Helpful ReplyHow Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar?

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BJN
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2014/10/08 08:47:44 (permalink)
I nearly never record a song I already have written. I don't know what it is but it is doing something new that interest me. Those songs are hammered out on my acoustic usually and I sometime perform them.
 
I love finding magic! Those accidental combinations that just spark something to life.
It is almost always starts with a bass line I am working on but not always, it could be keyboard alot of the time guitar.
I often practice scales in different keys and ideas come aplenty. It is interesting how different keys lend themselves to a different expression. I'll even play with a capo to get a new tonality or creative angle. 
That idea of playing a different instrument than you usually do also can inspire.
 
Sonar starts as a multitrack recorder for me. 
I load up AD and get a drum loop that I like.
 
I often harmonize vocally to a guitar progression and that way I know it works as a progression.
I'll get a basic arrangement happening in the key I am favoring at the time.
 
I'll get on bass and lay over it. Often the magic happens here but it could spark anywhere.
If I drop it there then no spark and start afresh.
 
If I am nutting out parts for the new arrangement then I am inspired and honing continues.,
Sometimes that inspiration takes me into mixing it. And ashamedly have mixed some tunes that were incomplete vocally.
It is rare I get a vocal done due to lack of interest in lyrics and something to sing about and confidence. I do need to remedy 
 
The progression often becomes an instrumental if I have worked on it to the point of mix/automation it will have an okay melody or hook that keeps me going at it.
 
I am reading how others are using sonar for songwriting and I am sure some ideas can be put to use to help my own productivity.
 
Already the idea that the song starts with the lyrics is correct. I have found when writing with another the lyric content determines the music and a much more melodic production can be  produced.
 
post edited by BJN - 2014/10/08 09:01:42

-------------------------------------------------------
Magic: when you feel inspired to create which in turn inspires more creation.
 
And the corollary: if magic happens inspiration might flog it to death with numerous retakes.
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#31
SvenArne
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2014/10/09 11:23:42 (permalink)
Common endpoint when recording without a real song plan before hand:
- Have recorded a nice drum part
- Have laid down a nice complex chord progression on electric guitar
= Can't go anywhere!
 
Project ends up gathering dust on my HDD for years. Maybe it's a bridge part for a song I haven't written yet?





#32
Wookiee
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2014/10/09 11:33:09 (permalink)
All depends, if I am writing for myself of with someone else.
 
For myself I sit at the keyboard, sometimes with something in mind, and just see what falls out of the furry paws.
 
When I am writing with someone else I take my lead from them either from their lyrics or the melody they sing and again see what drops out of the furry paws.  Usually this method starts with an acoustic guitar to get a basic chord progression and general rhythm/feel.

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#33
stevec
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2014/10/09 14:37:12 (permalink)
More often than not?   Slowly.
 


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#34
DonF
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/28 11:46:29 (permalink)
Great thread! Interesting to see unique approaches to the same goal.
#35
joden
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/28 12:13:31 (permalink)
I start and then always get hung up on drums - which then kills the entire thing
#36
soens
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/28 16:19:37 (permalink)
I don't! I may compose them in Sonar. I may record them in Sonar. But never have I ever written them in Sonar.
 
I usually use Note pad or a real note pad.
#37
McMoore11
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/29 09:25:51 (permalink)
My approach begins with a hook. It is usually a phrase. That phrase will have a rhythm to it that will dictate where it's placement in the song should be.
Longer phrases lend themselves to the last line of the A verses in an AABA format. Shorter phrases work really well in the first line in B choruses of ABABCB.
The rhythm of the hook will also point the way to the feel and tempo of the song as do the subject of the hook.
Before I even power up Sonar, I grab a piece of paper and my Martin D28 and figure what kind of song I want to come up with. I work with a lot of co-writers
in Nashville and we will write with specific pitches in mind. Once I have the skeletal parts of the song feeling good I'll record myself singing into my iPhone, type up my
lyric and subject matter ideas and send them to co-writers who add to the song foundation. Once we agree on the feel, song structure and tempo, I'll open a new session in Sonar.

Now comes the recording of the work tape.

I begin by setting the tempo and recording a reference track with me singing with my guitar to track one and place markers.
Becoming more familiar with the song allows me to program a scratch drum track either using a simple loop or sequencing a bare bones drum track using either Session Drummer or
Addictive Drums.
I'll then lay down a bass track direct by going into a Radial JDI into a Black Lion B173 into a Ashly SC50 into a Motu 896mk3 into Sonar.
After that I'll further tweak the drum/loop tracks to create a better dynamic flow.
Acoustic guitars come next. Often I'll record a D28 with an LR Baggs into a Fishman Aura into the B173 for panning hard left.
Then a different guitar, usually a Martin 0018 in open G or Nashville C drunk tuning will be recorded with a Shure P81 into the B173 and Ashly and panned hard right or vice versa.
Next is the work tape vocal recorded with a Shure KSM32 into the B173 and Ashly and tuned up in the stand alone Melodyne.
I'll export that session with an SSL bus compressor and Waves L2 on the master fader to bring the level up and create an mp3 to send to my co-writers.
I save that session (and all sessions) to a bundle and redundantly save to a internal solid state drive, an external HD and Dropbox.
Feedback is gathered, tweaks are made, publisher input, more tweaks and then the demo phase begins and comes down to a matter of putting the right
instruments in the right places to support the song and the vocals.

As I demo, 99% of the time I will create the backing tracks and hire a Nashville vocalist to sing the demo with harmonies with me producing via Skype from my studio.
 
My 'finished' demos are usually:
Hired male or female vocalist
Live drums to replace or play with my programming
My acoustic guitars and bass
Hired session guitar and keys if needed.
 
I import those files into my Sonar session and mix using Waves, ProChannel stuff, SoundToys, Slate plugs and cool freeware I picked up along the way, master and deliver.
 
For me Sonar is both a drawing pad and a program to deliver mastered content.

It takes one to know one, and vice versa.
 
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#38
patm300e
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/31 07:40:39 (permalink)
mudgel
Start with acoustic guitar which gives me basic rhythm, tempo and dynamics.
Hum along to get the basic melody and the tonal structure of the song.

 
This is where I start as well.  I am not a great guitar player, but can at least get it to the point where it is useful to move the song along.
 
I typically do the Bass Guitar after the first rhythm and then maybe a scratch lead vocal.
 
Next comes the drums...Since I am a drummer and that is my main instrument, I have never used loops preferring the live human feel.  Although I have to admit the computer is getting closer to live drums all the time.
 
If I feel it is worth it, I will get a better guitar player than me to laydown some tracks based on the original.
Then I will track additional guitars (Both Rhythm & Lead).
 
I will use my MIDI guitar to lay down any keys/strings, etc.


Once I have a fairly nice mix, I will lay down permanent lead vocals followed by backing vocals.
 
I don't write a lot like some of you, but I have written some.  Wish I had more time to devote to this.
 
Graham Cochrane over at RecordingRevolution.com did a Song a month challenge back in 2011.
[link=http://therecordingrevolution.com/category/one-song-one-month-challenge/]http://therecordingrevolu...g-one-month-challenge/[/link]
While it is no longer active you can look at this for inspiration.
 
 
 

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#39
panup
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/31 08:25:02 (permalink)
It all begins from a feeling that I could write something new. I grab my bass, guitar or play with Hammond or piano to improvise for a while. Usually some melody starts to get more attention in my head and it will become the seed of the new song.
 
Now things are evolving fast. I make the chord progression in minutes and make a quick demo in SONAR. First track may is usually bass or rhythm guitar. I don’t need to make any drum track – I’m used to play over the ¼ metronome.
 
After making a rough structure of the song I play electric demo drums - usually some real drumkit setu from Native Instruments Ultimate library -  and pay more attention to the groove. Now I play all instruments again 1-3 times. Each time I learn more about the song and finally I know exactly what all instruments are doing (and WHY). Mixing process has already started – it’s integral part of the arrangement and sound choices.
 
It’s time for the vocals. Demo vocals are recorded quickly but refining continues all the time to the last minute before mixing.
 
Now the professional drummer comes to studio. I give him the song structure, play the demo for a couple of times and he makes his own markings. Drums are recorded in 1-5 takes and in two hours I have got superb drum track (no editing required), including sound check and rough drum mix. I have learned that it is cheaper and faster to hire a seasoned professional than trying to make drums on my own.
 
Drums are ready. Next I play bass and guitar again and make them groove with drums. Vocals, keyboards, synth programming, rough mixing, backing vocals etc. follow in random order.
 
Mixing phase: sometimes I tend to use “advanced mixing techniques” which means that I could re-record any instrument track or even lead vocals if I have a feeling that song does not feel right. “Song is ready when it is ready”. Normally, however, mixing is just mixing.
 
Finally it’s time to send song for the mastering engineer. It’s good to have a deadline; otherwise the mix would not become ready until year 2080…
 
post edited by panup - 2016/10/31 13:27:29
#40
promidi
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/31 09:34:05 (permalink)
panup
........ It’s good to have a deadline; otherwise the mix would not become ready until year 2080…
 


Well, at least if you have a lifetime licence for Sonar, it won't run out if it isn't  :)
 

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#41
Gary McCoy
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/31 12:37:39 (permalink)
My process has not changed for years, and has worked out well for me.
 
The process begins with acoustic guitar.  I begin to flesh out ideas.
 
As soon as I have decided on a basic chord pattern, I create a song in Band-In-A-Box.  I enter the chords and choose a style that comes close to what I am hearing in my head.  I stay with acoustic guitar and BIAB, making chord changes and adjustments until I have the song essentially complete.
 
If I decide that the song is worthy of making a demo, I move the BIAB files to Sonar.  
 
I record a guide vocal track.
 
Then I start replacing the BIAB tracks with my own recording.  Sometimes, but seldom, a BIAB track actually makes it to the final mix (the BIAB Realband acoustic guitar tracks are often quite nice).
 
I replace the guide vocal track with the keeper vocal track, then add additional vocals (harmony, back-up).
 
Re-do and/or tweak as necessary.
 
One advantage of using the BIAB tracks is that it allows me to record my own tracks along with "the band."  For example, if I am recording a guitar track, I am playing along with a full-band arrangement of the song, and not just a click track or a drum loop.  I find this process to be quite satisfying.
 
Another advantage is that listening to and singing along with the BIAB tracks allows me to make smart tempo decisions early in the process.
 
#42
Vilovilo
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/31 18:21:07 (permalink)
Hi,
I like this thread,full of ideas and insights.
It is allways surprising when a song is " finished" to wonder where it came from,I often have the feeling that it has allways been here but ,who knows..
Anyway as far as I work most part of the time by and on my own and I don't properly make a living with my songwriting ,my way to create has no time restrictions.
It starts from an idea,whether it is a riff on a guitar ,or a midi piano or humming a melody while waiting my car to be fixed or anything else.
Then I write the song,as far as I am french ,lyrics are important because they do not sound the same way as in english and there is a kind of balance to find between meaning and sound.
Once the song is built I learn it in a way that I am able to sing it along with the guitar from start to end.
In this process I don't go close to the computer except to get a rest and create kind of video games tracks..
At this point I can lay down a guitar-voice track ( two tracks with an sm58 as if it was a live performance)
Then I can extract the tempo find a basic drumbeat and then learn the bassline .
Once this is done I moove forward to other parts and spend quite a long time editing the drum part in the piano roll view.
Then come my attempts to make a decent mix and use plug-in to make it listenable on some different systems.
At this time ,normally,my mind is set on another song.
This is my way to process,but after reading all theese interesting posts,I thinkI can let myself try other options.
All the best.
Olivier
#43
eph221
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/31 18:59:27 (permalink)
SvenArne
Anything I ever came up with that didn't start with a sung melody always turned out stupid. Sometimes amusingly so, though...



 
I'm a melody person as well.
#44
declan
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/31 20:08:34 (permalink)
mudgel
Start with acoustic guitar which gives me basic rhythm, tempo and dynamics.
Hum along to get the basic melody and the tonal structure of the song.
All this is recorded of course if not in Sonar then at least to my Zoom H4.
If not yet in Sonar, now's the time. Doing all this in Sonar let's me cut and paste song sections which at different stages of development could be anywhere on the time line.
I continue to complete the arrangement of verse intros, chorus etc with acoustic guitar and additionally record any lyric phrases that happen along the way.

I collect all the hooks both musical and lyrical that are recorded then arrange them appropriately till the song and lyric content is defined.
Then I clean up the structure which gives me all my song parts, intro, verse, chorus breaks etc. Once I have that locked in I begin recording the instruments I want.

The acoustic guitar rhythm will suggest which midi loop I use as drum accompaniment through Sup Drummer rather than the metronome .

I start fleshing out the drums for bridges, fills, buildups etc and getting the kick and bass line in the right place along with general dynamics.
I'll replace the acoustic guitar now if it's not staying and make decisions about the instrumentation at this point. Once all the parts have been recorded, it's time for polishing the arrangement as it will affect any mixing.
Only once I have the arrangement down pat will I start mixing.



Exactly me.  I still struggle with drums, but many times that process makes the song better.  After all these years I still find it hard to "groove" with myself, which was always easier with a band  (if you were recording everything to cassette (sigh)), but every musician actually feels something different with every piece of every song and I miss that. 
#45
Vastman
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/10/31 20:26:09 (permalink)
 
This is such an AWESOME question, Craig... and the diversity of answers is amazing...  A man of many words said a lot in just a few:
 
bapu
For me it all starts with words.
 
Don't need SONAR for that.


 
I agree! Often I start outside of the studio/DAW land... a lot of what I do stems from focusing on an issue... sometimes a podcast dealing with a particular climate situation or solar/technology thing, a twitter link or study or ... I'll be driving and listening to some sciency thing and finally pull off the road, wip out Evernote, and start writing, REAL TIME, while listening.  Hook lines, many are there in what people say... and I've been swept away into a writing frinzy more times than I can count...listening to an amazing human discussing something that I feel is crucial to understand.
 
I have 20 or so themes active at any time.  Actually, this number continues to grow... As a vocalist I'll then reflect on a subject matter and how I emotionally react to an issue and bring up some rhythmic/arp/multi package(s) that  seem to fit the picture I'm feeling, and then just vamp... often with words on a separate monitor, Often with a drum underpinning that I just select from the endless pile I have, always with headphones, mic on and... away I go.  I may do this with a variety of starting points, and may vamp on several possibilities before I start to flush things out for a word package... Of course, I sometimes just fire up a new instrument or "package", like the Guru's new Kreaturesque package... and just start there, with absolutely NO idea of what I'm gonna do... That is just as fun and the spontaneous combustion which results is often a reward in itself... When Airwave and Skippy came out with their O2 masterpiece I spent ALL NIGHT writing... totally extemporaneousa but powerful songs, singing/playing real time, not knowing where it would go next, moved by the multi itself... a dozen songs, several very good, in an all night "holy SHEEEET" session... I love a number of those moments, like "are we a virus" which TOTALLY flowed from the power of others gifted into my hands and daw...
 
My mood or state of mind generally moves me in a direction... whether emo, country, new age, rock, orchestral, angry screaching or plantively calling out or whatever... I'm never in a box...well, I AM in the box of saying something that needs sayingt...  Indeed, sometimes I'll just fire up a vst...an OT guitar, an Albion patch, or guru Omnisphere multi... and let the muse take hold.  Often with NO predetermined melody... even though I feel melody and hooks are key to a song that communicates.
 
I go thru phases... on my last camping trip, armed with just my acoustic guitar and a smart phone, I vamped dozens of ideas I would NEVER have come to in my studio setting...words, riffs, rhythmic foundations... I was like, "WTF!!! where'd this come from???" Being able to live capture these days is HUGE.... I remember the day when I had to concoct my own system to remember an idea, before the digital age.  We are SOOOOOO lucky at this moment in time to have the tools we have.
 
Like my gardens, I feel songwriting is an artistic adventure and I try to avoid rules for what first flows.  Sure, after I come up with something that excites or brings tears to my spirit, I'll do the tear down, edits, and redos/harmonies/overlays... the boring but necessary piano roll tweaks...
 
But mostly, it's art... and it is soooo amazing to be able to wield someone like Airwave's art as a foundation for my own unique feelings and perspectives...It's like being IN a band without dealing with the challenges of BEING in A BAND!  Every patch library is a creation lovingly put together by another human... and THAT sound, which I WOULD NEVER find on my own, rocks me into directions I NEVER anticipated...
 
I own ALL the costly tools but rarely use them, due to lack of time and general overload. I don't redo as often as I should.  Indeed, part of why I'm relocating up north is to have way more time to devote to honing my often crude emotional appeals... Excited to see where THAT leads.

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#46
Muziekschuur at home
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/11/01 07:21:11 (permalink)
I start with a click track. Then I play chords on a guitar. Then I write lyrics on a piece of paper.
Then I play over the clicktrack and record bass, guitar and vocals. After that I turn to keys.
 
I would like to integrate writing lyrics in Sonar. But I haven't figured out how to line up music and words.

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#47
Mwah
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/11/01 07:43:24 (permalink)
Another BIAB user here.
 
Usually I work out the chord sequence (and lyrics) with a guitar, then the structure of the song in BIAB (if the song sounds good there, it might sound decent elsewhere, too ). Then I export the song to midi and import it to Sonar.
 
I usually end up using the BIAB drum track and a one or two other tracks, assigned to completely different (sampled) instruments the BIAB style makers intended (that’s why I hate all the RealTracks). After I have groove quantized, edited, transposed, cut and pasted to my hearts content and probably added a couple of (looped) African/Middle Eastern percussion tracks, I bounce the midi/sampler/synth tracks to audio tracks. (The drum track gets broken apart as several audio tracks: snare, toms, cymbals, kick drum and kick drum doubled with a synth kick drum sound for extra oomph.) Some of the other (originally midi) tracks serve mainly as guides, some are supposed to survive until the mix.

Then I add a couple of guitars, bass and vocal tracks, not necessarily in that order. Then mix. Then take a break and later on listen to what I have with my iPod and/or with the home stereo. Re-record and re-mix if necessary (as it usually is). Go back to the beginning a few times and start the song anew with a different tempo, different rhythm, different instrumentation, whatever...

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#48
tagruvto
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/11/01 07:51:28 (permalink)
MondoArt
This isn't related directly to using Sonar, but I co-host a weekly streaming radio program about songwriting, and we talk quite a bit about process, how songs begin, ideas, etc.  We have a songwriter guest every week.  Check us out:
www.songtalk.ca
 


Just checked out your Blog.  Very Cool!

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#49
rscain
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/11/01 10:10:52 (permalink)
 
I have a project template with AD2, two guitar tracks, a bass track, two for keys, and three for vocals. This is my basic working setup.
Inspiration can come from anywhere; noodling on guitar, hearing something on the TV or radio, something I read, or even a random thing I think or someone might say.
If it's an idea from playing guitar (my main instrument), I might immediately record the basics of it just so I don't lose it. Then I find a suitable basic beat in AD2 and layout enough of it to get me started (usually about 100 measures). I work on the chords and arrangement, including choruses and bridges as applicable, over this basic beat.
When I have the arrangement I record a scratch rhythm guitar track. This might be a keeper or might not even be included in the finished song. Then I do the bass track. When I track these parts I almost never comp, I'd rather do an entire track in one complete take. To me this lends more of an "organic" feel to it, or at least as much of that feel as you can get when you're doing most of the tracks yourself with computerized drums. If it's a particularly difficult part, especially on bass, then I will comp it.
Simple keyboard parts I do myself, but anything more than just block chords is way beyond my skill set. If I can make it work I'll use EZ Keys, it's an amazing program with enough midi loops to cover just about any basic (and some not-so-basic) songs. Luckily I have a couple of friends who are great keyboardists that are willing to help me out if EZ Keys won't work. I send them a basic mix of the arrangement and they record their parts into a midi file which they send back to me to use in the final mix. That way I can use whatever instrument I have that will work in the song.
If I haven't written the lyrics by now I'll record a scratch vocal track with random words or nonsense syllables, sometimes not even melodically, just searching for the right cadence to work with the music.
After the vocals go down then I'll do the ear candy; BG vox, guitar solos, percussion, etc.
Then I get to the REAL fun, mixing it all down and gluing it together. I think I actually enjoy that part of it the most, the pressure to try to create something worthwhile is mostly gone, it's just a matter of getting it to sound as good as possible.
That's the usual basic process, but of course there are times when it's completely different.
Sorry for the long post, I get a bit carried away.....
 

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#50
AndyB01
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/11/01 11:16:48 (permalink)
For me it's all about the inspiration and the lyrics and that's inevitably where I start; unless it's an instrumental of course.

My songs are very personal and they have to tell a story with characters I can visualise or relate to, a bit like writing a book I guess but much shorter. I will agonise over a single word and I hate lame rhyming or fillers, every word has to fight for its place.

Once I have a lyric then I'll pick up my acoustic and start playing with ideas, typically recording to my smartphone. Or I'll fire up the digital piano and get some chord progressions I like that work, I am no great shakes on piano but I can use it enough to compose a basic idea. If I decide on piano I have been experimenting with EzKeys and I really like it but I need to be more experimental in modifying the default midi clips.

I tend to define an accompaniment then work out the tempo and melody from there. Finally I add drums and other instruments.

My big weakness is my production skills and I am probably only functionally competent in around 30% of what Sonar can do so I have a lot of learning still to do but you can only get better with practice, right? 😂
post edited by AndyB01 - 2016/11/01 14:09:41

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#51
Slugbaby
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Re: How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar? 2016/11/01 12:52:36 (permalink)
Here's an example of a song I recently wrote.
Noodling away on a guitar while watching TV, I came up with cool lick.  After playing it a few times, I built a basic chord progression around it and sang a verse (whatever words came to mind).  Opened Sonar, and recorded my playing the chord progression, lick, and sang the verse.
Then I threw together a simple drum beat that felt close, and added a simple bass line.  Then I wrote a chorus, 2nd and 3rd verse, and recorded them.  That became the basic "so I don't forget" recording.
Then I got off the PC and went back to the guitar to re-arrange the song, add a middle-8 section, whatever felt right as a performance.  Then I went back into the Sonar project and updated it with whatever else came out.  Export a copy so I can listen to it on my phone as I do other non-musical things.
At this point, it was a fairly run-of-the-mill blues song.
A week or so later, I was listening and imagined another guitar line working as a counter-melody.  Since I felt the song wanted some brass, I programmed a 2-trumpet/1-trombone section.  Then this re-inspired the other instruments and I rewrote the bassline and drums to match how the feel changed.  Somehow this led my blues song into a weird Klezmer field.
I didn't want it to be a Klezmer song, so I replayed the brass on a guitar.  Then it leaned a little more back towards blues-rock.  I exported an updated version of the song.
A week or so later, I was working on something in the song and isolated one of the guitars.  Suddenly i thought "i wonder how this would work as reggae?"  A quick drag/drop of a reggae drum pattern, a "wing-it" bassline, and there was another life of this song.
 
Now I'm leaning back towards the blues-rock version.  But it will likely involve a little reggae/klezmer by the time I finally complete a mix I'm proud of.
 
Most of my songs evolve like this.  There usually ends up being 3 or 4 versions of each.  Occasionally I'll have the songs transform between genres gradually, but sometimes they just live in different worlds.
 
I used to be a fan of Hawksley Workman, and what impressed me most was that you rarely saw him play the same set twice.  if he was in a hard-rock mood, you got a hard-rock show.  If he was feeling ballady, you'd get a softer, more sedate concert.  And his songwriting and arranging were good enough that the songs worked in whatever genre he chose. 
 

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