How using sonar SYSEX (system exclusive) to send style, sound,etc from PC to Keyboard?

Hi,
 Dear Friends,
As before explained, I had connected My old keyboard “Technics SX KN 1000” to PC “windows Xp” via midi cable, using Cakewalk Express 8. As my keyboard has been not equipped by any external memory such as floppy drive, CD rom, flash memory ,USB flash ,…I have to use SYSEX (system exclusive) to send a backup of Styles, sound and anything which I had set on my keyboard and ultimately save as SYX extension using sonar in My PC for future needs.
I have no problem to send the data which are allowed. And send from the keyboard wherever easily receive them through Sonar by syx Extension. But when I load the syx file in Sonar, which recently has received it from the keyboard, and going to send it back to the keyboard, the keyboard cannot receive the file and a massage is appeared on the keyboard screen ”Receive Error”. However, in Sonar, there appear “send” windows, which show the sending process is done. It does mean that the data is sending from Sonar but the keyboard cannot receive it for a reason that I do not know it. I would be thankful if anybody who is professional or experienced on the mentioned, help me to solve the matter.
Regards
Ramtin       

Have a look at these parameters in the TTSseq.ini file. I think you will need to throttle the sysex data rate sent by Sonar to your synth.
 
SysxSendDelayMsecs=n
 
SysxDelayAfterF7=n
 
SysxSendPacketSize=n
 
The number of sysex buffers is only for Sonar to receive from your synth, so if you think Sonar didn't receive the whole thing, increase that.

Dear js516 
thanks for your reply,I checked the number of buffers in Cakewalk Express 8 and it was 256.

unfortunately  I have not any SysEx librarian for the KN1000 to verify that the dump is valid.If you have it,could i ask you to share it with me to check whether dose it work?
 
Dear Bvideo
I check TTSseq in Cakewalk Express 8.The parameters which you mentioned ( SysxSendDelayMsecs=n, SysxDelayAfterF7=n, SysxSendPacketSize=n) dose not existed in the file.all the parameters which is inside the TTSseq are as follow:
[Options]
AutoConfigureMidi=0
SysxEchoEnabled=0
PumpDataMsec=500
LocalOnPort=-1
SysxRecordBuffers=256
SysxRecordEnabled=1
[MIDI Input Devices]
MaxInPort=-1
[MIDI Output Devices]
0=Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth
MaxOutPort=0

ramtin,
Those cakewalk files don't always contain every parameter supported. Missing ones just use defaults. If express 8 supports those parameters, you might find the defaults and a description of what the parameters do in the manual or help file. That will help you estimate what parameters to add to slow down sysex transmission for your synth. Some trial and error may be useful to find slow enough values that don't slow you down too much. In Sonar, the manual actually discusses values to try if the synthesizer reports midi data errors.
 
The support files for express 8 are non-responsive at the moment, but have a look at this support page for pro audio.
 
Try adding these:
SysxDelayAfterF7=1 (default was 0)

SysxSendPacketSize=64 (default was 1024)

SysxSendDelayMsecs=60   (then try higher numbers)

Dear ,
actually I have added the following setting to TTSseq in cakewalk express 8 but unfortunately, when I transferred the Sysex to keyboard (however I had recorded it from my keyboard to cakewalk express 8) the "receive error" was appeared.

That is discouraging.  Does email to tech support help at all? Also, do you see an [Options] section in TTSseq.ini? Those parameters go in the [Options] section. As js516 suggested, it is also possible that the transmission from the synth to the PC had some errors.
 
Today I see that the support pages for express 8 are responding. Here is one that covers the sysex parameters (for "Cakewalk", which sounds like a generic document that should apply to many different products).

ramtin - I had a similar problem with my Yamaha CS1x. When using the SysEx menu - Sonar would receive the SysEx file, but the CS1x would not accept a transmission from Sonar. Here is what worked for me. I set up a MIDI track in Sonar and recorded a SysEx dump to that track at a tempo of 80 BPM. I had to start the dump manually from the keyboard as the track was recording. Play back the track and the CS1x received the SysEx data.
 
It may be worth a try...
 
Good luck!
Mike

ramtin
Dear bvideo,
 

1. I checked the support page, but unfortunately it is not available more for Cakewalk express 8,
2. TTSseq in Cakewalk express 8 is included of the fallowing line.

[Options]
AutoConfigureMidi=0
SysxEchoEnabled=0
PumpDataMsec=500
LocalOnPort=-1
SysxRecordBuffers=256
SysxRecordEnabled=1

 // the new lines should go here in the options section
// (be sure to exit and restart the program after making changes to the file)
SysxDelayAfterF7=1 
SysxSendPacketSize=64
SysxSendDelayMsecs=60

[MIDI Input Devices]
MaxInPort=-1
[MIDI Output Devices]
0=Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth
MaxOutPort=0
And I have added the below lines that you recommended before:
SysxDelayAfterF7=1 
SysxSendPacketSize=64
SysxSendDelayMsecs=60
   3.  I tried to send and received the sysex file by another software which is called “GNMIDI”,But the result was same.It means that receiving by PC through “GNMIDI”was completely done, but sending back the Technics KN 1000 was not done and again “receive error “ massage was appeared on the keyboard LCD.
  4.  I checked the manual of Technics KN 1000,there was written that if sysex file comes from other instrument except of Technics KN 1000 then the “receive error “ massage will be appeared on the keyboard LCD.

You probably don't have to worry about that statement because they are talking about other kinds of instruments, and they will have their own sysex formats, so it is natural they wouldn't work with another kind. With the right software, a PC should work. Quite likely the midiox program mentioned by Jeff Evans will do a good job of playing back the sysex in just the same timing that your synth needs.

  5.  I think that I have to change some code in Sysex but I don’t have information about these codes.
  6.  How can I email to support tech? Have you any email address? unfortunately my keyboard is not by company producer as the company is not continue its activity on keyboards.

The email support contact for cakewalk is here, found starting from the support link on the cakewalk home page. Hopefully they could tell you whether those parameters are supported in express 8. As for #5, I hope not!

 
But I believe that there is a way to solve the problem and if it is found, it will be a grate opportunity for me to use the old instrument with new technologies. 

Thanks to Mike and Jeff for more ideas.

Hi ramtin, I hope you find your answer. I suggest starting with my suggestion first and run with Midi Ox. After all you want to do is to be able to send and store and receive midi data dumps and Midi Ox allows you to do exactly just that. You should not and you do not have to get involved in anyway with the actual Sysex data itself. Too hard and totally unnecessary for the purposes you are wanting to achieve.
 
Midi OX does allow you to write your own sysex dumps, alter existing data and do a lot in that respect but it also just allows you to receive and send it back too making it very very easy to use. Like I said if you send it a dump from your Technics, it captures it perfectly and send it back exactly the way the Technics is expecting it.

Dear Mike,
Thanks a lot for your following. Actually I had tried “MIdiox”, but finally result was the same. I have record SYSEX from Keyboard into MIDIOX and the following commands are the first 3 lines which are recorded by MIDIOX.
F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7
F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7
F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7
As you can find the above commands which received by MIDIOX are same and at the time of sending each line, initially there appears “receiving *……….” Massage on the LCD, but the process does not complete and “error receive” Massage is appeared on the keyboard LCD.It happens 3 times (after sending each line) and then for next commands nothing happens on LCD screen, however MIDIOX sending process is showing. I have brought 2 paragraphs for instance (the full massage is 37814 bytes).
As I have investigated the Value in HEX, has the meaning as below:
F0 : Exclusive status,
50 : Technics ID
21 : Individual data command
01 : KN
10 : Model 1000 (Should be)
01 : data size (Should be)
F7 : End of Exclusive
 
F0 50 26 01 10 01 02 00 05 14 00 10 0B 14 00 15 00 16 0A 10 00 16 05 1B 00 11 00 10 00 10 0A 15 0A 15 0A 15 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 01 10 02 10 03 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 02 11 00 10 08 14 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 6A F7
F0 50 26 01 10 01 02 01 00 10 00 10 01 10 02 10 03 10 04 10 07 10 01 18 00 12 08 15 00 10 00 10 0F 17 0F 17 0F 17 0F 17 08 12 00 10 00 14 00 10 00 15 06 10 00 10 00 10 00 14 00 10 00 15 06 10 08 13 00 10 00 14 00 10 00 15 06 10 01 14 00 10 00 14 00 10 00 15 06 10 0D 12 0D 12 03 16 0C 16 02 17 0D 12 0D 12 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 05 10 00 10 06 10 07 10 08 10 09 10 07 10 01 18 00 12 08 15 00 10 00 10 0F 17 0F 17 0F 17 0F 17 08 12 00 10 00 14 00 10 00 15 06 10 00 10 00 10 00 14 00 10 01 62 F7
And the followings are the last commands.
F0 50 7E 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 07 18 00 31 F7
F0 50 27 7E F7
F0 50 28 7E F7
 
Now what is your Idea

Dear Jeff,
Unfortunately,I reply your advise to mike by mistake. sorry for the misunderstanding.
I had applied your advice and the result is as I had explained in last post.I hope that the explanation can be helpful to find where is the problem.
 

Hi there ramtin, I am sorry to hear that MidiOx did not work but I will check the help for MidiOx and just make sure there is not something silly that is preventing this for working for you. It should for sure.
 
Are you on the right page with the Technics to receive the sysex dump. Sounds like you are.

Hi ramtin, Before you send a system exclusive dump you can specify what you are going to transmit
eg ALL, COMP, SEQ, SOUND MEM, PANEL
What are you attempting to send. Might be good to just try something like the SEQ (sequencer) or COMP (Composer) to start with. It might be one of the other things that is causing the trouble.
 
I have checked out the MidiOx help and I dont seem to see anything there that you may be doing wrong. But try sending and receiving just one of the above things first to see if it works. It might work with COMP and SEQ but not SOUND MEM or PANEL etc..
 
You dont really need to send sounds because they are already in the machine and unless you are editing them etc it might be best to not include SOUND MEM in the transmit dump. ALL is going to include the SOUND MEM so try SEQ or COMP first and see what happens. PANEL might be causing the problems too.

Dear Bvideo,

1. I found the layout by searching the web and found it for kn2000.Then mach it to KN1000 and guess some parts
2. My cable is an old one that supported by joystick connector.(with no brand).If I be sure that the problem is from my cable I have to budget 100 $ and buy a good midi usb cable.But I am not certain.I also suspect that there is something wrong in my keyboard.I have to added that I have used my keyboard as midi controller and and record midi tracks in cakewalk with no problem.this matter has bean create a consistency which I can not find that what is the exact problem.   

But in one issue I am agree with you.I believe that the problem is on receiving specialty first 3 massages. maybe they are not recorded completely.
As Jeff has advised let me try to transfer massages from keyboard to PC by choosing separately  "comp(style)", "sequnse", "sound" and "ALL".Then compare the first massages from the different choices.
I will come back with the conclusion.

Dear Friends,
Last night after applying Jeff advices, I reached to very interesting conclusion! I had transferred Midi options Item by Item to PC By using Midox .The result was as fallow:
1)      “ALL Part”                    118377 Bytes
2)      “Sequencer”                   73461 Bytes
3)      “Composer (style)”         37817  Bytes
4)      “Sounds”                        4241  Bytes
5)      “Panel memory                 2936 Bytes
 

1. The first thing that drew my attention was that, the number of Bytes which were received by PC either through MIDOX or Cake walk was same for each Part. For Example when I recorded Composer Part as Sysex file the number of bytes were 73461 Bytes received through MIDOX or Cake walk.
2. The no of Bytes was not depended to the data which was saved in instrument memory on each part.
3. for All above 5 Items,( “ALL Part”, “Sequencer” ,  “Composer (style)” “Sounds” and “Panel memory“ ) when Sysex were recorded  the first 3 lines were the same as fallow :

                                F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7
                                F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7
                                F0 50 21 01 10 01 F7 

1. when I was sending back the Sysex file from Midiox to Keyboard, I observed that the progress of receiving files by Keyboard are different for each part .It means that the heavy files were sooner canceled in compare with light bytes.

For example when I was going to send back “ALL Parts” with 118377 Bytes The “Receiving - - - - - - -“ Massage after 10% of progress was canceled in The Keyboard LCD and then “Receive Error “massage was appeared. Wherever, the same Process happened for “Panel memory “with 2936 Bytes, after 80% of progress.
The above observations, motivated me, to make more attempt to send back “Panel memory “with 2936 Bytes through Midiox and increase the progress to 100%.On the next attempts the progress decrease to 40% but I continued the try and finally in 14^th or 15^th attempt, the progress completed and “Receive completed” massage appeared on keyboard LCD screen for the first time! I checked the panel memory.
The backup was correctly transferred. And completely worked .Congratulation! But still I cannot transfer
Style and Sequence and….
The result, at least prove that the file had been completely sent from Keyboard to PC, it means that no corruption has happened when data was sending from key board to PC. And the cable is able to transmit the small files between instrument and PC. However, the following questions are not solved in my mind.
1)      Why the progress result is such different for a unique part? I.e. for transferring file to “Panel memory“with 2936 Bytes. Why I was able to completely send it after 15^th attempt?
2)      Is there any meaningful relation between Transferring data and volume of the file?
3)      Whether Technics SX KN 1000 need some delay to process  and locate the SYSX dumps for heavy files?
 
I believe that we are too close to the final answer and need the Idea.