Honest critique please.

I've been working on getting a better mix for this song and would really appreciate an honest critique on the mix. Where am I falling short? Do the drums sound awful? Too much low end, guitars suck....things like that.
 
 
 
Edit for final mix. https://soundcloud.com/clintmartin/a-prelude-to-september-mix
 
 
 
P.S. Sorry I've been away for awhile. We had a death in the family and it was a long ordeal. I'll be trying to catch up with my listening soon.

As Bob said, I'm also a fan of Big Drums but I think first I would cut some midrange on all guitars. To my ears they're borderline muddy. I would probably add some high end to the kick drum. It will make it cut through more. And as Bob said also, that's just my subjective opinion. Great Job!

Thanks for your opinions so far. I hope there will be more. I appreciate it guys!

I love the mix... love guitar tones, bass sounds great... Drum could come up a bit, but it's well balanced as is...

Absolutely awesome on my system; I could see the drum bus up slightly as have been suggested above but I was quite blown away by the playing and arrangement :)

Sounds pretty good. I would cut a nice fat Q around 3k on the rhythm guitars when you go into the lead to leave some space for it.
 
The guitars are too up front, robbing the drums of some of their power. Try backing off a hair and adding some room reverb, as they are sitting RIGHT HERE up front, like you recorded direct and this is what you get.
 
Add a stereo widener on the drums on a separate buss with a HPF up to about 1.4k. That should open them up a bit. Though I must say they need a little swing to them and velocity variations as it def sounds like a stock pattern.

Awesome playing, you got some great chops!
I'm listening at work on some small computer speakers so I cant really comment on EQ, but I do agree with others I'd like to hear more drums.
But please, not at the expense of that SWEET guitar! Keep it right out front!

Hi Clint,
 
I'd like to give you my take if you don't mind? All subjective really, so feel free to disregard what I have to say here if you decide to. :) Pretty good job on this over-all. Agree with Wookie (John, your little furry ears are really starting to be tune in brother...quite a few of your critiques have been spot on in my opinion) on the kick needing a bit more beater slap. We can feel it, but the additional slap (sometimes a bit of 6k to 8k can give you just what you need.) it will be right where it needs to be in my opinion.
 
I personally like the guitars up front and direct like that (depending on the sound) because this is pretty much how guys are doing it today. It's rare you hear much room in modern guitar tones....if that's what you're going for of course. Reverb tails and "hearing the room" in rock stuff is sort of rare these days. However, it DOES still exist and there's nothing wrong with doing it on your tracks. I'd be guessing here but I'd think James might feel a bit like me. Meaning...small ambient rooms instead of verbs with tails. They really are the way to go...more along the lines of pro impulses for me. Reverbs just don't cut it for me anymore...impulses are so much more realistic and sound better when you eq them. I do agree with James that "something" on the rhythms may be a good choice....but that direct sound is pretty cool too.
 
Two ways to look at the rhythms verses the lead for me.
 
My personal preference would be to use a little more presence which would be opposite of what James told you. His way with the 3 k cut is a good one....but to *me* that would make the rhythm guitars too chocolatey and warm. They (to me) need a bit more cut so they don't sound so mid-range congested. I'd boost a little 3k to 5k to make them not sound so honky. The lead to me sounds great because it's not cutting through the mix with biting highs. I like things the opposite. Rhythm guitars that cut through, lead guitars that are warm and chocolatey without any harsh high end. So in your situation...
 
If you added a bit more sizzle to the rhythms, you could just back them down a few dB in level (maybe more because they are definitely too loud in the mix and are over-powering the drums...so get that straightened out first and then see how they sound when the lead comes in) for the solo section and then bring them back when the solo is out etc. But if you decided to have warmer guitars for rhythm guitars, what James told you would work too because you'd be warming them up even more making room for the lead guitars to take over. There's no wrong way here other than what your personal preference would be. But with warmer guitars for rhythms, you won't hear them as much if you pull out anything that would crisp them up like cutting 3k or using a tighter Q so you hear less sizzle. You've gotten all great advice so far and I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on the advice you got from anyone....I'm trying to add to what you've been told, play a little devils advocate and give you a few things that go the opposite way from what was shared. Hope that doesn't offend anyone as that was not my intention.
 
On the drums, before you try to widen them like you were advised, try to work with the drum pans within the program first. Wideners suck on certain instruments and can bring on weird artifacts and can make the drum instruments that are more panned to stereo, sound too separated from the kit. It sounds like your drums are either in mono or everything is panned near center. Try to think of your drums as being in the center of your soundstage but try not to make them exceed a 60 % pan field. Some guys are panning toms and cymbals all over the place and quite frankly it sounds like absolute dog crap to me. Art or no art, disconnection within a mix that is constant ruins it for me.
 
Drums are not supposed to be separated from the mix to where you have toms panning hard left and right...crash cymbals all the way to the sides....so go for a law that says "no drums exceed 60%" and see how you can make your kit sound. Granted, you don't need to live by that exclusively...you need to mix and pan for the song...but realistically speaking, everything else should be on the sides of the drums or in between them. This is a good way to think for your starting point.
 
That said, the drum sounds are pretty good. Just small and centered where they could branch out a bit. Snare and kick need to be centered, but you could effect them with some room inpulses or the room sound within the program so they reach out a little bit more and sort of simulate being the size of 25 left 25 right. You know...have them centered yet allow the room impulses to spread them out just a bit. If you put a spreader/widener on the whole kit, you can mess with other things that shouldn't be there...this is why I'm suggesting this method over a widener.
 
Again, not to sound like I'm picking apart James' advice, but wideners (when just thrown on without someone instructing you how and what to listen for) can totally ruin your material. Wideners work their magic when you have stereo effects going on. Anything stereo, will spread wider while things that are mono will STAY mono and can get sort of phased sounding if you use too much widening. The more widening, the more the kit can get disconnected/separated like I mentioned. So try to fix it inside the program first with pans and some room etc then if need be, try a gentle widener if you really need one. This (to me) is one of the problems with Addictive drums. They sound great, but were recorded so small, you need loads of effects to make them sound big. Too much effects and they lose their impact. They did great with the program, they just didn't record those sounds "for the use of big". Take the room effects and over-heads...and well, you're left with a tinker toy drum kit unfortunately. So though they sound great, you may be stuck with them sounding a bit smaller than other drum programs.
 
The bass sounds good to me. I can hear it and feel it. Pretty nice job here brother...you're starting to get a decent handle on this stuff. So real quick...
 
1. Adjust the rhythm guitars in the mix. Definitely too loud. Find out a good level for them. Once you do...
a. decide if you want them to have a bit more presence. If so, lower them a few dB when the lead guitar comes in so they don't wash over it.
b. decide if you want them warmer and follow James' instructions. If you do this, make sure you listen for the rhythm guitars because you may lose them a bit in the mix once you lower the Q at 3k.
Some people like a subtle amount of rhythm over a lead, others like me like to hear the rhythm at all times while the lead plays. Your choice.
 
2. Check the drum pans in the program or check to see if you may be using a mono bus or something. See if you can work the crash/hats/ride pans a bit wider and see about making the kick and snare sound a bit bigger than they are using the methods we discussed.
 
3. Bass and lead guitar sound fine to me but you'll need to adjust them level wise (maybe even eq wise) once you do the other tweaks. Hope this helps...good luck bro!
 
-Danny

Yeah! What Danny said! 

Hi Clint,
I listened to both mixes, and definitely hear some nice improvement in today's mix. Good job! The one nitpick I would have is the snare drum. It sounds a little better in today's mix, but to me, it still sounds thin and drum machiney. I would suggest trying a few different snare samples if your able to. If not, maybe add a little in the 500Hz area to give it a little more body. This is just my opinion, so feel free to ignore my advice. I do like the song though. You got some nice guitar playing going on in there!

It's more crisp and clear! Good Job!

 Hi Clint. I suppose a critique is a comment when something is wrong or when something seems to seriously need a change. I liked the first mix and the second even better, so I can't seriously critique it. I didn't hear anything majorly wrong.
 
 For a home recording done with EZdrummer I'm very impressed. I am listening today on a pair of Apple headphones. I know they exaggerate the mids and cut the lows, so I won't attempt to niggel that when I am not listening on my studio system. FWIW on these headphones I feel like I'm getting a decent sound from your mix realizing where they fall short.
 
 I gotta hand it to you for continuing to chisel away at something that to my ears is already pretty darned good, right up there with the big boys.
 
 

New mix sounds pretty good to me Clint! Everything is audible and seems to have a nice place in the mix, we got more beater attack and all the other stuff is good too. Hats can pan a bit (20-25 % left or right...your choice depending on if you went with listener perspective of drummer perspective) Now...this is subjective here, but I want to teach you something that may come in handy later.
 
When I listen to this mix, there are no blatant issues. However, the one thing that does sort of make me want to play around a bit is the rhythm guitar sound. I don't know how to explain this other than to talk like a weirdo. LOL!
 
Let me start by saying...this works and you don't have to touch a thing, but I just want you to mess with this and see if you hear the difference and if it's a difference worth changing.
 
The guitars (rhythms only) have a very mid range sound to them. When I hear them, they make the sound of raw raw raw...(not to be cornfused with "they sound too raw and naked") which in Danny language means, a bit excessive on the low mids to mids. I'd like to hear them make more of a "chump chump" or "champ champ" type sound. Notice how saying "raw" is a darker tone than when you say "champ", "chimp" or "chump"? Removing some of the congestive mids will curb the sound of "raw". I know saying those words is probably making you laugh...but if you apply them to guitar tones that are chugging on chords, you'll know exactly where I'm coming from. Each frequency in an eq literally speaks and has a certain element it adds to the mixing language. When you can make them appear to talk or at least "deliver" a sound that can be translated into speech so to speak, understanding frequencies and how to use them becomes much easier.
 
To do this, when you mess with the mix next, try lowering 320 Hz a bit until you hear the congestion in the low mids clear up a bit and get brighter. Then put it back where it was, then raise it super high so you can hear the affect this frequency does to guitars. When you're done, put it back to wherever you had it originally.
 
Next, go to 640 Hz and do the same thing you did with 320 and listen to how it changes the actual syllables in which the guitar lashes out and speaks. After you're done, return 640 to where it was. Next, go to 860 Hz and do the same thing. What I'm teaching you here is how to listen for excessive mids and how just removing a little in these areas can clean instruments like guitars, lead guitars, vocals, piano, strings and other mid range type instruments, right up.
 
You can also boost these frequencies when you need to so that you thicken instruments up a bit as you will notice the tones get a little thicker when you add them in. But when you get into that "raw" type sound....you can usually clean some of the mid range congestion right up and it makes a huge difference.
 
Now, if you like a super mid-rangey sound like this on your guitars, that's fine too. As long as there are no blatant issues (and there aren't, all subjective stuff here) you're right where you need to be. But try this so that you can identify with what I'm saying here as far as mids go. I think your eyes will open real wide when you hear the difference these 3 frequencies make in dirty guitar tones. Well done brother. :)
 
-Danny

I've taken everyone's advice and did a few more final tweaks. I will leave all three of these mixes up on Soundcloud for a few days for anyone who might be interested and then I will delete them and kill the thread. Thanks for the help...these are the changes I made today.
 
1. Rhythm guitar bus - I cut the mids at 320hz by 0.89 and boosted at 860hz by 0.5.
2. I added more room reverb to the drums.
3. Drum bus- I made a narrow cut at 62hz to hopefully add a little slap to the kick. I made a narrow boost at 188hz to give the snare a little more thump.
 
https://soundcloud.com/clintmartin/a-prelude-to-september-mix
 

Honestly? I only listened to the third mix and I think it sounds real good!!!