How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :)

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John
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/09 17:26:04 (permalink)
From the manual.

X-Ray

The X-Ray Windows feature eliminates the need to constantly minimize, move, or close windows in
order to work in other windows. It works by decreasing the opacity of the current window enough so
that you can see and work with the window that’s behind the current window. You activate the
feature by pressing SHIFT+X when the mouse cursor is over a window you want to x-ray. You can
choose to X-Ray whichever window is underneath the mouse cursor, or automatically X-Ray all FX/
synth property pages in one step.
The X-Ray Windows feature works on the following windows:
• Piano Roll view (when float-enabled)
• Plug-in effects and synths
• Controller/Surface plug-ins
To select key bindings for X-Ray windows
1. Use the Edit > Preferences command to open the Preferences dialog, then select
Customization - Key Bindings.
2. If you want to use currently unassigned keys or key combinations, scroll through the options in
the Key window until the Global Key Assignment field that is just under the window reads
Unassigned. It’s a good idea to find two unassigned options that are next to each other or easy
to remember.
3. Once you have decided on two keys or key combinations that you want to use, select Global
Bindings in the Bind Context field, and scroll to the bottom of the list of commands that are in
the window below that field.
4. In the Key window, highlight the key or key combination that you want to use for the X-Ray
command, then highlight X-Ray in the function column of the list of commands, then click the
Bind button to bind them together.
5. Now highlight the key or key combination that you want to use for the X-Ray All FX/Synths
command, then highlight X-Ray All FX/Synths in the function column of the list of commands,
then click the Bind button to bind them together.
6. Click OK to close the dialog.
To use X-Ray windows
1. Use the Edit > Preferences command to open the Preferences dialog, click Customization -
Display and make sure the Enable X-Ray check box is selected.
2. Make sure that the view windows you want to X-Ray are in the Floating-enabled state. To check
this, click the view or fx icon that’s in the upper left corner of a window, and select Enable
Floating from the drop-down menu. If Disable Floating is in the menu, then the Floating option
is already enabled.
3. To X-Ray or un-X-Ray a single window, move the mouse cursor over the window, and press
SHIFT+X for the X-Ray command. The window does not need to be the highlighted window.
4. To X-Ray or un-X-Ray all plug-in windows at once, press the key binding for the X-Ray All FX/
Synths command.
To Adjust X-Ray Windows Options
5. Use the Edit > Preferences command to open the Preferences dialog, then click
Customization - Display.
6. On the General tab, you can adjust these options:
• Enable X-Ray. Enable or disable this check box to turn the X-Ray Windows feature on or off.
• Opacity. Adjust this value by typing in a value, or by clicking and holding the + or - button to
adjust the final opacity percentage value that an X-Rayed window reaches.
• Fade Out Time. Adjust this value by typing in a value, or by clicking and holding the + or -
button to adjust the amount of time that an X-Rayed window takes to reach its final opacity
percentage value.
• Fade In Time. Adjust this value by clicking and holding the + or - button to adjust the amount
of time that an X-Rayed window takes to restore its original opacity.
7. Click OK to close the dialog and accept your changes.
To exclude a plug-in from X-Ray capability
Very few plug-ins use DirectDraw to create their windows. These windows appear jittery when xrayed.
To exclude a plug-in from X-Ray capability, follow these steps:
1. Use the Utilities > Cakewalk Plug- in Manager command to open the Cakewalk Plug-in
Manager.
2. In the Plug-in Categories window, select the plug-in category to exclude.
3. In the Registered Plug-ins window, select the plug-in to exclude.
4. If the plug-in is a DirectX effect or an MFX, write down (or select and copy) the CLSID value
that’s in the CLSID field at the bottom of the dialog.
If VST or VSTi, write down the VST ID value that’s in the VST ID field at the bottom of the dialog.
5. Close the Plug-in Manager dialog.
6. Open the Xrayexclude.ini file that’s in your SONAR program folder (use Notepad).
7. At the end of the file, find the [EffectProps View] section.
You will see entries such as the following:
; Waves SSL EQ Stereo
XRayExclude11=1397510483
XRayExclude12={E451379E-F7E1-4E82-98D9-BEB87AC45E90}
8. Exclude your plug-in by creating a blank line below the last entry in the [EffectProps View]
section, and then typing:
;[name of your plug-in, but without brackets]
XRayExclude[type the next available number in XRayExclude list, but without brackets]=[VST ID
number, with no brackets, or CLSID number, with curly brackets at start and finish]
For example, if the last entry in the [EffectProps View] section was:
; Waves SSL EQ Stereo
XRayExclude11=1397510483
XRayExclude12={E451379E-F7E1-4E82-98D9-BEB87AC45E90}
If you want to exclude the Cakewalk FxDelay from the X-Ray Windows feature, after creating a
blank line, type:
; Cakewalk FxDelay
XRayExclude13={985DAF67-589F-4B8D-8BBC-D7AD651B9022}
If there was also a VST version of the Cakewalk FxDelay, you would add another line:
XRayExclude14=[some VST ID number, with no brackets]
9. Save and close the Xrayexclude.ini file, and restart SONAR to implement your changes.

Best
John
#31
adrian4u
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/09 17:26:46 (permalink)
I ment MIDI transparency or signal splitting - I don't really have idea why it works with Cubase (bleahhhhhh) and with Sonar - doesn't

btw. I haven't found any xRay settings - can you explain where 2 find? Just curious....

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#32
John
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/09 17:30:12 (permalink)
Adrian look above.

If you are talking about one MIDI track outputting to two inputs no Sonar can't do that. But you can copy the MIDI track and have the copy output to another input.
post edited by John - 2011/09/09 17:32:37

Best
John
#33
adrian4u
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/09 17:46:42 (permalink)
but it's not the problem with OUTPUT - just with INPUT.
Editor works two-way - it sends messages to synth (and it's OK, cause I can play from another instruments using synth as a sound module) but also it needs "feedback" FROM synth (to get patches names etc) - it looks like editor wants to take MIDI INPUT for it own purposes exclusively, and doesn't allow Sonar to use this input. As I wrote - to get communication I can't activate MIDI INPUT from synth in Sonar.
And as i mentioned above - there is no such problem with Cubase so I try to discover the nature of problem and - how to go over it to make ALL work together - synth, Sonar and editor.....

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#34
John
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/09 18:09:20 (permalink)
it looks like editor wants to take MIDI INPUT for it own purposes exclusively, and doesn't allow Sonar to use this input. As I wrote - to get communication I can't activate MIDI INPUT from synth in Sonar.
OK why do you want Sonar to receive this input from the synth? I see what you mean about the editor wanting input from the synth but what would Sonar do with it if it got it?

I have an editor for my XV 5080 but its stand alone and doesn't use Sonar. It works much as you describe. However the data going to the editor from the synth is mostly sysex data. I'm not sure what you would do with this in Sonar. You could have the synth dump sysex to Sonar.

Best
John
#35
adrian4u
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/09 19:32:08 (permalink)
what I want to reach? Use editor inside Sonar (as a dedicated VST plugin) as I can do it in cubase, and the same time use synthh's jeyboard as a controller... as in Cubase.

I was downstairs in my music room, trying to find out what makes Cubase work with it and Sonar not - but Cubase is so illogical that i gave up....

without any settings it just work....

Phenom II x6 1100T (OC to 6x 4,1gHz), 8gB DDR3/1600gHz RAM, Win7/64; SONAR Producer X1c; Korgs: Z1, M50, Triton Rack, TRinity Rack; NI Maschine; Behringer BCF-R2000; MOTU 828mk3 FW; Edirol Edirol UA-1000; guitars: Cort Z-Custom, LAG JET100 totally customed, Cort SFX-DAO; some other music toys, one very musical cat 
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#36
John
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/09 19:58:52 (permalink)
what I want to reach? Use editor inside Sonar (as a dedicated VST plugin) as I can do it in cubase, and the same time use synthh's jeyboard as a controller... as in Cubase.
Now I understand. Thanks for going to the trouble to explain what you are doing.

Best
John
#37
adrian4u
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/10 04:09:19 (permalink)
it could be bettwe If I culd add some short movie, John, bcause everyone's bored our chat, I think ;)

but simply - you can look at this editor as at  (sort of) VST synth, cause they look similar. The main difference is that soundengine is a piece of hardware outside the DAW.

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#38
John
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/10 04:15:53 (permalink)
I know that this probably is not going to help but do you local control on on your synth?

Best
John
#39
Skyline_UK
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/10 05:50:00 (permalink)
Adrian, I'm having a big problem understanding why you have a problem at all, sorry!
Could you just stand back from the detail for a minute and describe for me how you actually want to go about making music with your keyboards?
For example:
 (1) Do you want to play your keyboards, selecting the banks/patches at the keyboard end, and just record audio tracks in your DAW?  Or,
 (2) Do you want to play your keyboards and record the notes just in the form of MIDI tracks in your DAW, so you can later replay those tracks with different patches to see which you prefer and then record those sounds as audio tracks as your DAW plays them back through your keyboard's sound module?, or:
(3) Something different from the above?  If so, please describe.

John 
post edited by Skyline_UK - 2011/09/10 05:51:35

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#40
adrian4u
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/10 06:26:07 (permalink)
Skyline - as you see, we started from "how you work with hardware synths" in general...

I just - as one of the problems I see in Sonar - described issue with Korg VST-editor, what causes pretty nice offtop chat.

At the beginning - I was wondering how the forum members work with hardware synths, to share experiences, and to try jump over some disfunctionalities of Sonar when it comes to working with MIDI hardware.

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#41
FastBikerBoy
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/10 07:37:36 (permalink)
Having re-read this thread I think the main difference between the way I work with synths and how you work is where the detail goes in.

I tend to call up an existing patch that's pretty close to the sound I want, then record the MIDI input, then tweak patches as a separate process.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are tweaking patches as you record. Nothing wrong with that of course but it may be why you find it harder to work with the VST version of your synth.

my 2 pence............
#42
inaheartbeat
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/10 18:14:50 (permalink)
I am very curious why you think Sonar should have input gain control. I presume, since you are using Sonar, that you have a means to get your audio signals into your PC. Whatever you are using is, I assume, going to have some input gain control at the analog front end. Even the cheapest interfaces have mic/line inputs with pre-amps so you could use that input for your weak signal and then just increase the level of the pre-amp.

Because I did not have a PC I felt was capable enough, I have, until recently, only been using hardware synths. They range from the vintage variety to the new and have a wide range of output levels. In fact, the signal will vary considerably depending on the patch you are using or what you are doing with filters and resonance settings. I suspect Sonar does not have input gain control because, bluntly, it does not make practical sense. Allow me to describe why.

For each channel or stereo pair I have two things set up that I regard as essential if you want to keep things clean and be safe with your equipment and ears. The first is a noise gate to keep unwanted garbage out of your mix from those devices (such as my Juno 106) that have noisy outputs even if you don't play. Second and almost more important is to put a limiter on each channel for those devices that can spike a really hot signal and send your brain and speaker cones flying across the room. My Devilfish modified TB-303 is exactly this type of beast. It is literally dangerous to play with this without protection lol! I am using two Roland Octa-Captures in my setup so each individual port has these feature available which is just fantastically convenient. Now explain how you could possibly protect yourself and your equipment and avoid unwanted noise with input gain control in your PC? At that point it is WAY too late.

I have a synth with exactly the same problem you do, low output. It is the Waldorf Blofeld which is notorious for this. My solution is pretty simple. I just crank up the gain on the pre-amp for that port in my Octa-Capture. Any additional noise that would creep in is knocked down by the noise gate and I can get my signal as hot as I need it. Note that ANY hardware synth has a variety of patches and the output levels can vary widely. Remember, if you are using a patch with an amp envelope with a slow attack time and you play quickly then your effective output signal level is going to be lower than a patch with a rapid attack time. I use an M-Audio Axiom 61 to play it or my Kurzweil K2600 SX since both can act as fine midi controllers. I always record the midi alongside the Blofeld audio. Why would you not? I have the desktop unit so I need to use a midi controller anyway so it costs me nothing to record it. Waldorf has said directly that the reason they made the output level low is to provide some level of safety because of the possibility of creating dangerous output levels.

As far as VST's not working, that is usually a problem with the maker of the VST not with Sonar. Sadly, my Blofeld VST does not work at all under Sonar 64 bit but it doesn't work under ANY Windows 7 64 bit software so that is just the way it goes. I have my iPad 2 with MidiTouch on it and a template for the Blofeld that I can use to tweak in real time. I am HUGE fan of ins files in Sonar. If you don't have a VST at least you can select patches and browse them intelligently. Otherwise it is frustrating.  Sadly, my Venom does NOT have a VST available for it yet but it does have the Vyzor editor which is pretty powerful. I am crossing my fingers the VST is available soon cause it would be great to tweak that out with Sonar automation controls.

The Devilfish TB-303 can make some truly spectacular sounds but is a pain to use. I have been hooking it up to my Future-Retro 777 because it has a midi-CV converter so it allows more control. That device has tremendous resonant filter capabilities and you can get settings where you can get wild spikes. Once you get going on it and start twisting the filters in real time you never know what is going to happen! Once again, a major reason to have some sort of limiter BEFORE the PC.

I agree totally with Fast Biker Boy that recording the midi from your keyboards (assuming that is possible depending on vintage) with a patch that is close and then tweaking is a great way to go. One thing I would make sure of is to make sure that you are careful about sending data like aftertouch from the synth if you are truly not using it. Some synths can respond to this and it is useful but it is a LOT of data to swallow. A decent controller can give you the option to filter this stuff out for you. I don't use it so it is not an issue but I figured I would let you know. I do get a lot of data generated from using the mod and pitch bend wheels like you would expect if you are playing a rapid lead and are getting a little psycho with it ;-)

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#43
Jeff Evans
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Re:How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :) 2011/09/10 18:17:48 (permalink)
I am someone that uses a fairly powerful external setup along the virtual synths. I have got 6 hardware devices running externally. Sonar does a good job of handling external hardware or I have not had any major issues.

You need a decent midi interface and one with 8 or so midi ports. Addressing several external synths on the one midi port is not cool and will result in sloppy timing. You need every external instrument you own on its own midi port then timing gets way better.

So adrian4u Here are your points addressed.

First:
- no wavedrawing of incoming audio - I have quite good computer but I don't want to record audio from synths over and over again every time I'l change few notes

If you have got enough external synth power you never need to convert to audio until the last minute, you simply address those instruments and keep changing the music until they are playing right. You don't even have to convert to audio either, those synths can be just brought into the mix during mixdown although I do think you should convert to audio for other reasons.

Second:
- no INPUT GAIN - I do pre-mixing during composing - and some of instruments have lowgain output and no possibility to rise gain on Edirol interface with line inputs

One needs a decent mixer if you have got any number of external instruments connected. Audio interfaces don't cut it I am afraid. A digital mixer offers tons of input channels, all the gain control you are after, zero latency monitoring, effects processing and A to D conversion as well. Can't beat that!

Third:
- this "funny" MIDI issue with Korg editors/plugins - believe me - they are great, and using just *.ins files instead is like walking in line instead of walk ina a park and choosng your way. Or - you can use editor, but you can't use your keyboard as controller.

I tend to use editors stand alone although I did get the odd one to work inside Sonar while all the other stuff was happening as well. But I think you need to treat sound making and synth patch editing as a separate issue really.

Fourth:
- MIDI latency compensation issue - no comments - there's no compensation

If you are using a mixer then this is less of an issue except Sonar midi timing goes off IMO when heavy audio processing is going on. Studio One and Logic (and others I assume) do not do this. They (audio and midi timing) are independant as they should be.

post edited by Jeff Evans - 2011/09/11 20:48:19

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