MikeRusso
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10
- Joined: 2013/10/22 07:02:54
- Location: Southwest Florida
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/04 09:02:59
(permalink)
ramtin
Dear Friends,
Last night after applying Jeff advices, I reached to very interesting conclusion! I had transferred Midi options Item by Item to PC By using Midox .The result was as fallow:
1) “ALL Part” 118377 Bytes
2) “Sequencer” 73461 Bytes
3) “Composer (style)” 37817 Bytes
4) “Sounds” 4241 Bytes
5) “Panel memory 2936 Bytes
- The first thing that drew my attention was that, the number of Bytes which were received by PC either through MIDOX or Cake walk was same for each Part. For Example when I recorded Composer Part as Sysex file the number of bytes were 73461 Bytes received through MIDOX or Cake walk.
- The no of Bytes was not depended to the data which was saved in instrument memory on each part.
- for All above 5 Items,( “ALL Part”, “Sequencer” , “Composer (style)” “Sounds” and “Panel memory“ ) when Sysex were recorded the first 3 lines were the same as fallow :
F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7
F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7
F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7
- when I was sending back the Sysex file from Midiox to Keyboard, I observed that the progress of receiving files by Keyboard are different for each part .It means that the heavy files were sooner canceled in compare with light bytes.
For example when I was going to send back “ALL Parts” with 118377 Bytes The “Receiving - - - - - - -“ Massage after 10% of progress was canceled in The Keyboard LCD and then “Receive Error “massage was appeared. Wherever, the same Process happened for “Panel memory “with 2936 Bytes, after 80% of progress.
The above observations, motivated me, to make more attempt to send back “Panel memory “with 2936 Bytes through Midiox and increase the progress to 100%.On the next attempts the progress decrease to 40% but I continued the try and finally in 14th or 15th attempt, the progress completed and “Receive completed” massage appeared on keyboard LCD screen for the first time! I checked the panel memory.
The backup was correctly transferred. And completely worked .Congratulation! But still I cannot transfer
Style and Sequence and….
The result, at least prove that the file had been completely sent from Keyboard to PC, it means that no corruption has happened when data was sending from key board to PC. And the cable is able to transmit the small files between instrument and PC. However, the following questions are not solved in my mind.
1) Why the progress result is such different for a unique part? I.e. for transferring file to “Panel memory“with 2936 Bytes. Why I was able to completely send it after 15th attempt?
2) Is there any meaningful relation between Transferring data and volume of the file?
3) Whether Technics SX KN 1000 need some delay to process and locate the SYSX dumps for heavy files?
I believe that we are too close to the final answer and need the Idea.
Have you checked the configuration setting in the SysEx View and Scratchpad? From the help file - - - "3) When sending Sysex, some gear needs a break after the end of a SysEx message (signaled by F7) to process that message before it can handle another message. Since some messages, like loading an entire bank, frequently are composed of smaller messages, your gear might not be able to handle a composite message at full speed. By checking the Delay After F7 box and specifying a time in milliseconds, any composite messages will wait the specified delay before sending the next message. Or, if you just want to break a large composite SysEx message into individual chunks and don't need the delay, you can check the box but specify a delay of 0."
Sonar X2, Sonar X3 (64 bit), Windows 7 - 64 bit, i7-3770 Processor, 8 GB RAM, 2 each 1TB HDD, ZOOM R24, Behringer UCA202, MOTU micro lite, Korg nanoKONTROL2, Korg DW-8000, Korg Triton 61, Korg Triton LE 88, Roland D-110, Yamaha CS1x
|
bvideo
Max Output Level: -58 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1707
- Joined: 2006/09/02 22:20:02
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/04 10:26:39
(permalink)
Hi ramtin. Congratulations on showing that
1. The PC->keyboard transmission is different every time.
2. The keyboard->PC transmission is correct (for at least one data part).
3. The short messages at the beginning of the data are not the problem.
Item #1 could point to timing issues in the software for transmission from the PC. But since you have used two different programs and you've tried adjusting the timings in express 8, I now suspect the midi cable or transmitter circuit to be poor quality, totally a hardware issue. (I'm referring to the baud rate required on a midi cable, 31250 +/- 1%.)
|
ramtin
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 81
- Joined: 2013/10/19 02:41:41
- Location: Iran
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/05 01:51:32
(permalink)
Hi Bvideo, Mike and Jeff,As you are informed, I have already adjusted the setting in cakewalk 8 as well as Midiox .Even I had changed the buffer setting to 256 Bytes using 16, 32 and 64 Number .Also I used after F7 delay but could not reached on a logical conclusion.I am also suspecting that problem is from poor quality of midi cable interface, But still two question is unsolved in My Mind. - If the problem is because of poor quality of the cable, How data clearly and speedy comes from keyboard to PC with no problem? And why the problem occurs just at the time of receiving Data by keyboard?
(the data are same and the cable is same. If cable cannot afforded to transmit the data at the time of receiving, how it has no problem at the time of sending?) 2. Why I have not the same problem when midi tracks are playing back in cakewalk and it is heard from keyboard speakers using Same Midi cable? (maybe the answer for last question is the volume of the data per milli seconds which are not as big as Sysex dump)
Anyhow, I will look for some reliable MIDI-USB cable such as M-AUDIO or ROLAND Branded to check the case. And if anybody has a logical answer for the first question please guide me Thanks a lot for your kind favor
|
bvideo
Max Output Level: -58 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1707
- Joined: 2006/09/02 22:20:02
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/05 09:39:42
(permalink)
Hi ramtin,
At this time it is just a guess whether your midi interface is the problem. So here are some guesses about your questions:
#1 there are two wires, receive and transmit. Maybe one is defective. OR... there is a bit of circuitry at each end of both cables in both the PC and the KB. Each has a circuit for receive and a circuit for transmit, and also some circuitry in common. There is some possibility for worse performance in one direction than the other. The PC end's clock may be off by more than 1% of the required clock rate (31250) or supply insufficient current. Since we don't know the brand of the h/w we don't have a good way to google for other people's experience with it. We are guessing whether the two ends of the KB->PC cable can be compatible while the PC->KB is not, but I think it is possible.
#2 best answer is the one provided by you. You already found that the PC transmit path can supply a couple thousand bytes correctly in a short time. 2000 bytes would be good for 300 to 500 error-free notes. An error in the PC's transmit clock rate would be a good explanation for this syndrome.
Bill B.
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/05 09:42:59
(permalink)
I don't know but it could need a machine ID to receive the sysex data.
|
bvideo
Max Output Level: -58 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1707
- Joined: 2006/09/02 22:20:02
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/05 09:56:42
(permalink)
John,
Yes, that would be the 2nd, 4th, and 5th items in the sysex header posted in #19. If any of those are corrupted during the PC->KB transfer, the KB will either ignore and drop it or report an error. Some KB's offer yet another identifier, sometimes called "channel", that can be used to distinguish different KB's of the same model on the same midi cable, but the description in post #19 doesn't mention it.
|
ramtin
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 81
- Joined: 2013/10/19 02:41:41
- Location: Iran
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/06 07:17:07
(permalink)
Hi Mike jeff and bVideo, and welcome to John , joined the topic,
I am absolutely agreed with Bvideo Idea,because when I Checked the cables found that :
The cable which transferring data from keyboard to PC was ok,
But, the PC to Key board cable was defective. How I got it? I will tell you. Yesterday I checked some other cable that one of them was M-Audio Uno. I tried to restore the sysex files to my keyboard, which I had already recorded in my PC. The result was unbelievable! All the Items such as ( “ALL Part”, “Sequencer” , “Composer (style)” “Sounds” and “Panel memory“ ) transferred completely and” received completed” Massage was appeared on the screen. Then I tried to do Send and receive both by new cable .I wondered that sending was done but receiving faced to error. I found that M-Audio Ono had problem on sending the files which received by itself. Then I decided to try with combination of tow cable. It means that, using 15 pines midi cable (the old one) for keyboard to PC and M-Audio ono usb-midi cable (the new one) to restore Sysex to Keyboard. There was neither problem in sending nor in receiving. Thanks god! Finally, by combination of the cables I got to the desire conclusion. But still I was not satisfied. I was searching why M-Audio cannot return the files which itself had already sent to keyboard? I found that number of the bytes was more than the bytes of files which were received by old cable (approximately between 3 to 10 bytes more). On that time I thought it may be because of delay on sending the file and caused to put some “0” in the sysex file. When I read the Bvideo post I learned that it is because of clock of Windows. The problem is solved and I learned many Things about Sysex. And more important, is that now, I or anybody who read this topic carefully. can afforded to get backup from his/herkeyboard directly to PC and is able to restore it at any the time needed, Thanks all so much. I have to describe that without your helps I was not able to handle the case!
However the task is over and problem is solved, But a question is unsolved in my mind.
I separately tested M-Audio Uno In Windows XP. It had no problem In both sending and receiving the Sysex Files. But when I used it with Windows 7 64 bit SP1, at the time of receiving data from the keyboard, number of bytes were increasing. Why it was not happening in Windows XP and is there any solution to solve the conflict in Windows 7 64 bit SP1?
|
Jeff Evans
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5139
- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
- Location: Ballarat, Australia
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/06 07:30:41
(permalink)
Hi ramtin that is really great. I am glad you seem to have got it going now. It is also important to keep any midi cables relatively short as well between the Technics and the interface if possible. Very long midi leads can also cause some errors in some circumstances. Not sure why XP is OK and Win 7 64 bit is not. That is obviously another story. Are there any later Service packs for Win 7. If there are I would be updating them. MidiOx is also handy if you don't want to go to the trouble of booting up your sequencer. It is great for just receiving, storing and sending files back. This is the single Midi USB interface I would have gone for: http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/1157 I have never had an issue with any of these.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/11/06 15:33:14
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
|
bvideo
Max Output Level: -58 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1707
- Joined: 2006/09/02 22:20:02
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/06 09:30:58
(permalink)
☼ Best Answerby ramtin 2013/11/07 01:25:26
ramtin, Congratulations! By now you have learned tons about midi and sysex. Your perseverance has overcome two defective MIDI interfaces. This message is on the M--audio site: QUOTE: Note: M-Audio has identified a defect in a manufacturing run of its popular MIDISPORT UNO 1x1 MIDI interfaces. The defect affects only the MIDI input and causes the MIDISPORT Uno to distort incoming MIDI data resulting in random notes, inaccurate note on/off messages, as well as pitch bend. The following Serial Number range of USB MIDISPORT Uno’s is affected: From: S/N 31805709001 To: S/N 45805704080 UNQUOTE Link Bill B
|
ramtin
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 81
- Joined: 2013/10/19 02:41:41
- Location: Iran
- Status: offline
Re: How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?
2013/11/07 01:25:06
(permalink)
Dear Bvideo,Thanks for the explanation,
I have also good news.Yesterday,by chance I find a second hand M_Audio Uno.I did connect it to my laptop supported by Windows 7, 64 BIt, SP1. I tried to send and receive the Sysex files using Sonar X1.The transmission performed either send or receive less than 15 seconds! Unbelievable!The rate of restoring was less than restore from floppy drive and CD Rom.Therefore I paid 40 $ and purchased it.However I did not checked the serial number (because i didn't get your massage on that time) but I am insure that it is out of the defective range.
This problem has solved and you may not know that how much it was valuable for me.Because, before I joint to this forum, everybody were trying to disappoint me but I believed that there is a way and your advices as well as other friend's supported me to hit the target. Thanks for your all supports. I am going to Start another topic in Sonar X forum.The subject of the Topic is "how to change Style to Sysex" It will be my pleasure if you as well as other friends accompain me on this new challenge!
All the best
your sincerely
Ramtin
|