Helpful ReplyHot!How Often Do You Buy a New DAW?

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BenMMusTech
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/11/23 05:24:59 (permalink)
Johnbee58
If the day ever comes when I have to record on something as small as a smart phone that will be the end of my recording days.  I refuse to work on something that small.
 
JB


Amen to that! And this is something that worries me greatly. The music composition, music innovation leads to new music technology and next great thing in music equation has broken down. So Beethoven writes or envisions Moonlight Sonata, which needs a better piano...so the piano forte comes into being. This leads to Wagner taking up the challange a few years later, which leads to The Ring Cycle. The Beatle's take or their producer, engineers take the sonic arts techniques of the avant-gardes, primitive pop songwriting and early recording technology which they push to the limits. Leading to the expansion of the studio and said technology. No one is pushing composition to the next level...meaning no one is pushing music technology to the next level...and so there isn't much innovation going on in regards to music technology. And hence music making starts to contract, which means some fool will and already have started to make music with their phone.

As for Jim - we'll agree to disagree. I know what you're saying about heat and all the other stuff...I've built PCs for myself in the past. But I've just filmed a sequence with the main character is on a dragon flying through the sunset. There's wind in the characters hair, and clothes which I created through the physics engine. Amazing.

I read something really interesting too this morn...at 2 in the morn when I couldn't sleep - that it took Disney Pixar an amazing and inordinate amount of render hours to create some of their well known flicks. All on massive desktop render machines too - I created an 8 minute 3d animation and sonata accompanying this animation...some 100 odd tracks in 5 months. And I didn't put my foot down till the last 2 weeks. So 9-4 in the morn to finish. I'm about to go to the next level with my Arthurian legend piece I'm working on - and I've swallowed all the information on HDR and 10bit color depth now...this was last night...and I have done all this with nothing more than a mid range gaming laptop.

Now The Incredible Bulk my 8 minute 3d animation is still a little rough around the edges - I was learning as I went...but I will deliver in a piece or two, and when I can get my hands on some more 10 bit video tech a HDR 4k Hollywood 3d animation...and only with a gaming laptop.

But then again - I'm willing to take risks with the tech.

No offense was meant - even if I was jousting a bit with you Jim.

Ben

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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#31
gswitz
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/11/23 11:40:00 (permalink)
I think the last laptop I bought for myself was 2006. At the time I bought a nice one and I do still use it sometimes. I can record 16 24 bit tracks indefinitely on it.

I also have a USB ssd with Ubuntu studio on it and I can boot most computers to that. This saves me the trouble of having to bring my own computer. I have done large multitrack live recordings using that ssd and Linux on random laptops. I can use any handy laptop with the ssd and it works like it is my personal computer with all my programs.

For home recording, I have a rack mountable studio-cat which is getting old now. Jim probably knows how old. Six years? More? My only issue is not the fault of the computer. I like to use rapture pro with high voice counts and this can drive one processor to the point of glitching.

I don't use sonar in the field. There are two reasons.

1. If a dropout occurs sonar doesn't recover and keep going. This is fine in the studio but when recording and mixing a band live, this is unacceptable. There are too many ways a recording can be ruined. Adding fx live etc.

2. Rapture pro entices me. I have so much fun with it I would love to take it out with me. But it is too hard to bypass. I can't bypass it with act. I've given up. And at times when I'm playing, it must be bypassed or it will go glitchy. I can bypass it by touching the touch screen but this is hardly a performance level solution.

So i have never needed to put my studio-cat rack-ears on. I have manually carried it out unracked maybe 4 times to do remote web broadcasts.

For field recordings, I tend to use rme digicheck [definite favorite] or mixbus with my rme in class compliant mode

It is nowhere on my list to buy more computer hardware.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#32
tecknot
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/11/24 02:18:10 (permalink)
As soon as my current one turns sour.  I try to use it up before the expiration date.
 
Kind regards,
 
tecknot
#33
razor
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/11/26 23:28:25 (permalink)
I left the thread over the holiday and came back to great points. Glad we live in a day when we have choices on what DAW rig we buy and how often, based on our own unique workflow style and needs.

Stephen Davis
 
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#34
rj davis
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/11/29 00:07:19 (permalink)
The StudioCat desktop I got from Jim two years ago is the single best investment in my music I have ever made.  It is SO rock solid and transparent to the creation process that I can completely focus on the music now.  I'm spoiled.  (BTW, I'm a heavy duty hobbyist and hopeless gearhead, but not a pro.)  When this rig hiccups in the slightest I will get another one from Jim.  But it hasn't been close yet.  So who knows when I'll get another one?  Based on my experience, I'd recommend buying the best you can afford from a pro and using it until it no longer makes sense.

Ron
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#35
Starise
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/11/29 16:18:31 (permalink)
When getting down to the nitty gritty of actual in use performance scenarios between the two it all depends on what you're doing what you need and how much. 
It is possible to use a laptop for many things audio and/or video with great success. Just depends on you and what you want or need.
People have been playing guitar and synth virtual instruments on stage long before the latest Intel chip came out and not everyone that uses soft synths has a super fast cpu. What's really the difference between 1ms and 4ms in terms of actually hearing it and playing it? Maybe not much. Certainly anyone serious in that game will opt for the best they can get, yet many have done it with far less. Buying a new system? Play guitars though a computer? Then go for that fast desktop and interface. I have the I7-7500U in my laptop and it isn't too shabby at 4 cores and 3.5ghz.. NO I don't need it for stage vsti work so I haven't tested my latency. It has been fine running DAWS and recording though. I believe I can go into my bios and take throttling out since it's a gaming laptop. TBH I've never noticed any throttling happening with it. I guess I've never pushed it hard enough. I wouldn't be afraid to hook a midi keyboard to it and play sample libraries. I wouldn't trust it to run a bluetooth keyboard though.
 
I mainly use my desktop. Not holding one above the other. I'm just making the point that all you need is enough.

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#36
BobF
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/11/29 16:53:11 (permalink)
I'll get a smartphone or laptop when they become available with 43" displays

Bob  --
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#37
Jim Roseberry
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/11/29 18:03:25 (permalink)
Starise
 I believe I can go into my bios and take throttling out since it's a gaming laptop. TBH I've never noticed any throttling happening with it. I guess I've never pushed it hard enough. I wouldn't be afraid to hook a midi keyboard to it and play sample libraries. I wouldn't trust it to run a bluetooth keyboard though.
 



If the laptop is running a "Mobile" CPU (most do), by very definition, that is performance-throttling.
You can use a small utility like CPUID's "HW Monitor" to see if your CPU's clock-speed is being throttled.
I'm almost positive that's the case... but it's easy to verify.
Many "Gaming" laptops still don't expose most of the BIOS settings available in a quality desktop motherboard.
 
It's down to Thermodynamics.
You can only generate/dissipate so much heat in a super tight enclosure.
There's obviously no physical space for the equivalent of a large Noctua cooler.
 
If you absolutely need mobility, it is what it is... 
If you can afford a laptop that uses a desktop CPU (and don't mind the size/weight and shorter battery-life), that'll get you closer to desktop performance.
 
Extended battery-life means (significant) performance-throttling.
Needless to say, run off the power-adapter when working with Audio/Video.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#38
Starise
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/03 19:36:01 (permalink)
Thank you for those tips Jim!
As chance would have it I needed a large pipe organ on stage Sunday. I tried two, the Kontakt Factory sounds preset and the "Full Pipe" organ in the Korg M-1 on the laptop. Surprisingly in a side by side comparison the M-1 sounded more detailed than the Kontakt sample. 
FYI I used the M-1 in my laptop with the standard internal sound and a midi keyboard controller. I could detect some slight delay. It was so nil that it didn't hinder me. I never took the time to see what the latency actually was. I'm sure I could have done better with an outboard interface.

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#39
tobiaslindahl
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/08 18:40:55 (permalink)
I recently went from an older laptop to a new desktop because the requirements has changed on my part. Wont be upgrading this for quite a while I hope, if nothing breaks that is. 
 
With some basic knowledge anyone can put together a PC that is more than good enough for 99% of the usecases out there. I realize many people dont want to mess with putting one together, but these days it is rather simple so why spend that extra money on having someone do it for you?  I am not sure why one of those specialist PC's would be better than one you put together yourself or buy prebuilt from any store as long as you get teh parts you want/need?  Are there unique parts involved or something else I am missing? 
Maybe it is NOT more expensive, I am only guessing :) 
#40
fireberd
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/08 19:18:52 (permalink)
tobiaslindahl.  I build my own desktops but that is not for everyone.  Same holds true for factory build's (e.g. a Dell).
There are many that want a "plug and play" system and a self built or factory build requires more than "plug and play".  Thus the custom builders come in as they have the expertise to do exactly that and deliver a fully configured specialized "plug and play" system to their customers.  
 
An off the shelf factory built system takes some knowledge to get it set up for use a recording DAW.  Not just "tweaking the OS" but removing factory installed apps that can or potentially can interfere with recording.  A point in that is a Dell laptop that I bought last year for off site recordings.  I worked on the Dell factory disc image install but was not able to fully get it to the point it could reliably record - with my knowledge and help from some Dell engineer friends (at Dell HQ in Round Rock Tx) I still had an occasional drop out (about every 20 minutes) when recording.  I was able to overcome this and get it set up for recording but that took a complete clean install of only the OS, needed drivers and the DAW software and recording interface drivers.  Which brings us back to the point of why many buy the specialized/setup systems from DAW builders, such as Jim Roseberry (with his 25 years of experience with this). 

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#41
tobiaslindahl
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/08 19:34:45 (permalink)
fireberd
tobiaslindahl.  I build my own desktops but that is not for everyone.  Same holds true for factory build's (e.g. a Dell).
There are many that want a "plug and play" system and a self built or factory build requires more than "plug and play".  Thus the custom builders come in as they have the expertise to do exactly that and deliver a fully configured specialized "plug and play" system to their customers.  
 
An off the shelf factory built system takes some knowledge to get it set up for use a recording DAW.  Not just "tweaking the OS" but removing factory installed apps that can or potentially can interfere with recording.  A point in that is a Dell laptop that I bought last year for off site recordings.  I worked on the Dell factory disc image install but was not able to fully get it to the point it could reliably record - with my knowledge and help from some Dell engineer friends (at Dell HQ in Round Rock Tx) I still had an occasional drop out (about every 20 minutes) when recording.  I was able to overcome this and get it set up for recording but that took a complete clean install of only the OS, needed drivers and the DAW software and recording interface drivers.  Which brings us back to the point of why many buy the specialized/setup systems from DAW builders, such as Jim Roseberry (with his 25 years of experience with this). 




Fair points. I guess my comment was more for those who actually can put together a PC themselves, which I actually believe are quite a few. I fully understand if people do not want to do that though. It takes a bit of work, but if one is careful and take enough time it is not that hard. But still, I see your point.
In a specialized setup are there any special parts that go into it, making them different from "normal" systems in that the parts are not off the shelf stuff? I get they are most likely build for silence ( maybe ) and obviously performance etc, but that can easily be done buying the right parts yourself ... if you fall into that category of people who can, that is. Maybe I just assume people are more comfortable with this kind of stuff than they really are. Could be the case. 
#42
Jim Roseberry
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/08 22:29:33 (permalink)
A great DAW is the sum of everything (parts, performance, quiet, tweaks to BIOS/OS, etc).
When you go to a professional of 25 years, there's nothing left to guesswork/happenstance.
All the details have been attended to... 
Speaking for myself, I've built/supported thousands of machines.  
That amounts to many thousands of hours of experience. 
IOW, We don't rely on NewEgg "user-reviews" (often flawed with pilot error/inexperience) or PC part-picker.  
It's no different than a guitar builder, auto-mechanic, contractor, etc.
 
I'll liken it to a Fender style bolt-on neck guitar.
Almost anyone can bolt together a "Parts-Caster".
However, it will not be the equivalent of a Suhr or Anderson... unless you have advanced skills/knowledge/experience.
 
I like PRS guitars... for the exact same reason.
I don't have to upgrade/change anything.
Paul's guitars consistently look/sound amazing, play amazing, and they're easy to maintain.
It's all in the fine details.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#43
tobiaslindahl
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/09 21:00:37 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry
A great DAW is the sum of everything (parts, performance, quiet, tweaks to BIOS/OS, etc).
When you go to a professional of 25 years, there's nothing left to guesswork/happenstance.
All the details have been attended to... 
Speaking for myself, I've built/supported thousands of machines.  
That amounts to many thousands of hours of experience. 
IOW, We don't rely on NewEgg "user-reviews" (often flawed with pilot error/inexperience) or PC part-picker.  
It's no different than a guitar builder, auto-mechanic, contractor, etc.
 
I'll liken it to a Fender style bolt-on neck guitar.
Almost anyone can bolt together a "Parts-Caster".
However, it will not be the equivalent of a Suhr or Anderson... unless you have advanced skills/knowledge/experience.
 
I like PRS guitars... for the exact same reason.
I don't have to upgrade/change anything.
Paul's guitars consistently look/sound amazing, play amazing, and they're easy to maintain.
It's all in the fine details.
 




Some good points. I would say though, using you analogy with a parts caster and a Suhr for example, most people will do just fine with a well made parts caster. :) Until you reach a certain level you wont even be able to tell the differance between a Squire and a better guitar. Hell, most blind tests on sound tells me a rather cheap squire will match a more expensive amercan made strat for example, unless you know beforehand which is which. Playability might differ somewhat, but usually small mods will fix that too and make them play on par, pretty much. 
It is not going to be top of the line premium, but more than good enough for most people. I realize there are levels to everything, instruments, computers, speakers etc. Been doing this for long enough to know that for most people, getting that last 5% of performance that might come from a PERFECTLY calibrated system/instrument, is not going to be needed or even noticed.  
 
Not trying to knock specialized computers, for pro's who want the absolute best I could see the need more so than for a hobbyist kind of a guy. But what teh hell do I know :) My PC might be dog **** for all I know.
#44
Jim Roseberry
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/10 10:28:20 (permalink)
If you pickup a Fender custom-shop guitar... and compare it side-by-side with a Squire, the difference in quality/playability is pretty obvious.
 
Same with a Gibson Les Paul...
Pickup a R9 and play it for a while.
Now, immediately pickup a Les Paul Studio model.
 
In the case of PRS, their stock "Core" models are typically excellent in most every way.
But pickup one of their Private Stock guitars.
Makes you wonder just how much better one can build a guitar.
Everything is done to perfection.
IMO, John Suhr and Tom Anderson have done the same with Fender style guitars.
 
Everyone has to live within some means.
High-end gear isn't practical for everyone or every situation.
 
One of my best friends likes to collect guitars.
He jokes... "I don't have money to buy Custom Shop or PRS guitars."
Ironically, his guitar collection cost a whole lot more than mine.
The difference, I have three... he has around 300.
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#45
tobiaslindahl
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/10 10:41:37 (permalink)
300 guitars ?! lol jesus christ ! :) 
#46
rj davis
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/10 22:56:42 (permalink)
Three is a good number of guitars to have, and I sometimes wonder which three it would be.  I have, uh...more than three.  :)   BUT...less than 200.

Ron
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#47
fret_man
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/11 03:16:56 (permalink)
No, three's not enough.
  1. Rosewood guitar
  2. Mahogany guitar
  3. Travel guitar
  4. National-style guitar
  5. 12-string
  6. Nylon string
  7. Campfire beater guitar
  8. Bass guitar for those occasions when no others can be found
  9. The one your wife gave you that you can't/shouldn't get rid of
... and that's only the acoustics.
#48
Jim Roseberry
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/11 10:12:37 (permalink)
Wanting a Suhr Modern Select...
Had a Suhr Modern Pro a while back.
Fits that Super-Strat role well (pickups have umph - but not super high output).
Today's my birthday, so maybe it's a NGD.  May liquidate a couple of things to make it happen.
 
Three to four seems to be the right number for me (all electric).
I'd like to have a nice Taylor acoustic at some point... but I fear it would open a (new) rabbit-hole.  

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#49
fireberd
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/11 13:55:47 (permalink)
Enough guitars?  I have 12 including 2 Pedal Steel Guitars, 3 basses, 4 acoustic and 3 electric.
The lead guitar player in our band has over 30 guitars, all American made including a Strat Plus that's his main gigging guitar.  He also has about a dozen Fender tube amps including one blackface Twin and two blackface Pro Reverb's. 
 

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#50
DeeringAmps
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/11 14:06:18 (permalink)
<way off topic>
Jim,
I'd look at a Grosh retro classic in swamp ash.
Mine is just a "cannon", notes just "explode" off the fret board.
I've played some Suhr's, I own two Grosh's...
</way off topic>
 
T

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#51
pwalpwal
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/11 14:07:45 (permalink)
when do i buy a new anything? when mrs. me says it's ok

just a sec

#52
Leadfoot
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/11 15:22:47 (permalink)
Happy b-day Jim! Hope you get that Suhr!
#53
Wayfarer
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/11 18:04:01 (permalink)
A new PC or a new DAW? I haven't bought a DAW since Cool Edit Pro 2.1 in 2002 and upgraded it (for free) to Adobe Audition the following year. I don't mess with midi junk, just real people playing real instruments, so I can't imagine why I would ever need anything else. It's still the undefeated champ of wave trackers / editors in my opinion.
 
I built my last PC in 2010 - AMD Phenom II X4 965 Black Edition Deneb 3.4GHz Quad-Core. Nothing that's come out since then is really much faster, so I see no need to replace it, although I've reached a stage where I have to put a space heater in front of it to make it start in cooler months, so I'm sure there must be a crack in the MOBO somewhere. Whether I'll just replace the MOBO or build a new PC when this gives up the ghost is still undecided.
 
Still use Windows 7 too.
 
Anyhow, if it ain't broke.... (beyond repair I mean)
 
Bill
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Re: How Often Do You Buy a New DAW? 2018/12/11 19:00:45 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry
If you pickup a Fender custom-shop guitar... and compare it side-by-side with a Squire, the difference in quality/playability is pretty obvious.
 
 

It depends on what Squire. The Classic Vibe series is tough to beat out of the box.
 
But the only great strat or tele you'll ever own is the one you build yourself. The custom shop guitars aren't really very "custom" at all. They're mostly just custom colored bodies. Try to order one with a neck size or body size other than what's on their regular store bought guitars. They won't do it. But you can order a tele body that'a a full inch bigger on every side from Rutter's Guitars. I can (and have) ordered necks with a 1 3/4" nut widths from Northern Redfish Guitar Parts. The only noiseless pickups worth owning in my opinion are the Dimarzio Area series. You won't get them from Fender. I like using linear tapered pots for quick staccato pinky-round-the-volume knob swells and tone-wahs. You won't get those from Fender either. (I also open up and remove most of the dampening grease from the pots so they'll turn easier.) I also use a specific size Orange Drop .047uf cap to get a better wah sound from the tone control. I'm not sure, but I don't think Fender will do that for you. I use HIPSHOT O-Ring Knobs which have some concentric rubber 0-rings around them that give your finger something to grip hold of when doing swells and wahs. I only use 5-hole 3-Ply parchment pick-guards so I don't have a bunch of screws ruining the looks of my teles. I like the way early 50's headstocks look with a circular string retainer and a 53 style logo in the same place they put them back then. Fender won't do that logo for you, but you can find them on eBay and apply them yourself. Lastly, like a lot of guys from Roy Buchanan to Danny Gatton, I won't use any saddles but the original 3-barrel brass. Nothing else has that thick meaty sound. You can still get those from Fender, but their American made teles have the bridge holes cut in a different spot to accommodate their newer (and worse) bridge / saddles. I'm not sure if the custom shop will make a body cut for the older bridges. if not, you have to find a used MIM body somewhere (they still use the older bridges) or have one custom made.
 
I just don't see where the custom shop is much good for anything other than ordering over-priced guitars that won't have much of anything custom about them. But to each his own. I've been building partscaster teles since the 90's.
 
This last one I built cost me right at $500 and is better than anything you'll come close to getting from the custom shop, but they won't even do 1/4 of things I would like to have done, so it's a moot point. I kept track of my parts:
 
Neck: Northern Redfish Guitar Parts "Fatboy" wide Tele neck $89.00 + $30 shipping - (From Canada but made in Korea to the shop owner's specs from beautiful Canadian Rock Maple.)
Fingerboard: maple
Number of Frets: 21 (I like the look of 21 frets. 22 fret Fenders look like they have a hangnail in my opinion.)
Fret Size: 6230 leveled, crowned and polished
Neck Shape: Modern "C"
Neck Material: Canadian Rock Maple
Neck Finish: 400 grit sanded, Vintage Tint, Poly-Gloss finish
Fingerboard Radius: 9.5
Scale Length: 25 1/2
Nut Width: 1 3/4" (44. mm)
Position Inlays: Dot
Truss Rod Adjustment at Front
10 mm Standard Tuner holes straight bore through
 
Body: MIM Sunburst Fender: $95.00 (Shipping was supposed to be an additional $21.70, but was refunded because the seller was late shipping it.) Immaculate condition. Came with strap buttons, ferrules, jack and cup. I just waited patiently till one came up on eBay in my price range. It came with shielding spray in the pickup / control plate cavities, so I didn't have to buy any shielding tape.
 
TUSQ Nut Blank: $10.11
 
Control Plate with angled selector switch: $30.00 (I turn them around backwards with the volume knob at the front and selector switch at the rear.)
 

 
Control plate wiring parts: CTS Linear 250K pots, Orange Drop .047uf cap, CRL 3-way switch, Switchcraft input jack, resistor $33.40
 
Chrome Neck Plate w/screws: used - $3.41 + $2.95 shipping
 
Circular String Retainer from Guitar Fetish: $4.25
 
Chrome Gotoh Style 14:1 Tuners from Guitar Fetish: $25.95, shipping $5.00 (includes above item)
 
Standard Copper Tape Shielding Kit from StewMac: $14.98 + $6.95
 
Chrome Pickguard Screws from Allparts: $5.00
 
3-Ply Parchment Pickguard from Allparts: $16.00 + $8.00 shipping (includes screws listed above)
 
HIPSHOT O-Ring Knobs CHROME: $17.58 + $3.98 shipping
 
Dimarzio Area T pickups (used): $97.50
 
Total - $477.13
 
If the custom shop would have even done all that, it would have cost me somewhere between $3,000 - 5,000. No thanks.
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