I don't think I did. I wasn't replying to you.
WST3 stated"I don't think that they do anything that can't be done in CAL, which is why I never got around to purchasing them in the past. "
 
I disagree wiith that statement, that's all. After you use a plug like FMP Human you get a feel for what's good and what's not. You save presets, etc. I have presets based on the type of feel I want. Have you tried or even looked at the plug? Download it, it's free.
I agree that whatever works for the individual is good-The op was asking about Humanizing.
I use plenty of cals, I love them.
It's all good.

That may be so-But I don't over use it!
Thank You

Oh? I pretty much use very little movement. Using franks midi plug I just move vel & notes ever so slightly. I try to set it so I have the control and not make it a random, do what you will adjustment. That would certainly be over using it. I must admit I don't use it aas much as I used to. I enter my drum beats using a midi controller (I'm a guitar player) I start with the kick, then layer the snare on top, etc etc. Sometimes If I missed what I was going for, I will move things a bit with a cal or FMPlugs.
When I first became awaee of this "humanize" thing I definitely applied it too much. But after 20+ years of midi programming I have not needed it near as much. Just another tool should I need it.
 

When I replied to this thread earlier, post #6, I immediately turned the term "humanize" on its head.  I understood that the OP, Handbanana, was asking about automated "humanizing" tools, but instead of talking about those, I suggested that the most straight forward way to add "humanization" to a track is to simply play it in the first place.

On a keyboard, with a GM layout like many drum modules use, low C is the kick, D and E are the snare, Gb, Ab and Bb are the hats, the notes between F1 and C2 are the Toms - etc.  It doesn't take long to figure out how to play those basic notes to start building a drum pattern, with no quantization, cleaning up in PRV as needed, and layering in more takes as needed for cymbals and extra percussion.

The Random Time CAL script can help, when programmed to only move notes by a small amount, to introduce some Note On variation when needed with a track that was put together with a grid on, or which was quantized.  But the results of that simple CAL script, or any "humanizing" tool I know of, still need some by-hand editing.

My basic point was that there are tools to be used which gives the computer some control in introducing natural timing errors, but in the end, nothing beats starting with the actual human input in the first place.

Randy B.

Interesting,--I've never before seen it to be controversial on a musician's Forum to suggest actually playing an instrument instead of inserting notes by mouse. 

An important caveat on my posts about starting with bonafide actual Human input in order to get so-called "humanization" in a track, I've said that doing a thorough and knowledgeable editing job in the PRV is an important follow up to the initial input.

Something very good about the MIDI files in Session Drummer, and other drum modules that have MIDI clip files, is that they aren't quantized.  If you take a look at these good, natural sounding clips you'll see that the notes are rarely, if ever, precisely on the beat.  The note entrances will in fact be pretty far off the money sometimes - but listened to as a whole, those clips are as precise as any actual drummer will play, hence their natural, human quality.  They were created by doing MIDI recordings of good drummers.

That's why quantizing to 99% is advice to be taken with extreme caution.

Randy B.

yorolpal

They do, of course, push and drag,".

Which is where "Groove Quantatise" comes in, you need to quantatise to the pushed or draged position, not the "grid". It also quatatises to the "grooves varying velocities, not a fixed value.
 
I suggest the OP also looks at groove quantatise. One thick is you can quantatise to the clipboard. This enables you to steal the feel from a midi clip. Either one from, say EZDrummer or one you have played correctly.
 
If you are fat fingered but can tap out the correct feel on just one or two keys you can use that as a template to groove quantatise the more complex parts.

Butch has raised a good point and it has made me think there is another way to express these concepts. And that is in the form of degrees of what sounds great.

For example what sounds best live musicians playing with a great groove and no click.  And after all that is the ultimate experience. Drums fully acoustic so we have maximum variations in the drum sounds as well as velocity and timing.

Next what sounds very very good could be great musicians with a great feel playing to a click and drums still acoustic. The only thing here is that it is the same as the best version except for the click. Great music can be made to a click. (but the same music might just sound a bit better without it) This is what a lot of us do. It allows for the easiest addition of extra musical parts.

Then good might be live musicians playing with a great groove to a click and drums are now midi. Drums still can exercise greatness in velocities and timing but to a lesser extent the limitations of the midi sound variations. (but this is growing) Drums don't have to be quantised as a good player can make this part very tight. Good drum grooves can exist in midi. Groove quantise sits well here.

Now for average to Ok  might be drum parts that were fully quantised originally but then manipulated due to some plugin adding controlled randomness to the midi parts. I say controlled because you can influence the choice to a certain extent. This is where I see these types of tools being useful at this level and they can improve an otherwise stiff track. They are interesting and fun to use and experiment with. Especially when you start applying these things to individual drum sounds.

Bad is just plain full on quantize with no variations in velocity or timing at all and the sound also remains completely static and we have all heard this! Unless you want this for the drums and other parts of the music can express the emotion and the idea so it can also be very effective. (Kraftwerk!) So not necessarily bad either.

But what I think is also wonderful is back to best scenario above but now we get Sonar to tempo map to the live performance. (I had to record some great world percussion musicians playing and they wanted nothing to do with the click but when they played it was like OMG!) I have done lots of this and it kicks ass. It is time consuming but well worth it.  After doing the hard tempo mapping work then the bars and beats in Sonar sync to the live playing. (every crotchet at least) Sonar click is rock solid to the performance now. Now anything you do in Sonar on the other tracks will take on the feel of the playing. Even quantised midi parts.

The option is there to release from the live performance and still work on the other tracks to the internal Sonar clock at fixed tempo then hand back to the tempo mapped track. Whats going on there.?

If you played the extra parts in with feeling to a click then handed back over to the tempo mapped track your music will have even more feel. Or quantised parts will also take on the feel. This is getting easier to do. It does require excellence in the initial playing to start with for it work really well. It is one of the most beautiful ways to incorporate live playing and technology at the same time.

And BTW when you examine all the tempo variations between every crotchet there does not seem to be any pattern or organisation to it. Just had an idea. I should plot them all on a graph and look to see if there are any trends that way.

I used the actual drum sounds from the players themselves to trigger the tempo mapping. As opposed to me recording a live click track and sync to that. Despite it being hard to read anything into the tempo variations, it grooved like hell.

Maybe we need to do further study in this area to find out what is going on when we hear an exciting and relentless groove.

Excellent thread!  Thanks for all the info!

Let's Bring Arrangers into this. As they are known for sounding Boxed. Canned. Whatever term U use.
I use An arranger to write with. So I can add vocals to the finished Backing track.
Before I Sing. I want The Drums and Bass as Human as possible.
So I take the 16 track midi file into Live 9. 
I use the Humanize Tools on the Track(S)
This tool In Live9 . Sounds a lot like what Frank's Midi plug in does.(I will compare).
I have been fairly happy with the results of Live 9's Humanize tools. But if Franks is Better. Then I will spend the $35.00
Then I Use Sonar For the Rest.
On the Same Note. Sort of.
The New Yamaha Genos. Has a New Round robin Multi sample Algorithm. That make the Drums Sound Very Real!
I do not have $5500 for a new Keyboard. And The Humanize tools. I have do the job.

Don't forget you get AD2 free with Sonar....the transform button is your friend trust me 
 
https://youtu.be/MdVxig0QxuY