How Do *You* Write Songs in Sonar?

I ask because I'm now going from start to finish on songs in less than a week of part-time activity...have a song pretty much done tonight (Saturday) I just started from nothing on Thursday night. I used to take forever to write and finish songs.
 
If you saw my "Songwriting on the Fast Track" seminar at GearFest 2014, you know my general approach but I thought it would be fun for all of us to compare notes on the songwriting process. Since I started the thread, I might as well kick it off.
 
1. First, you gotta grab the inspiration. I was doing a demo for a 12-string Dim Pro patch when I came up with a riff I liked. When the muse comes knocking, never tell her "I'm busy." She HATES that!! As this was a keyboard part, I could start right off in MIDI and not worry about tempo or key until later.
2. Once I have some chords it's time for drums. I realize this will be heresy in the land of Session Drummer and Addictive Drums, but I've never found anything better or more inspirational than the Discrete Drums loop libraries. Because the files are Acidized, I have some wiggle room for tempo.
3. I work non-linearly. For example, I often get the idea for the chorus first...but not always. I'll just stake a claim somewhere on the timeline and work on the different sections. Once I have sections blocked out, I group the clips and play around with the arrangement.
4. Once the arrangement is down, even if the parts are placeholders, I do the vocals. At this point there's likely no bass or leads, just chords and drums. I've learned not to become attached to vocals or lyrics, because what matters is the melody line. I came up with a set of lyrics on Thursday...on Friday I decided I didn't like the topic, but the music itself suggested some lyrics. This morning I decided I liked the lyrics, but the intro sucked so I rewrote that. Lyrics are like any kind of writing, they're meant to be edited. Vocals are IMHO the most important part of the song and all the subsequent parts are designed to support the vocal, so the vocal has to be there. I'll even do pitch correction if needed in parts, and take them pretty far. Sometimes these end up being keepers.
5. Now come the overdub, editing, and replacement parts for the placeholders. At this point the song has a soul and a direction so this is where the song comes to life...for me, the magic happens when the guitars start to go on. Then comes some ear candy, percussion, etc. At this point I'll add some plug-ins too, but I have a new type of plug-in concept I'm experimenting with and it's basically replaced about 70% of the plug-ins I used to use (except for the ProChannel). When I've got this nailed down you'll know about it, but even now it saves me a huge amount of time.
6. Next is mixing and mastering. I do a reference mix for levels as I go along so at this point it's mostly about doing automation changes to the static levels, clip gain if needed, etc.
7. I post the mix as an unlisted video on YouTube, and post the URL in my Sound, Studio, and Stage forum on Harmony Central. There are a bunch of people there who come up with great suggestions, so I call them the "SSS Production Squad." They usually come up with some great tweaks, so I do those, then do one final mix (thank you, automation).
 
I'd say the main thing I've learned with this approach is to keep each stage segmented. If I'm working on vocals, I don't think about mixing or overdubs. I don't do editing until the track is done, and the mixing that happens during the songwriting process is just setting static levels. The real mixing happens after the tracks are down, and a lot of it involves deleting anything non-essential from the song.
 
I've also learned not to be self-critical - the most important part is to get parts down. If they suck they can be replaced later, but you want to keep the momentum going when you're writing. Don't obsess, create...obsessing is for when you do the mixing and mastering. 
 
Anyway, this is what works for me BUT everyone has a different style and workflow. I'm interested in hearing what works for you because I'm always looking for better ways to streamline the songwriting process
 
 
 
 

i usually have an idea in my head wat im aiming for, and start to try and program the sounds that are in my head i.e kicks,main hooks, basslines and so on, and start just laying **** down, once i have a flow with a bit of energy, it just all starts to come together, but i do get stuck in that loop lol

+1, I habitually start with a sung melody which will always give a rough tempo and key. These can be adjusted as the process progresses, but I tend to focus on lyrical content and judicious use of sound bites.

I keep my Tascam Dr 40 handy ( That's why they call them handy recorders right! ;) 
So 90% of my songs start life as a banging on guitar and moaning and groaning the melody for the lyrics. Sometimes there is a guitar hook that drives it sometimes a lyrical idea. I'll store a bunch of these and then one day I'll listen to them and pick one that was the the best of the lot. 
 
First step is to determine a drum style / tempo and I will dust of my Roland 505 as it is always patched to my mixer. ( old habit)
or use the metronome when I'm not sure where I'm going yet.
So down goes a solid acoustic or electric rhythm track that finalizes the arrangement. 
I'm good at quick decisions about arranging after learning a 1000 cover tunes. :)
The vocals might still be non lyrical melody idea. ( la la la )
Next the kick via Keyboard controller.
Next the Bass locked to the kick. I'm a real bass player and often the bass line is one of the better parts of my songs. 
Next the rest of drums via Yamaha DTX 400- editing a must!
Now I have to write the lyrics.
If not, the song will die and be lost in the ozone only to be discovered 3 years later.
Sing the song
Now the fun parts like lead solos and some keyboard parts. 
Done
 
I have often finished songs in a solid 6 hour session. If I don't finish fast then they are left hanging. 
 
 And great idea for a thread Greg. I hope most of the regulars chime in. It's fabulously cool to see that there will be no 2 people working with Sonar as a songwriting tool the same way. Some of us will be traditional starting with a real instrument, the guitar and piano being the weapon of choice. We seem to then record in almost the traditional way with the exception we can do the whole thing ourselves now.  Then there will probably be the majority using the plethora of new creative approaches to making music with all these new fangled gadgets I'll never understand.   

For me, drums are it. It is where I get inspiration from to create the rest. Drums followed by basslines then chords then lyrics then melody.
 
BUT...I am HOPELESS at drum programming (even with all the drum patterns with SD and AD) so I don't really write that much, as it takes forever just to decide on a drum pattern/s with the result that I get frustrated and end up giving up and doing the gardening!. I would love to write more.

I create a "Dummy" midi track that triggers a piano sound outside of Sonar (my piano midi controller)  .  I view this track in Staff View.  I will start by improvising a melody on the dummy track. In piano view I mess with melody choices and in Staff View I add chords and sometimes lyrics.  When the song is ready I start orchestrating using the dummy track staff view as a guide.   

Eesh I wish I had a regular process!
 
I keep a ton of sketch projects, just a part and some accompaniment of some kind. So I trawl through those regularly to see what the heck I was thinking.
 
I think I often start with a bass or synth bassline. Often times this becomes a hook and I record a second, actual, bassline. Sometimes I build something up from a production trick, like a killer sample or a weird drum part.
 
Inevitably I've got a part and some drums (which I usually disassemble and rebuild later). Next is figuring out if I've got a chorus or a verse happening, and then I write the other part. Usually adding another melody line of some sort along the way.
 
After that it's a quick drag-copy to create a basic structure. There is usually where I determine if the track is crap or not. Almost always there's a bridge or solo section to be written. This is where I remember the vocals!
 
Sometimes I write a vocal melody there, other times I build the rest of the track up and save those for last (more on that)
 
If I'm feeling it, I'll start adding ear-candy production stuff at this point, choosing final patches, re-doing the drums. If parts are critical to the song (like tempo delays or whatnot) I'll add them. 
 
Lately I've been doing a "rough mix" before vox, just to get it in place. I've gotten pretty good and carving out vocal space so I'll try and get a mix pretty far along.
 
Then, if i haven't already written a vocal line, I'll bring in my writing partner and we "go fishing" for vocal hooks. I'll usually do a verse or two lines of a chorus to have some words to mush around with that give a gist of where I think the song is going. More often than not these remain but we're both open to chucking them if something better comes up. 
 
I do some editing of the hooks to mate parts together and then we fill in any gaps until we've got our melody. Then one of us (I let her take first crack usually) goes and does a draft of lyrics, which we track in and tinker with.
 
Then I play with the mix some more and stockpile the track until we've got about twelve or so and then do final vocal tracking for a record! Though we're moving more towards working track by track. My writing is the slowest part of the process so I try and build up a supply of songs to work with before we get rolling.
 
Anyhow, final mix comes after vox, and I'm getting much faster at busting those out. Working about three hours a night it takes me three days to do a song. We use a lot of electronics and I like to take it around and listen on various systems so it takes a couple of days to really get a sense of balance.

I still struggle with it. I end up spending so much time trying to figure out how to get around, that I lose the inspiration.

I have a template that has J-Bass (Kontakt), EZDrummer (Classic Kit), Ivory II (Steinway), RealGuitar, and SI-Elec Piano (for melody and lyrics).

I mainly write instrumental music so I don't focus on lyrics unless I am recording a song for someone else. I have several different approaches. Sometimes I work with open tunings and a lot of times these songs don't have structures like verses and chorus unless I am putting together a song for someone. I don't play keyboards so I don't use midi that much to write music.
 
If I have a Solo guitar piece, I write it outside of Sonar and I already know all the parts before I record the song. I got to spend a lot of time to become proficient in playing the piece. A lot of times I will start all over again if I make a mistake. The reason why I do this with solo guitar pieces is because if I punch in it tends to ruin the mood for me. I find I get better recordings just by starting over.
 
The key for me is to not become frustrated and to clear my mind of everything else around me. Eventually I get a recording I like. After that I record the song again from start to finish on other tracks. I do this until I get about 4 versions of the same song.
 
When I record an acoustic solo piece I typically use two tracks with two microphones. When I am done recording the song I put it away for at least 2 weeks. After some time has passed I will listen to all the different takes for that song and then I decide which one is best. From that point I mix it. This is really easy to do if you only have two tracks.
 
If I have song ideas that require different acoustic parts and overdubs, I will typically work out everything with my JamMan looper. Right now I am working with ideas I got when I re-tuned the guitar to E-A-D-E-A-E. This tuning gave me 5 song ideas. All of the parts are worked out on the My JamMan looper. Once I plan out how each part is arranged and what the overdubs will be then I go to Sonar and record the songs.
 
If I am recording a full song with bass, drums, and electric guitar then I typically start with the drums. I already know the arrangement before I start. I will find a basic midi drum beat in addictive drums or session drummer and figure out the tempo I want the song to be. From there I will add that one midi pattern all the way to the end of the song or beyond.
 
From that point I record the rhythm guitar parts. I never use the metronome when recording these parts because I have a basic drum beat. For some reason I find that I get better recordings this way. I am more personally inspired. Once I get done with the rhythm tracks I will check them with the metronome and turn the drums off. I listen for any strumming patterns that are off beat.
 
If everything is ok then I switch off the metronome and turn the drums back on. Then I record the bass track. Typically I will write the bass parts using Sonar. I also write any guitar solo parts using Sonar. In fact once the basic drums and the rhythm parts are done the rest of the song is created and written using Sonar.
 
At some point during the recording I will replace the basic midi beat I used in addictive drums or session drummer. I will go through the song and choose midi beats for each measure or groups of measures. Once they are arranged and all the midi drum files are chosen, I will go in and edit some of the midi files in the drum parts to get rid of any feeling of repetition.
 
 

I use the staff view. It's not easy though for it's shortcomings and how hard it is for me to look at a white screen. Other than that, I have no set way to write because every song is different and where to begin is always changing.
 
The only thing I've been doing lately is writing lochrian. It seems nobody does so I am. It's dark and can be disturbing and since I'm a political junkie, what better way to describe the world as I see it.

Guitar is my main instrument and something I'm proficient at (know my way all over the fretboard in all keys and all chords and scales) but I'm more drawn toward synth based music of late (I just love fiddling with synths). But since I'm useless as a keyboard player and good at the guitar, I get most of my melodic/harmonic ideas on the guitar first. I'm a lot more likely to experiment with sophisticated harmonies and odd rhythms if I have a guitar in my hand.

Because of this, Melodyne Editor (polyphonic) has been a boon. I'll record an idea on guitar and then convert it to MIDI.

This is where the fun starts. Because Melodyne rarely does an accurate job of converting my oftentimes kooky fingerstyle harmonies accurately, I have a lot of adjusting and cleaning up to do in the piano roll. Either I'll set about trying to recreate exactly what I was playing on guitar, or I'll just use the MIDI I have as raw material which I'll then start chipping away at and moving around until I end up with something completely different. Sometimes I'm literally moving notes up and down and left and right until they sound pleasing and/or interesting. Oftentimes I'll end up with something that is very far removed from what I played on guitar, but distantly related. I love working in the piano roll like this. You can really "sculpt" something you would never have come up with with your fingers on the keys (and often it would be unplayable anyway).

Then the part I love - playing with sounds. There's nothing better than having a great MIDI part that you're pleased with, and playing it through hundreds of presets. You'll go through them for ages thinking "nope...nope...nope..." and then bang! A preset comes along which was MADE for the part. Usually the sound of this preset will completely influence where the track is headed after that, and it is virtually never how I first imagined it. And the preset will usually get tweaked and mangled over the course of time. Sometimes I'll have trouble making it fit with something else and so I'll go for a completely new sound, and the track goes off on a whole new tangent.

Of course the trouble with this is that it's sometimes hard to get projects finished. I have a couple that I've been working on for over 2 years that have been reinvented so many times I have no idea how they started. It's a good job this is just a hobby for me at this point because otherwise I'd be broke....

Anyway I can't add much else in terms of arranging and mixing that everyone else hasn't already said - just thought I'd give my $0.02 about how I put down musical ideas and develop them.

Many great ideas have already been shared..
 
Before starting - I have gotten in the habit of putting equipment back in its place, hooked up and laid out.  This is especially important during the summer when I am out performing a lot.
 
Starting with an idea - could come from daily practice, in performance, sound check, during a songwriting session or the like..  I always have an idea for a name now.  That helps me to focus on completing XXXXXXXX.  I put up a chalkboard in my little room, and on it - I put the song, who I would like to invite to help if I get a sense of what will fit, then a tracking done date, mixing done date, and a to master date.   I find if I can see it as I walk in, it prompts me to get going. The name also reminds me of the emotion or purpose of the song.
 
1 - Start with a template.  4 audio channels and (used to be session drummer) an AD set of channels.  3 tracks are setup as guitar inputs - one for acoustic, two for electric. 1 track is setup for bass.  The effects are turned off - just putting them in there because 6 times out of 10, I am going to use them. I also have the click track setup to run in the template. As I am starting a new track, I name it, assign it a color, assign it to submixes - and put a picture on the track. As I am adding tracks, I tend to move them physically into groups that make sense to me - drag and drop..  The whole part of this in my little write up is - IF I AM FIDDLING, I AM NOT WRITING..  I spend literally minutes in fiddling, and hours in WRITING.  
 
2 - Record the basic idea - I usually hear a verse and chorus in my head well before I start, not always, but more often than not. I noodle around with a basic idea at least an hour before I start. Recording the basic idea starts with an electric guitar 70% of the time.  I find I lay in an intro, a verse and a chorus almost always.  I comp in a few takes, and then relax - time to choose, but most of the time its first take that I use as my lighthouse, if you will.  Take lanes are so intuitive and fit my way of thinking and reacting, perfectly. When I am done picking the takes,  I relax and loop through the basic structure many times just to infuse the idea as a reality now. 
 
3 - Next, I walk through AD, and find the closest thing to what I can hear in my head, or what fits the emotion or purpose for the song, and lay the intro, verse, chorus, turn, interlude or what have you, down - using mostly supplied midi snippets.  I want to thank the artists who put together the midi tracks that I use - you know who you are AD and Session Drummer folks. Too funny - percussionists hit things with sticks, and hit you over the head when its a perfect groove.   
 
4 - I track out the entire song structure for guitars, sans leads.  No mixing yet - I find if I like it as it sounds when it is laid down, when I mix it into the song structure and add audio effects, I really am going to like it.  This takes time, but X3 has such a superb tool set as to take my mind off of the box, and keep it into the performance. Really - when you think about it, you are probably sitting and fiddling all of about 10 seconds in the box and get 5 minutes of performance for each track.  Thats a hugely GREAT ratio in terms of song writing productivity folks.
 
5 - I lay down bass track - single.  Just like number 4, I really dig X3 and how its so easy to comp record.  While I am not a bass player, to me - getting this track right is dead on important, so when I listen back, I always look at the graphic eq spectrum analyzer.   Its a great reference tool for my eyes, and I rely on it because my ears get pretty fatigued after a few hours of work. Besides the Twin and Marshall bending my ears in 4 above, the SWR I use puts a fade in my ears something fierce.. 
 
6 - I go back to AD and add or subtract simple parts like single crash hits, or mic placement - or room levels.  The midi editor screens and smart tool are employed a ton here.  
 
7 - Now for the vocals.  I write them after the basic rhythm parts are down.  Thank goodness for the loop tool.  What would be really cool is to have a loop, then pause a user supplied number of seconds to write down what popped up in my head.  I know I could track the words, but I don't..  :o)   I generally write lyrics with the person I chose to help sing.  Something about their influence in the lyric that propels them to sing using a higher level of competency and awareness.  Its worth it to me to share credits for them infusing passion.  One thing I like about X3 when I get to this point is the ability to make fast mixes, and versions - I think its rare for me to have just one version during the vocal process.  I can hear where the song is headed, but sometimes the singer and I take a left turn, and conversely I have been very thankful that I had the original point a week later.
 
A note about the power in editing - as I take left turns, it takes very very little time to move a section here, double a section there, delete a section in another place. The point is - once the tracks are in the box, you have this supurb editing functionality that allows me to shift every measure if I want, to a completely different measure.  I haven't done much with tempo changes, but there are great ideas that come from the user forum on how to do just about anything except find the talent button.    
 
9 - Leads, comps, leads and more leads.  Performing the rhythm and bass parts tend to be more mechanical for me.  The analysis part of my brain stays lit most of it.  Now is the time where I have to shut that damn analysis tool down, and turn up the creative part.  I do not know where I would be without comping and having loop points.  Its not uncommon for me to take an hour with one particular guitar setup, then another hour with a completely different setup.  Thank goodness for putting the room in order first, then kudos to my GCX and GCU tools.   
 
The song writing is done. I will have other performers in, but to me the parts I listed are part of creating the song AND as a bonus - rough tracks are in the box.  Now Craig - you wanted to know how we write songs using X3, but to my mind,  the vast power of this tool set is the creative ability to mix and help in the mastering process.