brundlefly

FWIW, I think Set Measure/Beat At Now lets you do this with less trial and error, and with greater accuracy and precision.

You know, I was looking yesterday for this very thing in the X1 help file ... I recalled there was a feature like this and wanted revisit the subject.  Where is this discussed?  I couldn't find it for the life of me using the help index or search.

To sync the project tempo to freely played MIDI
If you have recorded a MIDI track without a metronome, you may want to align the project’s tempo
map with the MIDI performance. The Set/Measure Beat At Now command allows you to create new
bar lines to fit your project. This command does not stretch audio. It works by adjusting tempo so
that measure lines line up with audio transients or MIDI data. The tempo will ramp up/down from the
previous tempo change in order to arrive at the required tempo.
To use the Set Measure/Beat At Now command, you need to be able to identify where you want to
put the downbeats of each measure, and possibly where you want to place some other beats of the
measure, if the tempo varies a lot.

Several ways to skin a cat... :)  I've always done it my way which produces the same result of manipulating the grid to follow varying tempos etc.... 

I'll try this way next time and report on which I prefer.

I also use Traktor Pro which allows for placing beat markers in real time for the purpose of time locking any of your samples or tracks.  very cool.  Thanks for weighing in everyone!!

Using SM/BAN is mandatory if you're working with MIDI in the project because MIDI will follow any tempo changes you make, rather than having the grid move "underneath" it as it does with audio. You can set the Timebase of MIDI clips to Absolute, but this only affects the start time of the clip. The length and timing of notes in the clip will still follow the tempo changes (i.e. maintain the same M:B:T values). So if you have MIDI and audio tracks that are in sync with each other, and you make a manual tempo change, they'll go out of sync. I have submitted bug reports in the past that setting a MIDI clip's timebase to Absolute should apply to it's length as well as its start time, but they've been closed as WAD. Guess I need to submit it as a Feature Request.

Not mandatory, I use midi and audio in sync with each other and then make changes all the time.  I'm not using SM/BAN.  I'm never out of sync.  The reason it's not mandatory for me is that, I'm never trying to stretch the midi to fit.  If I needed to stretch the midi I might use SM/BAN.

That being said, I've put in requests as well for the ability to lock midi clips to absolute time.  You can check it off now, but it doesnt actually go off absolute time.  It's still relative to tempo.  I know, I know, that's how midi works... time based. 

Interesting thread that I'm just now getting to - Several tempo related topics one thread.

Just wanted to add that as with all things, we develop our preferred ways of working.  When I've needed to get a tempo map to sync up to audio not recorded with a metronome, over time I've used both Blogman's by-hand method, and the Set/Measure Beat At Now method.  It worked fine to do it by hand, inserting tempo changes according to what I heard, but I was doing that before I knew about the Set/Measure tool.  Both methods call for a bit of trial and error, but for me the S/M tool is much faster and easier.  It's a clever bit of programming that makes this particular task easier to do - in my experience.

But, as pointed out on this thread, you don't always need to have an accurate tempo map, if you're recording without a metronome and don't care how the music lines up with measures.  As soon as you Do need accurate measures and tempo changes, then obviously you have to do some mapping so the MIDI in your project can sync up with any audio that's already been recorded or imported.

Randy B.

brundlefly

Blogman

Using SM/BAN is mandatory if you're working with MIDI in the project because MIDI will follow any tempo changes you make, rather than having the grid move "underneath" it as it does with audio. You can set the Timebase of MIDI clips to Absolute, but this only affects the start time of the clip. The length and timing of notes in the clip will still follow the tempo changes (i.e. maintain the same M:B:T values). So if you have MIDI and audio tracks that are in sync with each other, and you make a manual tempo change, they'll go out of sync. I have submitted bug reports in the past that setting a MIDI clip's timebase to Absolute should apply to it's length as well as its start time, but they've been closed as WAD. Guess I need to submit it as a Feature Request.

Not mandatory, I use midi and audio in sync with each other and then make changes all the time.  I'm not using SM/BAN.  I'm never out of sync.  The reason it's not mandatory for me is that, I'm never trying to stretch the midi to fit.  If I needed to stretch the midi I might use SM/BAN.

That being said, I've put in requests as well for the ability to lock midi clips to absolute time.  You can check it off now, but it doesnt actually go off absolute time.  It's still relative to tempo.  I know, I know, that's how midi works... time based.

Your first post started out saying "What I do is record whatever you want first. then enable the audio click." If you do this with synced MIDI and audio, and then start making tempo changes manually, the two will go out of sync because the audio will retain it's absolute timing while MIDI will follow the tempo changes along with the grid, moving relative to the audio.


If you start out with synced MIDI and audio already aligned to the grid, and enable Autostretch on the audio before making tempo changes, then they will stay in sync. But this is not where the conversation started.


SM/BAN makes tempo changes that move the grid relative to both MIDI and audio, without changing the absolute timing of either. Set Project from Clip does the same. That's their magic, and you can't do it any other way for MIDI, except by Process > Length.

Yeah you have to enable audio stretching for the audio to stay syncd up.  I dont usually do much freehand midi.  Most of my midi is laid down to grid.  Or the scratch piano goes down as audio freely without click. It's usually audio I get that needs to be clicked.  My method is limited to audio and Ive wanted to do be able to adjust the grid against midi as well but havent needed to.  Glad to see it's in there and I plan to exploit it.  I would like to see independent 'Clip tempo maps'  for both midi clips as well as audio clips though.  Might be interesting. 

Enjoying the conversation.  Thanks for the great discussion.  Great way to share and learn.

I record and sync Sonar to freely recorded audio all the time. The method I use is like Blogman's and takes a little while but leaves the original audio or midi unchanged and works well for me:
1. Record one or more audio or midi tracks with the metronome switched off.
2. Make sure Snap is switched off.
3. Grab and slide the tracks so that the first beat is roughly over the start of the second measure in Sonar.
4. Expand out the audio or midi track to try and get some visual on exactly where the first beat is and get the curser/time-line as accurately as possible on the first beat (which should now be somewhere near the start of the second measure).
5. Hit 'Shift-N' and make sure you are about to adjust the 'now time' to 2:01:000
6. Move to the exact start of the second bar (as recorded) of the song which depending on the tempo may now be somewhere near the 3:01 but it doesn't matter if it's a bit out.
7. Hit 'Shift-N' and make sure you are about to assign the now time to 3:01:000
8. Progress through the song using 'Shift-N' every time the song drifts away from the grid. I often actually use Shift-N at the start of every bar which, as I say, takes a while but works well for me.
9. View the tempo map, switch on the playback metronome and marvel how it is in perfect sync when you play back the song.
It can help get things started if you set the project tempo to be roughly the same as the freely recorded audio before you start recording. I've found that this can lead to a smoother tempo map at the very beginning and can make the initially setting of 2:01:000 work better.
Hint: If you want a 'live feel' but not 'too live' then try recording a guide track, sync'ing Sonar to it, then smoothing out the tempo map to correct any wild swings, then re-recording against a metronome for the adjusted moving tempo map.
I hope this is helpful,
Very best wishes