dubdisciple
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 15:33:24
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Maybe they will bundle something completely out of left field like Nuke Sonar Version!
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markyzno
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 15:38:43
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Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >Sound Design on IMDB --
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Steev
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 15:43:55
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Wow I never even tried exporting video out of SONAR, good to know, I always imported audio SONAR to Vegas and rendered project from there.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 15:48:53
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Steev..you should keep that workflow for immediate future unless you simply want to test it out. The amount of time to get Sonar to create a half decent video is far more than the time it takes to export audio and import into Vegas
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chuckebaby
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 17:18:39
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dubdisciple
Steev..you should keep that workflow for immediate future unless you simply want to test it out. The amount of time to get Sonar to create a half decent video is far more than the time it takes to export audio and import into Vegas
so then why the updates to video ?
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dubdisciple
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 17:50:50
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Chuck..not sure if I understand the question and I certainly cant speak for Cakewalk. If you are asking why I think they are updating video features I would guess two main reasons: the previous video engine contained lots of obsolete support and it was odd that their product was not able to import file types found on most consumer products. I did advise Steev or anyone else to keep their current workflow for exporting video for the present but who knows if that will change. I can't imagine anyone arguing that Sonar will produce a better video file than most dedicated vido is diting applications available the present time. That's not a knock on Cakewalk. I expectgradual changes and am fine with that.
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Steev
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 18:04:51
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dubdisciple
Steev..you should keep that workflow for immediate future unless you simply want to test it out. The amount of time to get Sonar to create a half decent video is far more than the time it takes to export audio and import into Vegas
Actually I believe I worded that wrong. I only export audio tracks out of SONAR, usually tracks I created with MIDI instruments and import them into the original Vegas project where I do all the video editing and rendering. I only use a video track in SONAR for reference, and that's usually a low quality 512 k/bs .wmv. Besides that doesn't take long at all to render with an AMD FirePro GPU accelerated graphics card. That puppy is SNAPPY! Vegas isn't what I would consider a DAW, but isn't shabby at all for recording audio tracks, especially when I use the SSL channel strip that came bundled in WAVES Mercury bundle.
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Kev999
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 18:15:21
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dubdisciple
Kev999
Does the Sonar package include all the softsynths and effects that you would need?
No.
I would respectfully disagree with that. Yes, there are synths and effects some might prefer over what is included in software...
I'm just saying that the bundle of effects and virtual instruments falls short in a few areas, e.g.: Brickwall limiter Drums Orchestral instruments Hammond organ Electric piano Maybe not every user would consider these things important. It depends on your specific needs.
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jscomposer
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 18:21:23
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markyzno
zblip
This said, I still have X2, and some of you wrote on this thread that the video in X3 had evolved. In what way is the new video app different in X3???
Thanks and have a good year all of you!
Hello fellow Sound Designer!
I can categorically say that X3d hasnt moved on fully in video to go pro with it. Perfect example happened to me literally just now....I am exporting a sound design timeline to a mix house in Soho, London and naturally they are using PT11... I cant export an OMF correctly with fades on which renders the whole process useless so am having to export stems into PT10 (which I have here) and then out of PT10 into an AAF.
Its these kind of issues, if corrected are invaluable to us in the industry.
I did try out X3d for a limited time but wasnt too impressed at all but didnt stick with it long enough to fully test, the Bakers have assured me (in another thread I started) that the video side of X3d is "there" but saw very little in my test of it. Having said that I will test further when I get the chance, but no support of OMF *properly* and no support of AAF is kinda right at my core need and X3d doesnt have that.
Thanks for the report. That really blows, I was hoping Cake would have improved on the video. All of my cues get sent from PT11. Scoring to pic is all done in Cubase 7, which I have shamefully grown to love (sorry Cake!). Does X3d even detect the frame rate and format when imported??
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Splat 
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 18:23:51
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Kev999
I'm just saying that the bundle of effects and virtual instruments falls short in a few areas, e.g.:
Brickwall limiter
Drums
Orchestral instruments
Hammond organ
Electric piano
Maybe not every user would consider these things important. It depends on your specific needs.
Drums = Addictive Drums or session drummer. Addictive drums is great. Hammond organ/Electric Piano = Dimension Pro Brickwall limiter = Nomad BT Brickwall BW2S-3 or Sonitus Compressor. You could make a hit record with any of these. Or we could use the real thing or download some freebies.. We are spoiled that is our problem.
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John
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 18:37:08
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Pocket Orchestra comes in Dim Pro too. Studio Strings and Studio Drums
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Gary McCoy
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 18:54:02
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Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
No. Sonar cannot create the artwork, not print the sleeves.
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mettelus
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:06:01
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(not sure if this is a true hijack or not...) Side question for the folks who use Vegas... I have never done video, but have had Adobe Premiere for years as part of the Creative Suite and only really jumped into it once to chop up Karl's 9 hour SWA video into the 50 chapters (my attention span is too short to sit through more than 2 chapters at once). I found Premiere sort of clunky, and not overly intuitive, but had a few folks swear up and down by it. Since I already have it (and have no high expectations with video), is Premiere worth the time taking to learn?
I see Vegas endorsed a lot in the forums, so this has always made me wonder, but I honestly have no clue how they are different.
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Splat
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:08:28
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Gary McCoy
Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
No. Sonar cannot create the artwork, not print the sleeves.
It can create artwork as well... See genius (well OK not exactly)... 
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dubdisciple
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:37:09
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2014/01/06 19:44:19
Kev999
I'm just saying that the bundle of effects and virtual instruments falls short in a few areas, e.g.:
Brickwall limiter
Drums
Orchestral instruments
Hammond organ
Electric piano
Maybe not every user would consider these things important. It depends on your specific needs.
I'm sure someone else has also addressed this but since it was a response to me, I will reply. i think now we are getting into a combo of preferences and semantics. I'm going to start by making the assumption that you refer to softsynth versions of all of the items listed. Obviously if you feel a real drummer, physiocal Hammond organ, live full orchestra, etc are absolute necessary components to a full fledged album, you got me there. As far is if ytou are referring to softsynths, we are really getting into preferences instead of the OP's question. Brickwall Limiter is probably the area you have the strongest case and that all depends if you think the brickwall Limiter in the Nomad Bundle is useless. Brickwall Limiters are great, but I have no doubt there are several people on this board alone more than capable of compensating by just using one of several compressors in limiting mode and just not pushing too much. Drums- Unless you feel that Addictive Drums is garbage this one is purely preference. It's possible you feel competing products are so much better that one could not create album worthy drums. I obviously don't share that opinion. Plenty of albums have been made with worse. Even SD3 in the right hands could be used on an album Orchestral Insruments- No Dim Pro is not the standard bearer whe nit comes to orchestral instruments but again, I have heard far worse. Hammond Organ- This goes squarely in the category of niche instrument. There are just far too many legendary groups of all genres that have never touched a Hammond to consider it a mandatory part of creating an album. Electric Piano- Maybe it's just me but I think the electric Pianos in Dim pro are decent. Between those and the lounge lizard module, that's a decent selection. Yes, there are better on the market but unless every artrist records album with the absolute consensus best of each kind of instrument or plugin, it is unreasonable to claim that having less than your preferred version of an instrument is somehow not enough to create an album. As I pointed out, many instruments that were considered absolutely inferior to what the preferred brand at the time ended up craving their own followings because people simply used what they had or they purposely attempted a new variation of the sound.
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Splat
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:39:49
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Rewind to the late 1980's that's what I say... all we had was a DX7 and a D-50 and you were regarded as "lucky".
If you had an Emulator II you were a professor.
If you had a Fairlight you were a proper producer.
Or you hired the stuff and then pretended that you didn't break it....
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John
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:47:11
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Well if a mellotron can be used in a hit of the past there is plenty in Sonar that will be better sounding.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:48:16
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mettelus
(not sure if this is a true hijack or not...) Side question for the folks who use Vegas... I have never done video, but have had Adobe Premiere for years as part of the Creative Suite and only really jumped into it once to chop up Karl's 9 hour SWA video into the 50 chapters (my attention span is too short to sit through more than 2 chapters at once). I found Premiere sort of clunky, and not overly intuitive, but had a few folks swear up and down by it. Since I already have it (and have no high expectations with video), is Premiere worth the time taking to learn?
I see Vegas endorsed a lot in the forums, so this has always made me wonder, but I honestly have no clue how they are different.
I hated Premiere at first. It did feel clunky at first, but as i got used to it became far more useful to me than Vegas. Not a knock on Vegas because I love Vegas and think in some ways it is a better choice for certain types of users. You will find Vegas endorsed by a lot of audio people because it is 1) (for the beginner) easier to learn. 2) Looks more like audio programs they are used to and even edits in a more similar manner. For those coming from a purely film/video editing background using something like Avid or Lightworks, Vegas seems downright weird to work with. Programs like Final Cut and Premiere have a workflow that borrows some elements from older and well entrenched programs like Avid and modernize them for people who are more likely to work with a mouse than keyboard shortcuts and massive and expensive control surfaces. The single best thing abut Premiere for me is the integration with the other programs. Being able to edit my images on timeline in photoshop, jumpo in and out of After Effects and audition and dedicated color correcting software like Speedgrade without having to render saves me more than enough time to make Vegas a fondly remembered but impractical afterthought for what I do. In any case, if you already own premiere, I can see no major advantage to spending hundreds more on a program with such similar functionality.
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John T
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:50:10
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Agree with everything dub says up there. I'll add that I think DimPro has some excellent Hammond sounds in it. The thing about Hammond organs is that the classic sounds that people love aren't really what comes out of a Hammond straight up. You need to mess around with them a bit and distort them to get the classic rock and soul sounds. If you do to DimPro's Hammonds what you'd do to a real one, you can get damn close.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:50:35
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John
Well if a mellotron can be used in a hit of the past there is plenty in Sonar that will be better sounding.
I guess this sums it up more succintly than I did. We have nostalgic memories of things that were chep compromises and now spend money to emulate them.
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John T
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 19:53:17
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His wider point, though, is dead right. Pretty much none of the items listed are essential to making great records, including brickwall limiters.
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mettelus
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 20:13:04
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dubdisciple
I hated Premiere at first. It did feel clunky at first, but as i got used to it became far more useful to me than Vegas. Not a knock on Vegas because I love Vegas and think in some ways it is a better choice for certain types of users. You will find Vegas endorsed by a lot of audio people because it is 1) (for the beginner) easier to learn. 2) Looks more like audio programs they are used to and even edits in a more similar manner. For those coming from a purely film/video editing background using something like Avid or Lightworks, Vegas seems downright weird to work with. Programs like Final Cut and Premiere have a workflow that borrows some elements from older and well entrenched programs like Avid and modernize them for people who are more likely to work with a mouse than keyboard shortcuts and massive and expensive control surfaces.
The single best thing abut Premiere for me is the integration with the other programs. Being able to edit my images on timeline in photoshop, jumpo in and out of After Effects and audition and dedicated color correcting software like Speedgrade without having to render saves me more than enough time to make Vegas a fondly remembered but impractical afterthought for what I do. In any case, if you already own premiere, I can see no major advantage to spending hundreds more on a program with such similar functionality.
Thanks for the reply. The folks who endorsed it to me were video folks, and I definitely went into it with the "SONAR" mindset. To be honest, the integration aspect was the reason I bought the creative suite, but my focus with it was more Photoshop, Flash, and Dreamweaver. It was comical the day I read a forum post where someone said "I use Audition for my default wave editor." I had never even opened it before then! Video is not a big focus for me (yet), but when that time comes I will delve more into Premiere. Thanks again for the feedback.
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Steev
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 21:36:37
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mettelus
(not sure if this is a true hijack or not...) Side question for the folks who use Vegas... I have never done video, but have had Adobe Premiere for years as part of the Creative Suite and only really jumped into it once to chop up Karl's 9 hour SWA video into the 50 chapters (my attention span is too short to sit through more than 2 chapters at once). I found Premiere sort of clunky, and not overly intuitive, but had a few folks swear up and down by it. Since I already have it (and have no high expectations with video), is Premiere worth the time taking to learn?
I see Vegas endorsed a lot in the forums, so this has always made me wonder, but I honestly have no clue how they are different.
I've only dabbled with Adobe Premiere myself trying to help friends with Adobe CS5 get it up and running and didn't put in enough time to really take a shine to it. Of course that's most likely because I got passed the learning curve and got quite proficient in Vegas and couldn't find my way around the UI. However I can tell it's no toy by any means and there are plenty of very happy users who do shine brightly to it and really made some great and interesting videos. It's also very popular and highly endorsed with tons of articles you can get a comprehensive handle on it at www.creativecow.com to jumpstart your learning curve if and when you find the muse. But be careful, NLE's can be highly addicting!
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Steev
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/06 23:26:38
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BOY-O-BOY ARE WE EVER SPOILED!
And to think I've never even tried the Nomad Blue Tube Plugins yet. I don't know maybe I'm just satisfied with one of my favorite brick wall limiters with Sonitus compressor/limiter not to mention all many the other Sonitus plugins and presets, and what could be more obvious than the Concrete Limiter?
I could never understand the complaints Session Drummer 3 gets, anybody here ever have to mic up a real drum set with each piece on it's own channel and spend hours and hours and maybe even day or so trying to get it tuned, mixed and hoping to getting sound half as good as the Andy Johns kit? Or the Gretch, Yamaha Birch, or Bonzo kit to name a few for that matter? By comparison it takes very little tweaking, but it will take some tweaking to get SD3 to sound any way I want it to, and I mean exactly how I want it to. I love it when people say; "Man Steev, how'd you get that killer drum sound?" and I say; "Oh I can't take all the credit for that, Andy Johns helped out considerably." LOL
We got EQs, reverbs, compressors, noise gates, and oh yeah, even a dedicated percussion channel strip with a ton of presets to get us started carving out that cup of drool sound we've been looking for, and all we got to do is a little bit of work for it, and we'll get there.
Addictive Drums sound great too, but that proprietary mapping kills the whole thang for me. I've been sequencing and programming drums since the 80's in the GM rhythm spec and when I hit keys on my MIDI keyboard controller I expect the right drums or cymbals to be where I expect them to be. I don't play well with loop libraries myself, but anyone who does got one killer kit.
And I really like Dimension Pro as much as any other sampler. If a patch doesn't sound just right, I'll tweak it until it does. Same with Rapture, Lounge Lizard, Z3ta, True Pianos, etc, and so on. They can all be tweaked, internally or with audio and MIDI plugins.
If anyone can tell me of a more complete and feature rich DAW than SONAR Producer X3 Please LET ME KNOW, I want it, and if I find one I'll let you know
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Kev999
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/07 00:07:27
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dubdisciple
Kev999
I'm just saying that the bundle of effects and virtual instruments falls short in a few areas, e.g.:
Brickwall limiter
Drums
Orchestral instruments
Hammond organ
Electric piano
Maybe not every user would consider these things important. It depends on your specific needs.
...the brickwall Limiter in the Nomad Bundle...Addictive Drums...the lounge lizard module...
I wasn't aware of Nomad, Addictive Drums or Lounge Lizard. So there's 3 more bases covered in X3, which obviously goes some way towards undermining my argument. But the Sonar bundle is still weak in some areas and I'm sure that I'm not the only user who relies on a few third-party plugins.
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brian brock
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/07 00:27:12
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Steev
Addictive Drums sound great too, but that proprietary mapping kills the whole thang for me.
Addictive Drums will map to general midi just fine - go to the beats page of AD, lower right, there's a selector for mapping. General Midi is there. There's another way to get there too, but I can't remember it at the moment.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/07 01:35:48
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kev Kev999
I wasn't aware of Nomad, Addictive Drums or Lounge Lizard. So there's 3 more bases covered in X3, which obviously goes some way towards undermining my argument. But the Sonar bundle is still weak in some areas and I'm sure that I'm not the only user who relies on a few third-party plugins.
I don't think you would get an argument on the fact that Sonar has weaknesses but the question was not whether Sonar was perfect, but whether it could make an album. The simple answer to that is yes. Even the weaknesses you allude to are more along the lines of relative than absolute. If, for instance one prefers Fab Filter for EQ, it does not mean the Quadcurve is not more than capable. Bottom line is that too many albums have been completed with far less despite any shortcomings. I'm not saying one should use only Cakewalk synths and effects. That's a different question all together. Even in Sonar webinars I have seen Cake staff use other plugins.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/07 03:33:32
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ProTools has a very nice workflow for audio especially (or so most people feel). Back when PCs were a LOT less powerful, their expansion cards allowed people to use a ton of plugins while native systems were stuck with a few, or low quality ones. These days, that isn't such an issue, but ProTools is by now the de facto standard for larger recording studios. Many production style studios use Cubase, Logic and yes, Sonar. Reaper is gaining some popularity, and if I'm not mistaken Colby Caillat's hit of 2012(?) "Call Me Maybe" was done entirely in Reason.
In other words, your own skill in composition, production and mixing are much more likely to hamper you than any inherent lack of sound quality on Sonar's part.
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markyzno
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/07 05:57:57
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jscomposer
Thanks for the report. That really blows, I was hoping Cake would have improved on the video. All of my cues get sent from PT11. Scoring to pic is all done in Cubase 7, which I have shamefully grown to love (sorry Cake!). Does X3d even detect the frame rate and format when imported??
I havent had any issues ever with X3c and frame rate drops etc but you have to manually set it rather than any kind of detection, same goes with the format. I Usually get clients to hard code the frame rate anyway just to be on the safe side.
Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >Sound Design on IMDB --
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Steev
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Re: Is Sonar powerful enough to make a full fledged album?
2014/01/07 06:35:11
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brian brock
Steev
Addictive Drums sound great too, but that proprietary mapping kills the whole thang for me.
Addictive Drums will map to general midi just fine - go to the beats page of AD, lower right, there's a selector for mapping. General Midi is there.
There's another way to get there too, but I can't remember it at the moment.
THANK YOU Brian! I shall indeed investigate, now that I have some time to breath a little easier. I'm Excited!!
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