How do you work with HARDWARE synth? Share your experience PLZ :)

Sory, there's something wrong with text formatting.....

In Sonar a hardware synth is the same as any audio source from outside Sonar.

What I like about Sonar is its instrument definition files that allow one to find a patch quickly and know what it is.

I don't add FX to an audio track until I have recorded the audio. I don't see any need to either.

I have a drum machine with instr def file a sound module id and an XV 5080 with a custom made id. The XV 5080 has a lot of user patches on it and banks added via a memory stick plus add on cards. In other words I have a lot of sounds on it unit that I use on a regular basis. For me Sonar works just find with it and the others as well. I do like Cubase's way of using its patch scrips which are like instr def files but are more flexable. Outside of that I have found no other DAW that supports hardware synths as well as Sonar does.

So what are your problems using hardware synths exactly? I'm a little lost. ACT and MIDI learn has nothing to do with using external synths, control surfaces yes, synths no.

First:
- no wavedrawing of incoming audio - I have quite good computer but I don't want to record audio from synths over and over again every time I'l change few notes

Second:
- no INPUT GAIN - I do pre-mixing during composing - and some of instruments have lowgain output and no possibility to rise gain on Edirol interface with line inputs

Third:
- this "funny" MIDI issue with Korg editors/plugins - believe me - they are great, and using just *.ins files instead is like walking in line instead of walk ina a park and choosng your way. Or - you can use editor, but you can't use your keyboard as controller.

Fourth:
- MIDI latency compensation issue - no comments - there's no compensation

It looks like Sonar determines your way of work:
- first compose and do it for 100%, then REECORD, and do it only when you're sure.
In the end - do something with sound.

I don't like work this way, cause it kills creativity, so I look for ideas, how to go thru these weaknes of "number 1 of hall of shame" DAW.

I have used Cubase SX1 to 3, although there things to like about Cubase there other things I do like about Cubase. Sonar works find for me. I don't need a waveform being drawn when I am just listening to my synths.

Do you need one when you listen to a softsynth?

As for a DAW, any DAW, determining a way of working duh!

I have not seen any problem with MIDI latency with Sonar.

As for other problems you have Sonar that is why there are other DAWs.

Sonic Cell has limited capabilities of editing and creating, Korgs - are very creative, and that's why there are veryy good written editors.
Edditor allows you not only to organize p-atches and performances, but EDIT all the parameters, save them etc. And it should work with Sonar like "shadow-thru" plugin which works between Sonar and instrument.
I don't know why - in Cubase it works without problems, and with Sonar - only WITH problems.

I'm not going to start arguing about what's better Korg or Roland but I'd hardly call the Sonic Cell 'limited'. It can create any sound you wish, and is fully editable on all parameters, waveforms, etc, etc. It's a full synth module, fully expandable via SRX expansion slots, effectively a Fantom without the keyboard.

I use it for comparison because I can use the VST within Sonar to edit anything on the Sonic Cell, and call back patches etc. but I choose not to. That's not a limitation of the synth or it's software, but my choice. I assumed the Korg works on a similar principal.

It's impossible to use Sonar as a mixer in the same way an outboard mixer can be used. I'm not saying it's compulsory to have a mixer, just that it makes life much easier when using lots of outboard gear. A point proven by the fact you seem to be having several problems without one.

FastBikerBoy


 Point 2. Input gain is always an external/interface issue. It has to be because it needs to be done before the audio reaches the converters.

completely agree.

adrian4u


 Especially, that for now I'm into looking for 88-key hammer action keyboard - and I don't know if it'll be better to buy Numa Nano for 850$ or Alesis Fusion 8 HD for 1200$. And what gear to sell to buy this keyboard

get the roland RD700XX series, the best action ever.

Adrian,

I agree it would be nice to have an one step external synth set up in SONAR.  Like the softsynth one that you could split out.  But of course there would be complaints if SONAR didnt' know you decided to use mutliple outs - like a drum machine.

As to monitoring w/ effects - that is doable, but subject to latency.  It is a hardware issue, not SONAR.

The same with "playing" hardware.  If your synth etc. outputs midi from its controller, it should recorded.  Using software controls to control your external hardware (if that is what you are asking) seems a rather klunky way to do things.  anytime you start tacking on more variables things get dicey.

I hope some of the other posts help with your problems.  me, I just play the external synth like I want it to sound and record that.  If I need to change something, I overdub it and splice it in.  It was harder to do on tape.

@

AT - I'm sorry, maybe it's because friday afternoon here, but I can't get clue from your post - especially first sentence ;)

about the rest - I hope you're using synths a lot and you load banks / edit voices.
What with *.ins files then? What about names? And answer to yourself - is it more comfortable using jus 240x64LCD or 1024x768 editor window to see and edit sound parameters?

Moreover - Cubase and Ableton have great "invention" - COLOURS. You can freeely change track colours, clips colours, and it really helps to don't feel messy and confused when your project grows.

 
You can do this in X1, from the Inspector - select Track or Clip as appropriate and amongst other things you can choose foreground/background colours.
 
It's years since I used Cubase, but I find Live's inability to record all 128 MIDI CC numbers makes it less than ideal with hardware synths. Sonar also handles NRPNs far better than Live. Truth is, no DAW is perfect. Most are proficient but all have weaknesses somewhere. In the end which you choose depends on what you do, how you work and how much money you can spend.
 

I do external audio monitoring thru Sonar - I use it as a mixer with insert effects, buses etc. I don't really need another mixer.

 
I was wondering if you were doing that.
 
Is the problem you are having that some synths aren't loud enough compared with others when monitored via Sonar (rather than them not having enough level post-recording, which should be corrected post-recording)?
 
If so, then turning up the track volume or gain on a track set to echo should (unless my memory's very wrong) increase the volume of that track in Sonar's "output monitor mix" (what you hear while monitoring).
 
This won't increase the volume the audio is recorded at, but that can be dealt with afterwards.
 
For what it's worth, my hardware synths are mostly sub-mixed (via a Mackie mixer) into the line inputs of a UA-101, with other UA-101 line inputs being used for other things.
 
I monitor via the UA-101 directly (controlled by the software mixer in the driver), not via Sonar to remove any latency issues. Prior to recording I'll use some hardware effects I've acquired over the years, then on recording I'll either stick with the hardware or record the synth dry and then add processing in X1 if needed.
 
As for slight discrepancies (a very few milliseconds) between the start of a MIDI note and the point the audio starts you'll get that with any hardware synth setup. Synths take time to react to MIDI, plus there's the slight delay while the MIDI leaves X1 and reaches the synth. Not to mention patches that don't produce sound at note-on but have an initial delay in their envelope.
 
Sonar can be set to correct for a discrepancy in preferences, but if you've more than one synth that isn't very helpful. Unless by some miracle all your synths take exactly the same time to respond to MIDI - which is very unlikely.
 
My answer is to accept that as a fact of life and slide the audio over until it matches the MIDI. Takes all of a couple of seconds a track.

I've just tested my system again to make sure that I stated facts correctly.

I can most definitely load the VST for the synth, make changes with it and play it on a channel assigned to a MIDI track. On a different MIDI track on a different channel I can control the patch via the Bank/Patch selectors on the track.

I have discovered that the other display does not update to reflect changes. So if I change channel 1 to Bank 1 patch 65 via the track selector those changes are not reflected on the VST until I perform a read or sync.

Similarly if I change bank/patches via the VST on channel 2 it is not reflected in the track selector drop down box until a write or sync.

As I said earlier you should be able to use both at once. I use the VST if I'm editing patches or using the performance mode of the Sonic. If I'm just bank & patch changing I use the drop downs - that works best for me. I'd be surprised if the Korg setup doesn't work in a similar way.

FBB,

the main disadvantage with Korg editors and Sonar is, that you have to leave MIDI INPUT of the instrument "unchecked" in Sonar's Preferences/MIDI.
This is only way to make editor "see" instrument response.
result is, that you can edit patches/combis etc using editor (editor is used as VST SYNTH), but you can't use your instrument's keyboard as controller.  Offcourse if you put MIDI notes on this VST/editor track, instrument plays it back, but you can't use instrumrnt's keyboard or knobs to record notes in Sonar.
Weird, but that's the way it works in Sonar.

And - more weird - there's no such problem with Cubase and the same editor - MIDI IN checked, instrument works as a MIDI controller, editor works as a VST Synth and everyone is happy.
So I assume, that this isn't Editor problem. But so far I can't figure out what da heck the problem is, I can only uppose that something with MIDI routing.

I spent over an hour today trying to set up and make it work properly in Sonar - without results....
In meantime I got some issues with ACT, so things go funny and more funny...

Back to the topic - I use "predelay" on MIDI tracks to synhronise "beat", so it's not strange for me - I know that MIDI communicates have delay, and instruments have their own delay too :)
I still wondering about - will the Sonar developers add in future some changes allowing visual monitoring of any incoming audio (Wave drawing) and Input GAIN (in hardware mixers - "pre Volume knob" to name it more friendly)....

And I'm wondering what's up with MIDI "transparency" issue  (I can't name it, sorry, English isn't my language) that doesn't allow this editors-VSTsynths work as they should.
Everything seems to be set up correctly but I don't know - maybe issue is with "splitting" MIDI signal or something....

John - I try to figure out what's wrong with Korg editor (and please note that in any DAW you can use it as a "VST synth", with audio incoming from audio inputs) or with Sonar.
As I mentioned above:
- if you check MIDI IN from M50 (or other Korg instruments with dedicated editor like this: microX, microStation, M3), editor doesn't communicate with synth (like it has no feedback from synth).
- if you leave MIDI IN box unchecked - everything works fine, but you can't use synth's keyboard as a MIDI controller.

But this issue isn't appears in Cubase, so I think it's something with Sonar.

Theoretically after adding this "VST synth" with "midi out" checked in options everything should work fine (M50 editor MIDI OUTS are appearing on list of available outputs, on MIDI tracks in Sonar) but it doesn't.
I'm out of ideas......
will try to check how it looks exactly in Cubase

X Ray is what CW calls their way to look through windows on top of other windows. It makes the window on top transparent.