has always been stable (well X1 was a little rough) It has always been easy to grasp, even the deep features have been easy to grasp.
I wouldn't worry much. After all...
What do we have to lose ? This company was a ghost just 3 weeks ago.
Im just happy to see them back with a new plan.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
|
dlion16
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 391
- Joined: 2007/03/08 15:21:55
- Location: East Quogue, NY
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/10 21:01:57
(permalink)
Me too.
Been working with cubase on a new project, sounds good, much to like, afew quirks… hmm, sounds like a description of tdfkaSonar… (the daw formerly known as)
I looked at other daws too. The new team should too. See what's out there…
I'll be back to the new product, I've got 30 years of cwps…
my two wishes, much greater core stability and higher-end internal plug-ins
SONAR Platinum Lifetime 64-bit; Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 2nd Gen.; KRK Rokit 5; ASUS P9X79; INTEL I7-3820 3.6 GHZ;850 WATT POWER SUPPLY; EVGA NVIDIA GTX560 TI 1GB;Windows 10 Home 64-bit; 32GB RAM;2 Internal SSD Drives, 3 External USB drives.
|
jacksojo2000
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8
- Joined: 2014/12/27 03:50:42
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 04:39:41
(permalink)
Thanks for the replies and you both make good points. I look forward to seeing what Bandlab has in store for us before making any major decisions. Thanks again.
|
cparmerlee
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1153
- Joined: 2013/06/25 22:14:42
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 16:00:02
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2018/03/12 01:09:18
chuckebaby
Cakewalk makes money no doubt, but its following I believe is loyal, word of mouth and long standing users such as yourself, myself and many others.
Maybe I am not reading your comment correctly. But I think it is safe to say that Cakewalk has not been profitable throughout the Roland and Gibson eras. Gibson has its problems for sure, but they are not in bankruptcy today. If Cakewalk was making a profit, they would have looked for a buyer rather than unceremoniously shutting it down. I think the questions are: 1) Does Bandlab have the resources and desire to keep an unprofitable DAW in its stable for the long haul? They may have the resources, but I doubt they would want to do that. 2) Is there a different product direction or business plan that could make the Cakewalk assets pay for themselves? That second question is the more interesting one. This is an extremely crowded market. I like SONAR and all the people surrounding the product. But honestly, SONAR doesn't do that much more than a $60 Reaper license. As a traditional DAW, I'l go out on a limb and say the probability of this being sustainable long term is very low, maybe 5% odds. But I don't think that is the plan Bandlab has in mind. If you look where they are investing, it is all about the creation end of the process. They have been trying to create a "cloud DAW" so to speak. I suppose some of the Cakewalk technology could be useful there. But they have also said they intend to keep SONAR as a desktop app. I doubt we will ever see (not for a long time anyway) high quality commercial grade music mixed and mastered with cloud-style computing, but it can be a terrific way to collaborate and to evolve music projects during the creative phase. So the desktop DAW gives Bandlab reach from end to end, from creative to final production. That hints at where the development priorities will be, and that is probably a bit different from the priorities many old-time Cakewalk users have in mind. But if successful, that means a CWT-compatible DAW will remain available and supported, and that is surely a good thing.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storagesonocrafters.com
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 16:20:46
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby BobF 2018/03/11 21:50:56
cparmerlee
This is an extremely crowded market. I like SONAR and all the people surrounding the product. But honestly, SONAR doesn't do that much more than a $60 Reaper license. As a traditional DAW, I'l go out on a limb and say the probability of this being sustainable long term is very low, maybe 5% odds.
I'll go out on a limb and suggest that Reaper does a lot more than Sonar and is a superior DAW in almost every way. However, Reaper has an image problem. It doesn't look as "flash" out of the box as more expensive DAW's, doesn't come with any goodies and is a little intimidating to new users. Plus there is the perception of "how good could it be at only $60?"
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
C Hudson
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 990
- Joined: 2003/11/04 10:02:51
- Location: Canada
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 16:21:53
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2018/03/16 18:11:17
cparmerlee
If Cakewalk was making a profit, they would have looked for a buyer rather than unceremoniously shutting it down.
Sadly, Gibson has a very long history of buying technology ( hardware and software) companies and then doing just that. Not sure why. If they had stuck to building instruments, their position might be a lot different than where they are today.
|
bnwitt
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
- Total Posts : 161
- Joined: 2003/12/21 18:19:33
- Location: Southern California
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 16:36:56
(permalink)
Well I must say I was not surprised to hear another company is buying the Cakewalk code, changing the program name and abandoning the lifetime subscription users. This is exactly what I thought would happen. Trick your loyal base into forking over some cash right before you dissolve the company and then sell the code (not the obligations) to someone else. I saw Marriott do this years ago when they split their company into two entities, one with the assets and the other with the debt thus screwing over their bond holders.
What surprises me is the totally blind loyalty of so many folks with "kind words" for those who pulled this whole shenanigan. I've switched to Presonus Studio One and I'm never going to do business again with anyone associated with this scam. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
|
fireberd
Max Output Level: -38 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3704
- Joined: 2008/02/25 14:14:28
- Location: Inverness, FL
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 18:11:13
(permalink)
I'm one of the doubters. If Sonar had been sold to an established company, such as Presonus that sells both hardware and a DAW, I would have a better feeling. However, selling to a basically "cloud" company doesn't do much for me. BandLab probably bought Sonar at a relatively cheap "fire sale" price. Only hiring two ex Sonar employees doesn't seem like much for quick code development.
I too have bought another DAW (I've been on the edge for quite a while about another DAW and the Gibson abandonment was the impetus to make a decision). But, Sonar is still my production DAW and probably will be as long as it works.
"GCSG Productions" Franklin D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar (primary instrument). Nashville Telecaster, Bass, etc. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero M/B, i7 6700K CPU, 16GB Ram, SSD and conventional hard drives, Win 10 Pro and Win 10 Pro Insider Pre-Release Sonar Platinum/CbB. MOTU 896MK3 Hybrid, Tranzport, X-Touch, JBL LSR308 Monitors, Ozone 5, Studio One 4.1 ISRC Registered Member of Nashville based R.O.P.E. Assn.
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 18:23:47
(permalink)
fireberd
I'm one of the doubters. If Sonar had been sold to an established company, such as Presonus that sells both hardware and a DAW, I would have a better feeling. However, selling to a basically "cloud" company doesn't do much for me. BandLab probably bought Sonar at a relatively cheap "fire sale" price. Only hiring two ex Sonar employees doesn't seem like much for quick code development.
I too have bought another DAW (I've been on the edge for quite a while about another DAW and the Gibson abandonment was the impetus to make a decision). But, Sonar is still my production DAW and probably will be as long as it works.
The number of coders doesn't matter. Look how fast new features and bug fixes are incorporated into Reaper - it has an extremely fast development cycle with just one or two guys working.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 18:35:34
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Skyline_UK 2018/03/11 19:06:05
bnwitt
Trick your loyal base into forking over some cash right before you dissolve the company and then sell the code (not the obligations) to someone else. I saw Marriott do this years ago when they split their company into two entities, one with the assets and the other with the debt thus screwing over their bond holders.
When lifetime updates were introduced the idea was not to take money and then close the company, but was part of a long-term plan that was intended to keep the company going. When Cakewalk changed management, the original plan was scrapped and a different one put in place. It was a gamble that didn't pay off.
|
chuckebaby
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13146
- Joined: 2011/01/04 14:55:28
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 18:44:35
(permalink)
cparmerlee
chuckebaby
Cakewalk makes money no doubt, but its following I believe is loyal, word of mouth and long standing users such as yourself, myself and many others.
Maybe I am not reading your comment correctly. But I think it is safe to say that Cakewalk has not been profitable throughout the Roland and Gibson eras. Gibson has its problems for sure, but they are not in bankruptcy today. If Cakewalk was making a profit, they would have looked for a buyer rather than unceremoniously shutting it down.
Cakewalk had approx. 8-10 people developing Sonar. They now have 2 people developing Sonar. If Sonar could not make money, We wouldn't be sitting here talking about this right now. We would reminiscing on another forum about how bad it is that Sonar is gone. Gibson is about 10 weeks from bankruptcy. I am rather shocked you haven't read the articles. I'm not sure how, they are every where.. even CNBC https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/19/guitar-company-gibson-reportedly-facing-bankruptcy.html So your right, they are not bankrupt "Today" But either is Guitar center. Maybe you haven't heard. They owe money.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 20:31:00
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Soundwise 2018/03/11 22:08:25
sharke
I'll go out on a limb and suggest that Reaper does a lot more than Sonar and is a superior DAW in almost every way.
Universal statements assume people all use something in the same way, which they don't. For example, try creating a loop library that will stretch in other DAWs with Reaper. There's no matrix view, which regardless of whether it's underutilized or not, is a valuable songwriting and improvisational tool. No DSD import or export for your Japanese clients. No tempo extraction from freestyle playing. No upsampling, which is sooo much easier to do in Sonar than any other program. I'm not sure if Reaper has FX Chains but those are extremely valuable additions to both Studio One and Sonar. Sonar is also a more complete package - people who don't have the money to invest in lots of plug-ins will welcome features like the QuadCurve EQ (once you learn what those four curves can do, it's very difficult to obtain the same results in other EQs), TH3, Melodyne, Blue Tubes, phase-linear EQ with mid/side options per node (I know you can use ReaFIR as an linear-phase EQ, but it's clumsy and AFAIK doesn't offer mid-side processing), etc. I don't think those who want a complete package would dismiss them as just "goodies" but rather, see them as essential tools. Rapture Session also comes with some very useful sounds. I know Reaper is going to have ARA integration at some point (maybe it already does, I dunno), but Studio One has had it since 2011 and Sonar since 2013 IIRC. Now, maybe these features mean nothing to you. However, I would never say Sonar is superior to Reaper in "almost every way" just because Sonar has features I need and Reaper doesn't. Similarly, there are features in Studio One and Live that neither Sonar nor Reaper can touch. Try mastering an album in Reaper compared to Studio One. The reason why there are so many different DAWs is because different people have different needs. I'm really tired of this whole "my DAW is better than your DAW" sports team mentality. People should just use the DAW that's most congruent with their needs, and make music with it.
|
promidi
Max Output Level: -66 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1220
- Joined: 2014/11/21 18:46:39
- Location: South Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 20:57:02
(permalink)
sharke
I'll go out on a limb and suggest that Reaper does a lot more than Sonar and is a superior DAW in almost every way.
It would be more accurate to say that Reaper does a lot more than Sonar that you need it to do....
If someone uses Sonar's instrument definitions, user defined controller and NRPN names, support for Studioware panels, CAL support, etc, then they would say that Sonar does a lot more than Reaper does that they need it to do....
Windows 10 64bit fully patched, 16 gig ram . PCR-800 Controller. (Working in Win 10 1809 64bit)CPU: i5 4670. Video: Nvidia GTX560ti (latest drivers). Audio IF: Focusrite 2i2 2nd Gen
Internet always on.
Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab (2018.09 B29)
ASIO mode. 24bit 48khz 256 samples Rapture Pro, AAS GS2, VS-3, EP-4, VA-2, Chromophone 2, Z3TA+ 2, Addictive drums 2, Addictive Keys, Mpowersynth (latest), Iris 2, GPO5, Sampletank 3,
|
Bonjo
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 205
- Joined: 2011/07/21 11:59:28
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 21:03:46
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/03/12 15:28:56
I've no beef to grind with anyone. My SPLAT (lifetime subs etc), works perfectly for my needs. If it continues (who's ever at the helm), I've no real complaints. Hopefully, long may it continue. 
Win10 64-bit. Intel i7QuadCore 4.20GHz. 32Gb Ram. Sonar Platinum.
|
Rasure
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 584
- Joined: 2007/02/06 06:26:21
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 21:12:49
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/03/12 15:29:17
Anderton
features like the QuadCurve EQ (once you learn what those four curves can do, it's very difficult to obtain the same results in other EQs)
I agree, that EQ is the best sounding, smoothest EQ I have ever used. I wish it was available as a separate vst3 plugin. Studio One is incredible once you get to learn it, if only it had Sonars GUI and ProChannel lol.
|
tobiaslindahl
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 149
- Joined: 2016/08/23 13:51:12
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 21:16:43
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby burgerproduction 2018/03/13 16:32:30
If anyone feels limited by the features in Sonar ( and most other DAW's available today ) the problem is not with the DAWs but the talent and/or creativity of the person using them. The things we can do with DAWs today is simply insane and in the end they are there to create music, not play with the latest plugin and constantly look for new features and revisions, updates etc. Unless that is your thing ... in which case it is a neverending story.
I am happy to see Sonar being available for the forseeable future, as that means I dont have to worry about learing a new one and I can get on with playing and recording music, which Sonar does very well. It is not Sonars fault I dont have a nr 1 in the charts.
DAW users are sometimes VERY similair to audiophiles, they focus so much on the gear ( DAWs in our case ) they actually forget about the music.
|
cparmerlee
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1153
- Joined: 2013/06/25 22:14:42
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 22:46:44
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/03/12 15:30:06
bnwitt
abandoning the lifetime subscription users.
I think that is a premature judgment. Mr. Meng has indicated he sees the existing user base as an asset and intends to offer a crossgrade. I think we should give Bandlab a chance to work through the many re-launch issues before casting judgment. It is a lot more complicated than it might seem.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storagesonocrafters.com
|
cparmerlee
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1153
- Joined: 2013/06/25 22:14:42
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 23:01:50
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2018/03/12 01:11:27
chuckebaby
Cakewalk had approx. 8-10 people developing Sonar. They now have 2 people developing Sonar.
If Sonar could not make money, We wouldn't be sitting here talking about this right now.
We would reminiscing on another forum about how bad it is that Sonar is gone.
Yes. I am certainly aware of Gibson's precarious financials. I said they are not in bankruptcy, which is to say they have free will to sell their assets without requiring permission of a BK judge. If the Cakewalk piece was profitable, it would not have been difficult to find a buyer who would pay something better than zero. The fact they shut it down without a buyer is conclusive proof that it has not been profitable recently. Scaling down to a staff of 2 could conceivably make it "profitable" but only as a cash cow for a limited time and I doubt anybody here would be happy with that. MakeMusic basically did that with the Finale notation program. They fired all but a couple of their Minneapolis HQ employees and moved the whole thing to Colorado Springs. In 2 years they have produced something like 20 bug fixes and little else (to be fair, they did deliver a 64-bit-only version but it deleted so many prior features that it wasn't widely accepted.) Bandlab is a different kind of company, and what they are doing strikes me as very progressive. And I can see where a "studio-grade DAW" could make sense in their product line-up. And I could see how some of the other Cakewalk technology could add value to the pieces they already have in the marketplace. So this is not a "bailout", so to speak, where live will continue along a straight line from where it has been for 30 years. I expect a significantly different product direction, but I see no reason to expect they will dismantle the product that already exists.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storagesonocrafters.com
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 23:15:57
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2018/03/12 01:11:56
Waves Scheps Omni Channel does everything that Sonar's Pro Channel ever did and more. (its on special too I think still) There are a ton of EQ's out there that would easily match the Quad curve for its sound and features. You are wrong in thinking the Quad curve is the only EQ out there.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
Piotr
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 208
- Joined: 2014/12/25 20:30:44
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/11 23:38:32
(permalink)
tobiaslindahl
If anyone feels limited by the features in Sonar ( and most other DAW's available today ) the problem is not with the DAWs but the talent and/or creativity of the person using them.
[...]
This is only part of true and simplified one, I am afraid. Sonar has very crashy audio engine and is very gentle about plugins. Constantly fighting against results of bugs (reloading projects or Sonar again and again) has nothing to do with creativity. It just kill workflow completely... Another thing sometimes - with all my respect for excellent in many areas job of developers - lack of creativity is at development stage. One of many examples such 'unfinished' feature is implementing riples without button to switch it on/off and indicating current status. Probably most requested features about riples and... easiest to implement... It is work for few minutes, all needed thing for it already done, just create button with indication... Sonar has great potential and many excellent designs but need many loves for improvement and bug cleanings. To create save way for future I bought S1. Its engine is much more stable on the same machines I use Sonar (1-2 crash over few months). Well, I still prefer anyway to use Sonar as Skylight is amazing, for me best DAW GUI. But it cost me constant pain with crashes and strange behavior :( But I am happy it has new owner and this one differs from previous ones he seems really be excited this DAW, not just like another acquisition to broad pallette of products. So again I have a hope for bugs cleanup (maybe engine rewriting?) and improvements strongly oriented and tested on real and complete (!) workflows of people working with DAW.
Regards, Piotr Sonar Platinum Lifetime
|
Sir Les
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1182
- Joined: 2012/07/09 04:56:19
- Location: MONTREAL, QUEBEC, CANADA,
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 00:10:08
(permalink)
Well, in some circles...not all of them be circles...But whom owns what, and whom is going to be owned...or what, if we dig into financial corp take overs, and or unseen ownersheepship....Just to avoid any court or law....Things to undo, what was done.....Is or as it be is...Is..as it may be....So, it might be nice to see the product of Cake being served by so call other interested bought or sold....from or to, or in keeping...sold to avoid....Is just the shell game of some corps, tied hands or not but might be in future.....No one out side the loop, or circle needs know!...But could be....?
Now, Don't fooled by the radio, tv, or the magazines....Just remember that it is a grand illusion...and play liken children...find out the lingo, make a lookie see into the codex...and seek to solve!....Freely given, freely received as so, when made because it is a good thing, or very good thing made...Was a way of method...But denied by the anti of that method to employ cost fee and taxation to fuel..X,Y, Z to solve for...so when one pays, and they say this, that and the other as word is with it being the Working model of future this or that....and it is not proper sold, to make one pay to fix, what they did not break or make....and they say more is needed to solve, but one last payment for life...to get it right...and or the hook line and sinker offered as a might be is being worked upon...But is nothing more than a shell of what was, as given to say,...we tried....failed...and now are closed out of...sold out to?....
Interesting the reserection of...Is just to remove the cap, so it can make money again, and loose the owners of the licence by saying these other applications will take your licence of old, and give you another product, with the same muse attached....The cash cow is not a game for children...if it be tied to other things, some might not know it fuels.
So many perspectives one can look into...as a way to solve a problem put by words.
What say you?....I do not believe Cakewalk had bad intentions for this....and I believe, what is occurring now, can be just to take the product out of that Last offer many bought into...because it was not completely proper in its workings....
Now I know some were using older versions....But for me X1 was a turd...so x2 cost...and more fixes applied...still no glory for some...x3...still not proper for some...Seemingly dependent on type of gear, drivers, and OS changes...Keeps the application market on OS MS...in constant flux.
It is based on...the cash cow!....never proper, but always fixing....at the cost of the user...or con sue me er...If you like taking words apart....and changing meanings to mean....not what you read...but what it is.
Think outside the box, most heads have been in way too long ....trying to make it work.....some have said it does, some not so saying it be totally stable and makes errors with files and such being either corrupted, or just not able to get it locked to the drivers of audio gear..always being lost...or crashing on start up, or hanging...
Saw enough...not sure who is to blame...but part to blame is the one who buys.....also, be a fool when stuff like this occurs....What did you expect from a Cash cow system?...Life time updates or something?
Oh yah words....eh?
1. Intel 5960x 3.5mhz , ASUS x99 deluxe u3.1, Asus Thunderbolt ex II, G skills f4 3000 Memory 32GB , ADATA ssd 250GB Main Drive, Lots of WD Red 7200 Mechanical Drives with Black Drives, 14x multi optical Drive, LG Multi Blu Drive, 2X Extern WD Mybooks usb 3.0, AMD r7 270 video card, Motu 828x TB , Motu Midi XT. 2. USING MAC PRO, as win 10 has damaged 2 x99 systems 8.1 is also to blame for the final burnout trying to roll back! 3. Something Wonderful: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlHkRy9cXBbYpQNvVBCt8r7fQ5PS
|
Rasure
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 584
- Joined: 2007/02/06 06:26:21
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 00:18:16
(permalink)
Jeff Evans
Waves Scheps Omni Channel does everything that Sonar's Pro Channel ever did and more. (its on special too I think still) There are a ton of EQ's out there that would easily match the Quad curve for its sound and features. You are wrong in thinking the Quad curve is the only EQ out there.
Yes, I have the Scheps, its "ok". I didn't say the quad curve EQ was the only one out there. I said its the best sounding and smoothest, to my ears, especially the filters. Most EQ filters have an odd phasey sound, even the Scheps Omni Channel does. The Studio One Pro EQ in general sounds awful to my ears, the FatChannel EQ is a little better though. I did try these and purchased them https://kilohearts.com/products/khs_equalizers they are the closest to the Quad Curve smoothness IMO :-)
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 00:24:50
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Kamikaze 2018/03/12 00:35:09
Anderton
sharke
I'll go out on a limb and suggest that Reaper does a lot more than Sonar and is a superior DAW in almost every way.
Universal statements assume people all use something in the same way, which they don't. For example, try creating a loop library that will stretch in other DAWs with Reaper. There's no matrix view, which regardless of whether it's underutilized or not, is a valuable songwriting and improvisational tool. No DSD import or export for your Japanese clients. No tempo extraction from freestyle playing. No upsampling, which is sooo much easier to do in Sonar than any other program. I'm not sure if Reaper has FX Chains but those are extremely valuable additions to both Studio One and Sonar.
Sonar is also a more complete package - people who don't have the money to invest in lots of plug-ins will welcome features like the QuadCurve EQ (once you learn what those four curves can do, it's very difficult to obtain the same results in other EQs), TH3, Melodyne, Blue Tubes, phase-linear EQ with mid/side options per node (I know you can use ReaFIR as an linear-phase EQ, but it's clumsy and AFAIK doesn't offer mid-side processing), etc. I don't think those who want a complete package would dismiss them as just "goodies" but rather, see them as essential tools. Rapture Session also comes with some very useful sounds.
I know Reaper is going to have ARA integration at some point (maybe it already does, I dunno), but Studio One has had it since 2011 and Sonar since 2013 IIRC.
Now, maybe these features mean nothing to you. However, I would never say Sonar is superior to Reaper in "almost every way" just because Sonar has features I need and Reaper doesn't. Similarly, there are features in Studio One and Live that neither Sonar nor Reaper can touch. Try mastering an album in Reaper compared to Studio One.
The reason why there are so many different DAWs is because different people have different needs. I'm really tired of this whole "my DAW is better than your DAW" sports team mentality. People should just use the DAW that's most congruent with their needs, and make music with it.
That's why I said "in almost every way." I was recognizing the fact that Sonar has features that Reaper doesn't. I'm talking about its core functionality. It runs smoother, is more snappy, is more CPU efficient, more stable and virtually every core DAW feature that I use on a day to day basis is better designed and works better than Sonar's equivalent. And I also recognized the fact that it doesn't come with a lot of "goodies." But if you've already built up a collection of 3rd party tools, it's an incredibly high powered, well designed, infinitely configurable DAW which runs like a dream in ways that I could never have imagined with Sonar. I've had the opportunity of running identical projects (same tracks, same plugins) side by side in Reaper and Sonar and Sonar feels like a geriatric in comparison. Sonar's big downfall IMO was that there was too much emphasis on packing so many features into the program, and not enough emphasis on making the core functionality solid. In the course of my typical session with Sonar, I encounter so many bugs and annoyances it has me tearing my hair out. Doing things the same things in Reaper, I haven't encountered a single bug or crash or anything that had me yelling at the screen. I'm sure it does have bugs (all software does) but the bug situation is clearly less serious. And from all of the examples of fantastic, well thought out design that I encounter in every session, I get the overwhelming feeling that it's been developed with a lot of user input (i.e. in most cases no brainer improvements & features just get done, rather than people having to harp on about them for years with no joy). By the way, I'd wager that Pro-Q 2 can achieve any curves the Quadcurve can (as well as anything else you can think of even up to the most extreme square-sided bell curves which I'm finding incredibly useful for removing harshness from tracks). The Quadcurve is indeed a great EQ, but saying that nothing else can do what it does is a little inaccurate. After all it's just a basic EQ with a couple of SSL emulation modes, of which there are others available.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
cparmerlee
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1153
- Joined: 2013/06/25 22:14:42
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 00:39:33
(permalink)
Sir Les
Well, in some circles...not all of them be circles...But whom owns what, and whom is going to be owned...or what, if we dig into financial corp take overs, and or unseen ownersheepship....Just to avoid any court or law....Things to undo, what was done.....Is or as it be is...Is..as it may be....So, it might be nice to see the product of Cake being served by so call other interested bought or sold....from or to, or in keeping...sold to avoid....Is just the shell game of some corps, tied hands or not but might be in future.....No one out side the loop, or circle needs know!...But could be....?
...
Saw enough...not sure who is to blame...but part to blame is the one who buys.....also, be a fool when stuff like this occurs....What did you expect from a Cash cow system?...Life time updates or something?
Oh yah words....eh?
I didn't understand a word of that, but I wholeheartedly agree with whatever you said. :)
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storagesonocrafters.com
|
cparmerlee
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1153
- Joined: 2013/06/25 22:14:42
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 00:43:17
(permalink)
Rasure
Most EQ filters have an odd phasey sound, even the Scheps Omni Channel does. The Studio One Pro EQ in general sounds awful to my ears, the FatChannel EQ is a little better though. I did try these and purchased them https://kilohearts.com/products/khs_equalizers they are the closest to the Quad Curve smoothness IMO :-)
My ears aren't well-trained enough to clearly hear the things you are talking about. Just curious if you have tried the EQs in Izotope Neutron (there's a traditional parametric EQ and a dynamic EQ). Where would you put that on the smoothness spectrum?
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storagesonocrafters.com
|
Kev999
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3922
- Joined: 2007/05/01 14:22:54
- Location: Victoria, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 00:46:07
(permalink)
cparmerlee
...If the Cakewalk piece was profitable, it would not have been difficult to find a buyer who would pay something better than zero. The fact they shut it down without a buyer is conclusive proof that it has not been profitable recently...
I was assuming the same thing a while back, but comments from people with inside knowledge suggest otherwise. Apparently CW was actually making a profit but suffering from from lack of clear direction, due to a combination of bad management decisions plus some good decisions not properly followed through.
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1
Audient:iD22+ASP800|KRK:VXT6|+various-outboard-gear|+guitars&basses, etc.
Having fun at work lately
|
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Cakewalk Staff
- Total Posts : 6475
- Joined: 2003/11/03 17:22:50
- Location: Boston, MA, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 00:46:24
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby razor 2018/03/12 21:48:35
chuckebaby
Cakewalk had approx. 8-10 people developing Sonar. They now have 2 people developing Sonar.
Not sure where you got that information but its inaccurate. In 2017 there were only 3 full time engineers working on SONAR. The others were working on Momentum, plugins and another product that was never released. Yes the dev's are that good :) Having two people working on SONAR isn't a stretch. The most we've had working on SONAR for sustained period of time in the last 7 years has been about 6 people. Most engineers time shared alongside other projects most of the time.
|
Kamikaze
Max Output Level: -45 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3013
- Joined: 2015/01/15 21:38:59
- Location: Da Nang, Vietnam
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 00:49:33
(permalink)
Years of users leaving due to 'issues' that they did not find in alternative systems, and s did not return, has been highly damaging to Sonar reputation. Cakewalk and Sonar have always struggled to be rated among the other DAWs, it was third in a three horse race, and now it's a stampede.
Hopefully this down time will mean that BandLab get it right, and with their customer base draw on a new market to give the program a more positive profile.
|
Kamikaze
Max Output Level: -45 dBFS
- Total Posts : 3013
- Joined: 2015/01/15 21:38:59
- Location: Da Nang, Vietnam
- Status: offline
Re: Hard Honesty, Mixed Feelings on the Fate of SONAR
2018/03/12 01:15:26
(permalink)
Rasure
Jeff Evans
Waves Scheps Omni Channel does everything that Sonar's Pro Channel ever did and more. (its on special too I think still) There are a ton of EQ's out there that would easily match the Quad curve for its sound and features. You are wrong in thinking the Quad curve is the only EQ out there.
Yes, I have the Scheps, its "ok". I didn't say the quad curve EQ was the only one out there. I said its the best sounding and smoothest, to my ears, especially the filters. Most EQ filters have an odd phasey sound, even the Scheps Omni Channel does. The Studio One Pro EQ in general sounds awful to my ears, the FatChannel EQ is a little better though. I did try these and purchased them https://kilohearts.com/products/khs_equalizers they are the closest to the Quad Curve smoothness IMO :-)
I have the schepps. but I still prefer the PrChannel, because not every track needs mre than few plugs, and being able to compare several tracks in on view with their plugs rather than changing through 3-4 Omni Channes is easier. Compared t the default Prochannel, the omni can do more, but not compared to the expanded ProChannel. But here I think cakewalk missed a trick in not getting enough ProChannel Partners, to make it a really creative tool. I purchsed the Kilohearts bundle at the weekend, similar to the ProChannel and Omni, and it's can do more than both of them, The Multi Band and Parallel Option, and it will continue to expand. I can't help looking at it and thinking, BandLab should partner with them, it would double the number of tools, and take the ProChannel even further with capabilities. It wuold be awesome
|