yorolpal
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13829
- Joined: 2003/11/20 11:50:37
- Status: offline
Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
I keep seeing statements like this in many threads and, since I am (primarily) not a looper, I'm just wondering whether it is true or not. If so does that mean a gradual ending of "non-looper" support? Or an eventual program that won't suit traditional linear audio/midi recording folks at all? I still find X1 an incredible tool for what might be termed traditional recording and music production but have to admit even a dimbulb like me can see the changes happening. Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the subjective value or merits of any way of making music. All I'm asking is what some of you who do make music primarily using loop based production techniques think of X1's current and supposed future workflow.
Also...tangentially...for anyone to chime in on...considering all the previous recording techniques and fads that have come and gone over the course of rock/pop history...is "looping" just a current trend...or is it here for the long haul?
I'm thinking long haul.
(posted in software forum as well)
|
BlixYZ
Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
- Total Posts : 805
- Joined: 2010/12/31 16:45:54
- Location: Barrington, NJ
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 13:38:34
(permalink)
sonar is not looking for a niche. like the other major platforms, sonar seeks to be a "does everything" daw. sonar has always had integrated looping, i think they were the first daw to make acid obsolete. i dont thin u should anticipate any lost functionality (tho some would argue it has already happened). i personally use sonar for a wide vaiety of music styles, but primarily use it as a traditional recording and mixing environment. it is truly impressive in that regard.
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 13:54:36
(permalink)
It appears to me that SONAR's mission is to remain squarely in the be-almost-everything-but-not-quite-to-almost-everyone-almost-all-of-the-time camp. 
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
|
Brando
Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2776
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:47:20
- Location: Canada
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 15:01:26
(permalink)
LOL - almost-everything-but-not-quite-to-almost-everyone-almost-all-of-the-time TM Might be Cake's next ad campaign..... I really, really, really love X1 expanded. But at the same time this fits like a glove.
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 15:09:37
(permalink)
brundlefly
It appears to me that SONAR's mission is to remain squarely in the be-almost-everything-but-not-quite-to-almost-everyone-almost-all-of-the-time camp.
I completely concur .... almost lol
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 15:15:36
(permalink)
In response to our Ol Pal ...
Nah - I don't think Sonar is developed primarily for loopers at all. I think, as has been said, it's a "try to be-all" host.
I would also say the 'main' target audience (though not the only audience) would be "bands", "bands with singers", "songrwirters" and "church type performance recording."
Real loopers use Abelton LIVE btw (grin).
However, Sonar is capable of basically anything (as a good host should be).
Many do think of "Live" as a looper's delight - but it, too, is capable of anything. So it really boils down to workflow paradigms and marketing, imho.
There are certain strengths (and weaknesses) each host has, and that is why I think Sonar tends to appeal to non-Loopers moreso than loopers.
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 15:50:26
(permalink)
Cake has been into looping since the grove clip days - they were one of the first DAWs to climb aboard the acid fad. But yea, they have been adding more and more looper stuff - the groove matrix, the step-sequencer, yada yada yada. Not quite, as others have said, jack of all trades but master of none. Sonar does most things well, but Cake has not gotten away from the straight ahead recorder/mixer paradigm, rather added onto it.
I don't use vegas anymore for straight "band" recording, tho it is the easiest platform to do it on.
I don't use FL Studio hardly anymore, tho its step-sequencer is still the best.
I don't usually use P5, tho it is the easiest soft-synth host I've used.
SONAr does most of that stuff - maybe not as elegantly as the other programs, but I can stay in one program. It is easier to learn new work arounds than use the old ones to tie the programs together.
Now, if they could just get a few of their problem children fixed, like beat scape, and the matrix, and round off the edges and make SONAR a bit more stable when you are changing things on the fly (I try to be careful with that), I'd have to wear sunglasses.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
bobr
Max Output Level: -76 dBFS
- Total Posts : 709
- Joined: 2003/12/10 09:48:17
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 15:58:53
(permalink)
Of course not. Of course not. Of course not. Of course not. Of course not. Of course not. Of course not.
|
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 86000
- Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 16:01:24
(permalink)
Bapu is loopy.
(or so it's said)
But on an unfunny note: CW would do best for CW if it tried to be everything to all users. However to quote (loosely) Gödel's incompleteness theorems: No mathematical system can be both accurate and complete.
|
osd
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 345
- Joined: 2010/12/05 19:13:45
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 16:37:29
(permalink)
This thread is loopy.
How would CW exactly end support for "non-loopers"? Get rid of the record button? Hard cod e a non-mutable beatscape track into every project?
What do people have against groove clips? I thought they were necessary to be able to shift project tempo somewhat gracefully?
If you look at it the right way, everything is a loop. What's a song, but a non-repeating three-minute loop?
i7-870 2.93Ghz, 16GB RAM, Radeon HD 5770 + 2 x DisplayLink w/ 4 x 22" screens, Intel SSD 80GB, Sonar X1-D Exp. - Problems? How's your latency? What processes are running? Driver crash?
|
space_cowboy
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9813
- Joined: 2007/07/20 14:49:31
- Location: Front and center behind these monitors
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 16:48:32
(permalink)
yorolpal
I keep seeing statements like this in many threads and, since I am (primarily) not a looper, I'm just wondering whether it is true or not. If so does that mean a gradual ending of "non-looper" support? Or an eventual program that won't suit traditional linear audio/midi recording folks at all? I still find X1 an incredible tool for what might be termed traditional recording and music production but have to admit even a dimbulb like me can see the changes happening. Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the subjective value or merits of any way of making music. All I'm asking is what some of you who do make music primarily using loop based production techniques think of X1's current and supposed future workflow.
Also...tangentially...for anyone to chime in on...considering all the previous recording techniques and fads that have come and gone over the course of rock/pop history...is "looping" just a current trend...or is it here for the long haul?
I'm thinking long haul.
(posted in software forum as well)
My ol pal yeller headed friend I would have said looping was out ages ago because I never thought rap or whatever that junk is would last. But consider our friend Stylus RMX. ISn't that sort of a looper? THere is that boxy stuff that sort of looks like Live that I bought a Novation controller for, but never took it out of the box. I have no idea what that stuff does. Don't know about you, but I still play guitars and bass and program my drums from one of these things with Kontakt, Battery, EZ, pretty much all of the non-looper drum thingies out there. 
Some people call me Maurice SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc. Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad. 2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1. More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent. Zendrum!!!
|
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 86000
- Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 16:50:41
(permalink)
space_cowboy
yorolpal
I keep seeing statements like this in many threads and, since I am (primarily) not a looper, I'm just wondering whether it is true or not. If so does that mean a gradual ending of "non-looper" support? Or an eventual program that won't suit traditional linear audio/midi recording folks at all? I still find X1 an incredible tool for what might be termed traditional recording and music production but have to admit even a dimbulb like me can see the changes happening. Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the subjective value or merits of any way of making music. All I'm asking is what some of you who do make music primarily using loop based production techniques think of X1's current and supposed future workflow.
Also...tangentially...for anyone to chime in on...considering all the previous recording techniques and fads that have come and gone over the course of rock/pop history...is "looping" just a current trend...or is it here for the long haul?
I'm thinking long haul.
(posted in software forum as well)
My ol pal yeller headed friend
I would have said looping was out ages ago because I never thought rap or whatever that junk is would last.
But consider our friend Stylus RMX. ISn't that sort of a looper?
THere is that boxy stuff that sort of looks like Live that I bought a Novation controller for, but never took it out of the box. I have no idea what that stuff does.
Don't know about you, but I still play guitars and bass and program my drums from one of these things with Kontakt, Battery, EZ, pretty much all of the non-looper drum thingies out there.
And you can wear it around your neck with a guitar strap too?
|
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 16:53:17
(permalink)
Not end support. But give priority to features geared toward "modern"/loop-based types of production instead of enhancing more traditional set of functions.
Swipe comping is probably my favorite feature which isn't in Sonar. Granted, the folks who came up with this had to answer a few more questions than "what tools do you need to comp?" In fact, instead of adding tools, they removed steps and tools, getting the computer to do the work.
What it is you want to do? Build the perfect track by selecting the best bits. That's what swipe comping is - exactly. Just select. No selecting this tool, the cutting, then muting or soloing and reassembling and crossfading. Just swipe across what you want.
But that takes time and resources and these aren't unlimited. So it's a matter of where you put priorities. Swipe comping is of little use to loopers I guess.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
dappa1
Max Output Level: -46 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2949
- Joined: 2007/02/26 04:18:57
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 17:01:53
(permalink)
Sonar X1 was made for Mozart!
|
mikey
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 404
- Joined: 2003/11/06 21:52:49
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 17:10:34
(permalink)
Mozart mikey here... No, it was NOT!!!... ok maybe so but I still don't like it.... 
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 18:05:59
(permalink)
Item: removal of the track interleave indicator/toggle from the track view header.
This feature is not needed by loopers, because in their world everything is stereo. But non-loopers are left shaking their heads, wondering "wtf were they thinking?"
A minor detail, really, but indicative of the kind of thinking that does not take into account traditional recording because the people making those decisions are not themselves recordists. They are loopers and sequencers. They work on laptops. They often do not use microphones or acoustical instruments. Their compositions may be completely digital creations that are not even manifested in the acoustical realm until the final product is played back on someone's iPod.
This isn't a judgmental statement, just an acknowledgment that the world they work in is different from the traditional recording studio environment. It also represents the fastest-growing market segment, one that CW naturally wants to court.
Ironically, Cakewalk's CTO and most of the developers are traditional recordists and musicians who play with fingers, hands and feet rather than a mouse. But that group is clearly not driving the bus anymore.
So are we conventional recordists being abandoned? I don't think so. We are no longer being specifically catered to because we no longer represent the majority of the marketplace, and I cannot fault that in a market-driven company.
Before you think CW is picking on you, take a trip down to your local music store. If you are over 50 and don't have a grandchild in tow, good luck getting the attention of a salesperson. Want to buy a mandolin instead of a Schecter Hellraiser? Hmm, I think we may have one in the back room. Want to go hear some good live music? Sorry, the only live music in your neighborhood is a guy with a laptop playing MIDI files he downloaded off the internet.
Once you're swimming outside the main stream you're on your own. I don't whine about it, there's no point. And anyway, I kind of like it out here on the periphery.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
|
trimph1
Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6348
- Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
- Location: London ON
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 18:27:05
(permalink)
I like Sonar for what it does well..which is most things.
I don't think that they were after the looper market as such any more than they be after anyone else's market.
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
|
space_cowboy
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9813
- Joined: 2007/07/20 14:49:31
- Location: Front and center behind these monitors
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 18:34:20
(permalink)
bapu
space_cowboy
yorolpal
I keep seeing statements like this in many threads and, since I am (primarily) not a looper, I'm just wondering whether it is true or not. If so does that mean a gradual ending of "non-looper" support? Or an eventual program that won't suit traditional linear audio/midi recording folks at all? I still find X1 an incredible tool for what might be termed traditional recording and music production but have to admit even a dimbulb like me can see the changes happening. Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the subjective value or merits of any way of making music. All I'm asking is what some of you who do make music primarily using loop based production techniques think of X1's current and supposed future workflow.
Also...tangentially...for anyone to chime in on...considering all the previous recording techniques and fads that have come and gone over the course of rock/pop history...is "looping" just a current trend...or is it here for the long haul?
I'm thinking long haul.
(posted in software forum as well)
My ol pal yeller headed friend
I would have said looping was out ages ago because I never thought rap or whatever that junk is would last.
But consider our friend Stylus RMX. ISn't that sort of a looper?
THere is that boxy stuff that sort of looks like Live that I bought a Novation controller for, but never took it out of the box. I have no idea what that stuff does.
Don't know about you, but I still play guitars and bass and program my drums from one of these things with Kontakt, Battery, EZ, pretty much all of the non-looper drum thingies out there.
And you can wear it around your neck with a guitar strap too?
It do It do, but mine is mounted on a stand to the left of my cockpit.
Some people call me Maurice SPLAT Pro lifetime, ADK 6 core 3.6Ghz with 32 GB RAM, SSD 1TB system drive, 3 3TB regular drives for samples, recordings and misc. Behringer X Touch, UAD Apollo Quad. 2 UAD2 Quads PCI (i think - inside the box whatever that is), Console 1. More guitars (40??) and synths (hard and soft) than talent. Zendrum!!!
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 19:03:29
(permalink)
Swipe comping is probably my favorite feature which isn't in Sonar. You can solo portions of layers in a track by Ctrl-dragging with the mute tool. The corresponding regions of all other layers in the track get muted as you drag across the portion of the clip you want to hear. Works pretty similarly as far as far as I can tell, unless there's some sort of magic going on with auto-cross-fades in Logic or other DAWs that make the transitions more seamless..?
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
|
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 19:30:27
(permalink)
It works somewhat similarly.
The minute you open a folder containing multiple takes, you're in swipe mode. No need for a specific tool or hold any modifier, you simply drag across the portions that you want to include. It also takes care of all the crossfades - and in almost a year of using it, I have yet to see an instance of it (the default crossfade) not working flawlessly.
Comps and variations are automatically saved and easily recalled via a menu accessed by clicking on the right edge of the clip. So you can compile and audition a bunch of different edits in no time.
I can see certain advantages in Sonar's way of handling it of course - you can have more than a clip playing at once, for example. Nevertheless, in 99% of the cases, Logic's default behavior is what I expect/need.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
yorolpal
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13829
- Joined: 2003/11/20 11:50:37
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 19:44:15
(permalink)
Studio One V2 has added this feature as well.
|
ba_midi
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14061
- Joined: 2003/11/05 16:58:18
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 20:51:15
(permalink)
I think it's interesting that the non-loopers think CW is targeting loopers, and loopers think CW is not.
Fun :)
|
trimph1
Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6348
- Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
- Location: London ON
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 20:53:18
(permalink)
I'm a non-looping looper... or am I a looping non-looper? 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
|
simpleman
Max Output Level: -85 dBFS
- Total Posts : 262
- Joined: 2009/05/16 01:20:33
- Location: Down to Earth
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 21:01:42
(permalink)
Jeez, Cakewalk just released Pro Channel Expanded, which has little to be "looper centric".
I suppose if they really were chasing down the Rap/Hip-Hop market they would have never given up Project 5.
The three main elements of a DAW:
1. Creating and writing, song media.
2. Recording and mixing.
3. Production (Mastering).
Not a single Cakewalk product stands out as an Industry leader, but taking the three elements as described above can be valued as 'The Industry Leader'
|
Rain
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 9736
- Joined: 2003/11/07 05:10:12
- Location: Las Vegas
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 21:18:25
(permalink)
simpleman
1. Creating and writing, song media.
I think that that's what it's all about in this case. No 1. That's where loopers and traditional musicians work differently. If you fall in the classic category of using a score, none of the latest development served you. If you fall in the more straight ahead pop/rock type of production, it's middle ground. If you're into loops and electronic instruments, you've seen most of promising developments in recent years - though many added features have yet to be brought to maturity. As for PC, whether you're doing putting together a Hip Hop song or recording the next Yngwie Malmsteen, mixing is something you'll have to go through. And analog modeling is a in thing.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
|
yorolpal
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13829
- Joined: 2003/11/20 11:50:37
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 21:30:22
(permalink)
That's why I asked...I wouldn't have a clue. It is a bit wacky... Sorry...responding to Billy...damn iPad.
|
jbow
Max Output Level: -0.2 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7601
- Joined: 2003/11/26 19:14:18
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 21:30:34
(permalink)
I am about as far rom a looper as you can get. I will use loops for a temporary drum track, then add audio and softsynths... so I will be really unhappy if Sonar moves toward loopers. I will then have to find something else. I hope that is not the case.
J
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
|
aleef
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
- Total Posts : 431
- Joined: 2006/09/14 20:02:26
- Location: la/ca
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 22:57:54
(permalink)
...considering all the previous recording techniques and fads that have come and gone over the course of rock/pop history...is "looping" just a current trend...or is it here for the long haul?
long haul.. there has actually been loop techniques and based fx since the late 60s. were like 2 generations in of people who grew up listening to music put together in that fashion. X1 is for anyone wanting to record. good music, bad music ...I like em' both. Duke Ellington.
post edited by aleef - 2011/10/21 00:05:22
Intel i7 3820 3.6 GHz ASUS Sabertooth X79 16Gb SonarX2PE ProTools 11 RME HDSP9632
|
Fog
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 12302
- Joined: 2008/02/27 21:53:35
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
Re:Is Sonar X1 really being developed primarily for "loopers"??
2011/10/20 23:13:49
(permalink)
lets confuse the matter EVEN more.. you can be a looper AND still play live http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=PTSUR3RHh9M post Reyn "looping" in the past. it's ALL live no samples. all the makers have to target a WIDE group of music makers.. how everyone approachs things is different.. the assumption all people who use loops as stereo is wrong also.. some of us remember when sampling time was VERY small and mono was handy for drums etc. some stuff is still in mono also. there was a demo of jeremy ellis doing something at Namm a few years back that was good. you might find it a different way to work than you already do , if you haven't tried it already.
|