Home studios, daws and so forth - is this mainly a guy thing?

I think women like to sing more than actually compose on a computer. I think they are more into playing a guitar, or keyboard, than something like this.. Or singing a tune, and saying, "Can you put music to that ?".. Just my opinion of couse, or at least, that's how it seems to me anyway.

Hi Bo-

ORIGINAL: kilgoretrout

Hi
Curiosity strikes again.
While I occasionally see names that I am certain are female (like Susan, who has good comments), I get the impression that this home recording thing is like 97.3% male, 2.7% female, +/- 20% margin of estmate error.

Are there many of the female persuasion into this hobby, or is it more akin to gun collecting?

I am interested because I have known a lot of very good female musicians, but I think I have met like 1 that was into recording.

Thanks

I've noticed the same thing, but I don't know the answer to your question. There certainly are many very accomplished women in the recording field, but very few are readily identifiable as females on forums like this.

I honestly don't know why that is. I've said it before and I'll say it again, that this forum is very welcoming to women, so I don't think that's it. Maybe there are some female "lurkers" here that we just don't know about.

I honestly don't know...

-Susan

There are some well known mastering female engineers in The Village in NYC. They were featured in MIX a bit ago.

Ogis, I assure you that my dramatic aside was purely humurous. If it helps, try imagining my first post being delivered cockney-style, with much winking and stretching of the trouser braces betwixt thumbs and forefingers.

sucessfully setting up a computer based recording studio requires a huge amount of low level technical knowledge. very few women have that.

there are not many women who can tell you their pci latency for each device - women in computers tend to be help desk staff (needs small amount of tech knowledge) or programmers (refuse to ever go under the hood)

i suspect that in the "hardware solution" digital multitrack area there are far more women.

also, most chicks have guys falling over themselves to offer free recording, so why would they need to learn?

:)

m

I know when I was starting out in engineering there was a lot of talk about how there are so few women in engineering. I think it is reflection of how few women ther are in music overall. In my own local scene there are slightly more, but in the punk/alteranative/experimental scene it has always been more open.
Another way to look at it is to use a car analogy. Men and women both drive cars, but guys seem more likely to go to kragen and buy parts and try and fix it themselves. Me personally I sometimes wish I had never got into the whole home studio thing. The amount of time I waste on non-musical troubleshooting is absurd! But I've been fascinated with this kind of stuff since I was a kid, so I guess it is inevitable.

There are certainly notable women in this industry, but the assumption is correct. It is an industry populated overwhelmingly by men. That is true of the home/hobby side and the paid/professional side.

I think the basic explaination (as long as you stay on the surface of it) is pretty simple. Engineering and electronic music production is a highly technical field as well as an art field.

Women tend to be less represented in technical fields. And I don't see it so much as a glass ceiling thing either. Think of auto mechanics, electronic engineers, programmers, and plumbers... These are all fields that are accesable to most people nomatter gender, but for some reason women do not fell attracted to these industries.

Please understand that I am not advocating any sort of gender bias. Nor am I ignoring it. I will let the reasons for this and it's possible changes in the future be argued by activists and sociology professionals. Because so many views on this sort of issue are charged by bias it is difficult to discuss. And those biases can be on either side "women are not good at math" vs. "men won't ask for directions". ;)

My own mother is a professional in a male dominated area also connected to the arts. She is a percussionist.

I will go out on a limb to reveal my own gender oriented judgement. I think women have a very interesting challenge and oppoutunity as recordists. The challenge is the simple old problem of getting men AND women to trust their expertise. We all face that but women are easily argued to have a different hill to climb. However, I do believe in a basic difference between the sexes and have seen it expressed in my own studio. I remember the first female bass player I recorded. She was good. She had that thing we all want, a personal touch that expressed itself in the groove she laid down. And as far as I could hear there was WOMAN all over it. Something more gentle, subtle and beautifully feminine than the majority of equally talented male players.

In the same way, I think a woman can have an interesting advantage in engineering and electronic composition. It is maked by the individuality of her as a person, but perhaps also by her as a woman.

I have two daughters. I will support them in almost any endevor. But I would be doubly blessed if either of them chose (electronic) music or engineering as a hobby or profession.

cAPS

ORIGINAL: cAPSLOCK

Please understand that I am not advocating any sort of gender bias. Nor am I ignoring it. I will let the reasons for this and it's possible changes in the future be argued by activists and sociology professionals. Because so many views on this sort of issue are charged by bias it is difficult to discuss. And those biases can be on either side "women are not good at math" vs. "men won't ask for directions". ;)

The real interesting question is not, if there are differences between men and women (they are undenieable wether in statistics nor in personal experiences), but where they come from. This is a kind of a question of authority between sociology and biology. Today biology is in advance, because of resent researches that explore the differences in the gender-based brain-functionalities. And personally I think that many people tend to rather believe the biological approach, because it makes things easier. People like to say "sorry, but that is my nature" rather than to work at their habits and believes. My personal opinion is that as a human you are able to work on your skills consciously, so I tend to not accept this kind of excusions. One example: In athletics coloured people are leading in most disciplines nowadays not at least because of their slightely superior biological fundamentals (statistically of course). These can be explained evolutionary. But that are very slight differences, that make a difference only when it comes to top-performances, where the last biological resources are used to an extrem extend. But this doesn`t mean that "white" people are not capable of top-performances or cannot compete at all. Because every discipline or skill is about 10% talent (=nature) and 90% hard work. (The percentages are just estimations of course)

also from a playing perspective, female drummers and bass players have a totally different "vibe" than male rhythm sections. very understated, no ego playing, and a relaxed sense of groove thats very funky but not in an aggressive james brown sense.

more earthy!

and im not talking about the skinny junkie girl bass players in the small dress stereotype - never worked with any of them


m

This is a curious question. But I refuse to believe that there is some 'pre-disposed' reason why women or men should be better at different things. I don't like any stereotypes. It puts people in boxes and all people (male or female) have the potential to do anything that anyone else can do. I believe it is more cultural as to why more women are not in these fields. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. As long as a person brings the skills, I could care less about their gender ( or just about anything else).

Hi Bo-

Susan, do you find the explanation that the lack of low level technical abilities is true?

I don't agree with any of mildew's comments, starting with "sucessfully setting up a computer based recording studio requires a huge amount of low level technical knowledge"! It just doesn't, IME, and even if you do run into a conflict of some sort, it's usually easily sorted out with a post here or a call to Tech Support.

Mildew: I also disagree with your generalization about Help Desk staffers. Yes, sometimes it's "Click Start, then this and that and enter blah-blah", but it's often much more complicated than that. It's not uncommon for a company to require that their support reps have very advanced troubleshooting skills, including experience with several different operating systems, different software versions, hardware, drivers, etc. It depends totally on the product(s) they're supporting.

I've worked at four IT companies over the years, and so far, two of my department managers have been female, two male. At the largest company I worked for, the manager was female. At the smallest, the manager was male. I have no idea what that means, but suffice it to say that I've encountered very competent and relatively incompetent people at all levels of both genders over the years. My first career was as a performing/teaching classical musician, and I honestly don't recall encountering any gender bias during those 15 years.

Or could it be that guys are more gadget oriented? I have to say, I do love gadgets.

I've always loved gadgets, and some of my female friends do, too, but I'd say the majority [of my female friends] could care less. I absolutely can't cook worth a darn, but I still eye all the kitchen gadgets on the shelves and I have to avoid infomercials like the plague!

Two of my very early childhood memories are setting up a crude "one-person band", with all kinds of noise-makers and percussion instruments, and a faux, totally non-functional reel-to-reel tape recorder! Oh, and I do remember having a walking/talking doll, but what was the point of that, I wondered?

-Susan

SOmeone suggested that males are less likely to ask for directions. If so, then these forums would have a lower percentage of males than the installed base of DAWs would indicate, since these guys would be less likely to ask for help.

Ah, but asking for help anonomously (spelt right?) through a mostly non-personal forum is far easier than asking for help face to face. Most men will happilly look at a map, or a route planner, but they would never dare ask for directions!

(note that this is not literal, it's more conceptual)

ORIGINAL: sandman5000

This is a curious question. But I refuse to believe that there is some 'pre-disposed' reason why women or men should be better at different things.

The odd thing about this statement is it is in itself a predisposition.

ORIGINAL: sandman5000
I don't like any stereotypes. It puts people in boxes and all people (male or female) have the potential to do anything that anyone else can do.

I agree that stereotypes can be needlessly limiting. But your second statemnt is simply false. Especially concerning groups, which this topic is addressing. But it is often false even in the case of individuals. For example: I am a road biker. I am pretty fast, but I do not have the potential to win a race against Lance Armstrong. It is not because I have not been dedicated to the sport. I used to ride ~170 miles a week. But my body type, VO2 MAX, muscle composition, among other things I cannot control limit me.

Take that example one step further. If you can find me one female road biker that would best Mr. Armstrong at a time trial (both being at the top of their conditioning), and I will give you $100.

Genetics also limit me as compared to women in general. I am less limber than women in general. And as a recent father (again) my wife would be pleased if my breasts were more capable of lactation than they are (and yes, it IS possible for men to lactate), but our new daughter would languish quickly if she were to try to feed only at my breast. ;)

Obviously these examples consider biology as the primary difference. It could be argued that there are differences in the male and female soul as well, but that is a much less quantifiable line of thought.

Still, I think it is easily quantifiable that within the scope of biology there is a difference between brain chemestry across the sexes. This may have something to do with the work men and women choose to do.

ORIGINAL: sandman5000
I believe it is more cultural as to why more women are not in these fields. Either way, it doesn't matter to me. As long as a person brings the skills, I could care less about their gender ( or just about anything else).

I agree with you here.

The problem is not that there is a difference in general aptitude between the sexes in specific disciplines. Not even if people choose different paths based on purely social pressure, which even though it is unneccesary is a fact in all the cultures of the world.

The problem is when people apply sweeping value judgements against a group based on a stereotype. "Men are better than women because they are stonger". "Women are better than men because they are more sensitive." The stereotypes that in general men are better at sports, or in general women are better at fostering relationships are not dangerous in themselves. It is the judgement that occurs after that is the sticky point.

If I were to say: "I don't want Julie to mix my album because I want a wizard to do it and only men are wizards." Then I would be in this kind of error.

cAPS

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Two new guys were hired after me, and got at least two days of one-on-one training with the Manager and Assistant Manager. Clearly, the new guys got preferential treatment.

While I am with you on this issue in general, allow me to ask why it is so clear that this disregard of you is based on gender-biased prejudices. I was accused this way once by a woman in a situation it had absolutely nothing to do with gender-biased issues. I was speechless.... Afterwards I heard that she had some bad experiences of that kind. Because of that explanation I was able to deal with it sensitively, otherwise I may have assumed that she is trying to destroy my reputation or something similar. But sometimes it is very tiring to be so careful....

ORIGINAL: John T

Hmm. It's fairly simple, this, I think. If Susan is in a situation whereby men get proper training and women don;t, then there's a clear gender bias. We could spend our time fishing for some other reason, but why bother? The men got trained, the woman didn't. I don't really care about the reason, or stated reason, or justified-after-the-fact reason. The fact is, the woman was observably, factually treated less equally than the men were observably, factually treated.

Don't really get why we should struggle to find positive interpretations of this. It's just plain not good enough.

I didn`t say that there is a "positive" or justifying interpretation, I was just wondering if her interpretation could be biased by her former experiences. I was not there, so I just politely asked if there are possible other reasons. The way she described it 2:1 is no relevant number to treat her conclusion (that she was disregarded because she is a woman) as a fact like you do. If she keeps making such experiences over time at that company I wouldn`t even wonder, she would be obviously right. But we are somehow off-topic right now.