Helpful ReplyHolophonic Sounds

Author
Mesh
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 27360
  • Joined: 2009/11/27 14:08:08
  • Location: Online right here!
  • Status: offline
2016/03/16 12:18:55 (permalink)

Holophonic Sounds

I accidentally ran into a Youtube video where this channel states: "My channel is for the advancement in audio, and It features Holophonic Dimensional Sound!"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgH2n55DjYMygiDGscQpIVw
 
I was listening (on H-Phones) to SRV's The Sky is Crying, Dream Weaver, and was really impressed with the quality and all the spatial dimensions/nuances etc....(I also briefly looked up Holophonic Sound - https://www.sound-ideas.com/Page/what-is-holophonic-sound.aspx)
 
It did give a "wow" factor when listening, unlike most of what's on Youtube which ranges from crap to excellent........this is a welcome site.....bookmarking this Audio Max 3D channel.

Platinum Gaming DAW: AsRock Z77 Overclock Formula
I7 3770k @ 4.5GHz : 16GB RAM G.Skill Ripjaws X
250GB OS SSD : 3TB HDD : 1TB Sample HDD
Win 10 Pro x 64 : NH-D14 CPU Cooler 
HIS IceQ  2GB HD 7870
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
The_Forum_Monkeys
#1
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 12:45:43 (permalink)
The Zuccarelli claims are, let's say, dubious:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holophonics
 

Zuccarelli states that the human auditory system is a sound emitter, producing a reference sound that combines with incoming sound to form an interference pattern inside the ear. 

 

The effects achieved may be comparable to traditional binaural recording using mannequin heads, or via more traditional 3D audio techniques via HRTFs. There is no evidence, nor studies conducted, to indicate that the holophonic technique is substantially different from or superior to these methods, nor has Zuccarelli ever published his technique, nor has he allowed independent study of the results. The only available publication is a patent,[4] which describes a fairly typical dummy-head binaural recording.

 
However that doesn't mean stuff can't sound "nice". 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#2
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 86000
  • Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
  • Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 12:51:47 (permalink)
drewfx1
 

Zuccarelli states that the human auditory system is a sound emitter, producing a reference sound that combines with incoming sound to form an interference pattern inside the ear. 

 

The effects achieved may be comparable to traditional binaural recording using mannequin heads, or via more traditional 3D audio techniques via HRTFs. There is no evidence, nor studies conducted, to indicate that the holophonic technique is substantially different from or superior to these methods, nor has Zuccarelli ever published his technique, nor has he allowed independent study of the results. The only available publication is a patent,[4] which describes a fairly typical dummy-head binaural recording.

 
 

Did Lurssen write that?
#3
Mesh
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 27360
  • Joined: 2009/11/27 14:08:08
  • Location: Online right here!
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 13:19:19 (permalink)
I'm not sure of all that dubiosity schtuff.......me ears tells me it sounds gouda and bettera.

Platinum Gaming DAW: AsRock Z77 Overclock Formula
I7 3770k @ 4.5GHz : 16GB RAM G.Skill Ripjaws X
250GB OS SSD : 3TB HDD : 1TB Sample HDD
Win 10 Pro x 64 : NH-D14 CPU Cooler 
HIS IceQ  2GB HD 7870
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
The_Forum_Monkeys
#4
Mesh
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 27360
  • Joined: 2009/11/27 14:08:08
  • Location: Online right here!
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 14:25:32 (permalink)
Some examples:
 
PF: Hey_Ewe :)
 
LZ: WHole_lotta_Love
 
Joe Cocker: You_are_so_beauiful_to_me
 
Metallica: Nothing_Else_Matters

Platinum Gaming DAW: AsRock Z77 Overclock Formula
I7 3770k @ 4.5GHz : 16GB RAM G.Skill Ripjaws X
250GB OS SSD : 3TB HDD : 1TB Sample HDD
Win 10 Pro x 64 : NH-D14 CPU Cooler 
HIS IceQ  2GB HD 7870
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
The_Forum_Monkeys
#5
bayoubill
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10899
  • Joined: 2009/04/27 06:11:12
  • Location: Shreveport Louisiana
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 14:29:04 (permalink)
I really like Nothing Else Matters
Thanks Mesh!

SWAMP MUSIC
Sonar PLATINUM        
Studio Cat DAW
 
 
      
  
 
#6
Mesh
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 27360
  • Joined: 2009/11/27 14:08:08
  • Location: Online right here!
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 14:34:42 (permalink)
bayoubill
I really like Nothing Else Matters
Thanks Mesh!


Did you listen with your H-phones? Very good on the cans :))
 
Also, that Zep tune is some 23 min with a lot of other songs in the middle.  

Platinum Gaming DAW: AsRock Z77 Overclock Formula
I7 3770k @ 4.5GHz : 16GB RAM G.Skill Ripjaws X
250GB OS SSD : 3TB HDD : 1TB Sample HDD
Win 10 Pro x 64 : NH-D14 CPU Cooler 
HIS IceQ  2GB HD 7870
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
The_Forum_Monkeys
#7
bayoubill
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 10899
  • Joined: 2009/04/27 06:11:12
  • Location: Shreveport Louisiana
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 14:36:25 (permalink)
yep phews on! I will ! tanks!

SWAMP MUSIC
Sonar PLATINUM        
Studio Cat DAW
 
 
      
  
 
#8
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 15:14:41 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mesh 2016/03/16 15:33:42
I'm sorry to say they all sound weird and processed to me, but then I've never had much luck with most binaural processing.
 
 
But one thing I'd like to do sometime is play around with some HRTF impulses with a convolution plugin to see what I could get.
 
There's a collection of HRTF data here:
 
http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salles/listen/index.html
 
Sample files for 3D panning done with a variety of HRTF measurements (from different people) are available here:
 
http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salles/listen/sounds.html
 
The idea is to find one that matches well with you and go from there. Some of them are pretty good for me (when wearing headphones).
 
The corresponding IR files (at least that's what I think they are) are here:
 
http://recherche.ircam.fr/equipes/salles/listen/download.html
 
 
 
I'd suspect the youtube music links were processed from 5.1 sources using some sort of similar processing.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#9
Mesh
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 27360
  • Joined: 2009/11/27 14:08:08
  • Location: Online right here!
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 15:24:33 (permalink)
I also think the sound seems to be processed (more verb??) and widening of the stereo field. Compared to what 'most' of Youtube's other vids are, these tracks do sound more pleasing (IMO)....not all of them though.

Platinum Gaming DAW: AsRock Z77 Overclock Formula
I7 3770k @ 4.5GHz : 16GB RAM G.Skill Ripjaws X
250GB OS SSD : 3TB HDD : 1TB Sample HDD
Win 10 Pro x 64 : NH-D14 CPU Cooler 
HIS IceQ  2GB HD 7870
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
The_Forum_Monkeys
#10
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 15:55:46 (permalink)
They didn't sound more pleasing to me; they sounded weird in an unpleasant way.
 
But if you listen to a few of the HRTF processed samples I linked to above - which are all the same 3D panning but processed for different people - some of them sound really weird at different pan positions vs. others.
 
So anything processed using various 3D techniques probably won't sound as weird and processed to some as it does to others.
 
The HRTF's are based on the shape of one's ears, head and body and how they affect sound arriving from different directions. Personally I've never had much luck with such things, but my explanation is that it must be because the shape of my ears, head and body are so far above average. 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#11
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 15:56:13 (permalink)
bapu
Did Lurssen write that?



Who?

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#12
Mesh
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 27360
  • Joined: 2009/11/27 14:08:08
  • Location: Online right here!
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 16:12:01 (permalink)
drewfx1
They didn't sound more pleasing to me; they sounded weird in an unpleasant way.
 
But if you listen to a few of the HRTF processed samples I linked to above - which are all the same 3D panning but processed for different people - some of them sound really weird at different pan positions vs. others.
 
So anything processed using various 3D techniques probably won't sound as weird and processed to some as it does to others.
 
The HRTF's are based on the shape of one's ears, head and body and how they affect sound arriving from different directions. Personally I've never had much luck with such things, but my explanation is that it must be because the shape of my ears, head and body are so far above average. 


I'll definitely check it out at home Drew (it's a blocked site at work).......very interesting stuff here (although I'm ignorant on the details/theories), I find it fascinating. :)) 

Platinum Gaming DAW: AsRock Z77 Overclock Formula
I7 3770k @ 4.5GHz : 16GB RAM G.Skill Ripjaws X
250GB OS SSD : 3TB HDD : 1TB Sample HDD
Win 10 Pro x 64 : NH-D14 CPU Cooler 
HIS IceQ  2GB HD 7870
Focusrite Scarlett 2i4
The_Forum_Monkeys
#13
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 16:52:51 (permalink)
The basic idea is something like things arriving at each of our ears from different locations (and distances) varies not just in the time and level it arrives at each ear, but also things like frequency response based the shape and size of, and reflections off of, or having to travel around our outer ear, head and body. HRTF stands for Head Related Transfer Function.
 
It's a little bit different for everyone and apparently we learn how to figure out where a sound is coming from by experiencing how those things affect sounds coming from different directions.
 
Unfortunately it's different for different people and how well it works for someone depends on how close one's own HRTF is to the HRTF actually used. It also doesn't really work with speakers.
 
 
Something that a number of us who try to understand how the audio works in the real world lament is that the audio industry's endless focus on trying to repeatedly sell almost complete bogus "HD audio" stuff is effort they could better spend on spatial processing technology suitable for average consumers. But I suspect that most of the progress in this area will have to filter down from the gaming industry instead.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#14
craigb
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 41704
  • Joined: 2009/01/28 23:13:04
  • Location: The Pacific Northwestshire
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 17:13:35 (permalink)
I don't need any holophonic sounds.  Mushrooms work just fine. 

 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#15
eph221
Max Output Level: -28.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 4665
  • Joined: 2014/12/22 05:06:50
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/16 18:42:31 (permalink)
 was worried, thought you said *homophobic sounds*
#16
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/17 12:51:42 (permalink)
After reading up on it and listening to the Dream Weaver sample, I think it's safe to simply call bullsh!t on Holographic sound. 
 
"Zuccarelli states that the human auditory system is a sound emitter, producing a reference sound that combines with incoming sound to form an interference pattern inside the ear. "
 
Even if that were true, and I doubt it is, it fails to explain how an interference pattern might aid in localization, or why it would be needed. Curiously, the inventor has filed a patent but has never actually described his method publicly. The patent simply describes using a dummy head between two microphones.
 
Here's a guy showing how to build a holophonic microphone, which consists of two mikes stuffed into a mannequin head. Otherwise known as binaural recording, but that's been around forever so he had to invent "holographic sound" to convince some clueless patent examiner that the idea was new and novel.
 
In any case, the sample I listened to sounded just awful on both headphones and speakers. Even if there is anything to the theory, if that's an example of what to expect then I'm not interested. (Actually, I suspect it was just a very bad recording.)


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#17
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 6585
  • Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/17 13:14:07 (permalink)
bitflipper 
In any case, the sample I listened to sounded just awful on both headphones and speakers. Even if there is anything to the theory, if that's an example of what to expect then I'm not interested. (Actually, I suspect it was just a very bad recording.)




In this case I find it a bit hard to believe that the folks who don't hear what you and I are hearing are being "tricked" or imagining things. Because it sounded really bad to me too.
 
My guess is that it's just processed using traditional binaural (with perhaps magic sprinkles on top that do nothing), but the HRTF used for the binaural processing is just a really, really bad match for some of us.
 
 
The Zucarrelli stuff was actually used by Roger Waters back in the early to mid eighties and didn't sound like this. I distinctly remember a live radio broadcast he did back in the day in which he touted it in an interview beforehand. I suspect the reason he bought into it so much was that the binaural part really can work but he was probably unfamiliar with that stuff. And most of the time when people believe in magic it's because they happen to be (sometimes understandably) ignorant about certain pertinent things about reality.
 
And I think the fact that this hasn't made a dent in the 30+ years since Roger was touting it speaks for itself.

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#18
craigb
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 41704
  • Joined: 2009/01/28 23:13:04
  • Location: The Pacific Northwestshire
  • Status: offline
Re: Holophonic Sounds 2016/03/17 15:51:30 (permalink)
 


 
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
#19
Jump to:
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1