brundlefly


The bad news is you're wrong, but the good news is you're wrong. 


Key Bindings > Bind Context = Staff View > Tracks | Pick Tracks

The reason I could not find the "pick tracks" keyboard binding is not because I didn't look.  I looked under "global keystrokes", rather than "staff keystrokes.  I assumed, obviously incorrectly, that the global keystrokes contained all the other keystrokes.  Thanks again for pointing this out. 

Jerry Gerber

jsg

What is bizarre is your misunderstanding of the issue.   If it were not for people like me, who have been buying Cakewalk products for the past 18 years, they would not even be in business.  You're ascribing the most immature and self-centered motives to what is essentially a problem related to musical intelligence and ease of use.   Software should change, I am all for experimentation.  Implementation of new features, better reliability, better ergonomics, etc.  are all welcome.  But to fix something that isn't broken, to make something worse, there is no excuse for that.

Actually I wasn't responding to you at all. I was replying, as indicated by my use of his quote, to Ben's "I have paid my money so I should get what I want". I find that a strange thought and I explained why.  I agree with you and everyone else that is interested in dialog with the developers towards improving stability, ease of use and functionality towards the best compromise of everyone's needs. However, Ben's argument seems to be that they should throw away X1 and start over with 8.5, to make a Sonar 9 that is broadly the same with, perhaps, a few bugs fixed here and there. He's not the only one who has implicitly or explicitly requested that. My point is that it isn't going to happen, so why keep thrashing away at it? I'm all for working with what's here - which is X1 at this point - and seeing if we can make it better. However, it doesn't add anything to the argument to advocate going backwards.

Have I, or anyone else implied that we should get "whatever we want"?   I think not.  

You didn't; Ben did, as far as I understood it. That's why I was responding to him, not you. 

When I tell Cakewalk there is a bug in the display of dotted notes, or I explain to them that correct music notation does not place a dot directly on the staff line, as Sonar does, they should be listening to me.  They should care about these things.  

I agree, and I have been an advocate for improvements to the staff view for several years. I was also vocal about the problems with note length selection, which they have now fixed, though I still find the decision to remove the buttons incomprehensible - but I agree the staff view remains an underdeveloped part of the program. For what it's worth, they actually do know this (Brandon, in any case, has acknowledged as much many times), but for whatever reason it has not been made a development priority for a long time now. I hope it will be in the next version, and I agree that discussing features we'd like to see here, and asking for them in feature requests, is the best way to contribute to the process and hopefully see these improvements soon. 

I'm not sure how you got the impression that I'm against that (since your rant appears to be directed at me; I could be wrong about that, but that's certainly how it seems). I'm not. However, I don't think that most of the changes to X1 were random, pointless change for change's sake. I don't agree with every single one, but I agree with a lot of them, and I believe they were made with the best intentions and considerable thought. I hope that some of them (such as global snap) are reconsidered, and I think that others (such as the control bar and envelope filter) were steps in the right direction but are not all the way there yet. In some cases I do think a reinstatement of the 'old' behaviour as an option would be a good thing, to satisfy those who preferred it that way. 

But all of these things take development resources, and that means there are costs as against developing new features, and the company, not us, are the ones who will eventually decide how to allocate their resources, what the priorities are, what they can successfully market to new users, and how to stay competitive in this very competitive market. We can suggest things, we can dialog with them, we can request features and discuss to our hearts' content, but we cannot make those decisions. So I find it childish to lob these 'You have to listen to me! I'm a paying customer! Where is feature X that I requested!' statements into the debate, which is why I responded to Ben in the way that I did.   I hope that clarifies my position... 

John T

What a great topic. We've really not discussed this anywhere near enough. Riveting stuff.

yup. Couldn't agree more. I don't know why I keep engaging, it's really pointless. 

Me? errr... yes actually, I'm doing great thanks! How are you?

subtlearts



It does, thank you subtlearts and thank you for maintaining civility toward other users and toward Cakewalk..

Jerry Gerber
www.jerrygerber.com

jsg

What is bizarre is your misunderstanding of the issue.   If it were not for people like me, who have been buying Cakewalk products for the past 18 years, they would not even be in business.  You're ascribing the most immature and self-centered motives to what is essentially a problem related to musical intelligence and ease of use.   Software should change, I am all for experimentation.  Implementation of new features, better reliability, better ergonomics, etc.  are all welcome.  But to fix something that isn't broken, to make something worse, there is no excuse for that.

Actually I wasn't responding to you at all. I was replying, as indicated by my use of his quote, to Ben's "I have paid my money so I should get what I want". I find that a strange thought and I explained why.  I agree with you and everyone else that is interested in dialog with the developers towards improving stability, ease of use and functionality towards the best compromise of everyone's needs. However, Ben's argument seems to be that they should throw away X1 and start over with 8.5, to make a Sonar 9 that is broadly the same with, perhaps, a few bugs fixed here and there. He's not the only one who has implicitly or explicitly requested that. My point is that it isn't going to happen, so why keep thrashing away at it? I'm all for working with what's here - which is X1 at this point - and seeing if we can make it better. However, it doesn't add anything to the argument to advocate going backwards.

Have I, or anyone else implied that we should get "whatever we want"?   I think not.  

You didn't; Ben did, as far as I understood it. That's why I was responding to him, not you. 

When I tell Cakewalk there is a bug in the display of dotted notes, or I explain to them that correct music notation does not place a dot directly on the staff line, as Sonar does, they should be listening to me.  They should care about these things.  

I agree, and I have been an advocate for improvements to the staff view for several years. I was also vocal about the problems with note length selection, which they have now fixed, though I still find the decision to remove the buttons incomprehensible - but I agree the staff view remains an underdeveloped part of the program. For what it's worth, they actually do know this (Brandon, in any case, has acknowledged as much many times), but for whatever reason it has not been made a development priority for a long time now. I hope it will be in the next version, and I agree that discussing features we'd like to see here, and asking for them in feature requests, is the best way to contribute to the process and hopefully see these improvements soon. 

I'm not sure how you got the impression that I'm against that (since your rant appears to be directed at me; I could be wrong about that, but that's certainly how it seems). I'm not. However, I don't think that most of the changes to X1 were random, pointless change for change's sake. I don't agree with every single one, but I agree with a lot of them, and I believe they were made with the best intentions and considerable thought. I hope that some of them (such as global snap) are reconsidered, and I think that others (such as the control bar and envelope filter) were steps in the right direction but are not all the way there yet. In some cases I do think a reinstatement of the 'old' behaviour as an option would be a good thing, to satisfy those who preferred it that way. 

But all of these things take development resources, and that means there are costs as against developing new features, and the company, not us, are the ones who will eventually decide how to allocate their resources, what the priorities are, what they can successfully market to new users, and how to stay competitive in this very competitive market. We can suggest things, we can dialog with them, we can request features and discuss to our hearts' content, but we cannot make those decisions. So I find it childish to lob these 'You have to listen to me! I'm a paying customer! Where is feature X that I requested!' statements into the debate, which is why I responded to Ben in the way that I did.   I hope that clarifies my position... 

BenMMusTech
Oh and one more thing to the dip **** (skyodelic) who keeps on saying just keep using 8.5 as I keep pointing out eventually the software is NO LONGER SUPPORTED by WINDOWS, INTERFACE and or SONAR.  It stops working, have you tried to fire up Pyro Audio Creator, the very original version that was designed for windows 98, guess what it does not work!!!!! So I had to upgrade.  
  
Now every year without fail Sonar put out a new update, YOU CANNONT LEARN A PEICE OF TECHNOLOGY AS COMPLEX AS SONAR IN ONE YEAR, so if Sonar keep changing and this is true with all major music manufactures today, how are we going to master our instrument let alone our craft.
 
No wonder Lady Go GA and the omnisexual alien Justin Beiber are dominating what is left of the music industry.  

Insulting people who offer suggestions will get you a long way.  If you you run what you purchased on the OS you purchased it for it will continue to run.  So your statement is asinine.  FWIW I am running 8.5.3 and X1 on XP 32 and Win7 64.  I would have to ask why a super musical genius would need pyro audio creator.


If you cannot learn how to use a piece of software in a year, especially when it is just an update, you have bigger issues than a broken violin or preference for comfortable shoes. Even with the changes for X1 it is still tracks, channels and clips.


Not a fan of either, but maybe they focussed on reaching an audience and developing an identity as opposed tossing out insults on a peer to peer forum.


Grif

Grif... you summed up what I was thinking, but was trying to figure out how to be nice about it.

Interesting read so far, I am trying to find all the posts I can on X1 to decide if it is time to go from Sonar 8.5 PE to X1 now. The 20% off is a BIG incentive atm... and the deadline has made it imperative I no longer put of making the decision.

I have read a lot so far since it's release but that also includes pre patch stuff which now would obviously be a moot point if something was fixed and is no longer an issue for you long term cakewalk users like me.

Is pro channel really that good?

Does it sit along side 3rd party pro plugins such as waves, UA, etc?

Is it something that one wouldn't use if you have access to waves, UA, etc...?

I am not so much concerned what pro channel sounds like, just so long as it sounds professional when worked hard. My toolbox is always happy to make room for a new quality tool.

I can already tell that the workflow has been streamlined but a "re-learning curve" has been introduced, which I am fine with IF it will actually be an improvement for me and the way I currently work. I understand no can answer that but if someone just discusses a few things they like/dislike about the new flow, I am sure I will be able to relate to your likes/dislikes and decide for myself... seeing as we have been using the same program for many years. Give or take an upgrade.

Anything that anyone can chime in for someone who has went from Sonar6 PE to 8, then 8.5 and now considering X1. Would be GREATLY appreciated.

EDIT: I am sure a number of you understand, so many things to buy... but limited funds to go around.

I just got Win7 ult64bit... got lucky on an Ebay listing. Picked it up for $114 with shipping, upgrade version. Had to buy a new hard drive and just got the M-audio CX8 speakers... HUGE price drop there and I have still yet to upgrade from Komplete 6 to 7.... /sigh

Back to my search....

Rob

subtlearts


Well all I can tell you is that personally, X1 was a good fit for me more or less right away. I had the luxury of trying out the workspace via a copy of LE that I got from a magazine here in Germany, and I liked it enough to plonk down the upgrade fee for the full meal deal. It's been pretty smooth sailing here and for the most part I like the changes enough to make the learning process worthwhile. I haven't gone as deeply into it as some here, but for my normal workflow it's a nice environment and I haven't regretted the decision. I think for $80 with the discount it's really in no-brainer territory as far as I'm concerned. 

Thankyou!!

RnRmaChine:

The screensets and interface are generally much better flow in X1, so that's worth it. 

I'm not completely sold on the prochannel just yet. As an EQ, it's pretty handy and slick. I don't like that you can't see your frequency information in the view and you can't see what your center frequency point is unless you wait for mouse over to appear. 

Sonically, it sounds fantastic. 

The compressors are interesting. They're nice, but I can't say they're better yet. I LOVE the waves renn compressor. It's going to be hard to replace it to me. So as of now, I prefer waves for compression. 

The tube saturator seems to do less sonically then the tube saturator plugin. I'm not sure why. so it's getting less use. 

So to summarize: 

Prochannel EQ: a nice upgrade, worth it.
Prochannel Compression: not quite there yet. missing some flexibility, although it's pretty decent.
Prochannel tube sat: Not good for me, I just use the tube plugin that comes with Sonar.

The screensets and interface for navigating: Worth every penny of the upgrade.

RnRmaChine


Interesting read so far, I am trying to find all the posts I can on X1 to decide if it is time to go from Sonar 8.5 PE to X1 now. The 20% off is a BIG incentive atm... and the deadline has made it imperative I no longer put of making the decision.

I have read a lot so far since it's release but that also includes pre patch stuff which now would obviously be a moot point if something was fixed and is no longer an issue for you long term cakewalk users like me.

Is pro channel really that good?

Does it sit along side 3rd party pro plugins such as waves, UA, etc?

Is it something that one wouldn't use if you have access to waves, UA, etc...?

I am not so much concerned what pro channel sounds like, just so long as it sounds professional when worked hard. My toolbox is always happy to make room for a new quality tool.

I can already tell that the workflow has been streamlined but a "re-learning curve" has been introduced, which I am fine with IF it will actually be an improvement for me and the way I currently work. I understand no can answer that but if someone just discusses a few things they like/dislike about the new flow, I am sure I will be able to relate to your likes/dislikes and decide for myself... seeing as we have been using the same program for many years. Give or take an upgrade.

Anything that anyone can chime in for someone who has went from Sonar6 PE to 8, then 8.5 and now considering X1. Would be GREATLY appreciated.

EDIT: I am sure a number of you understand, so many things to buy... but limited funds to go around.

I just got Win7 ult64bit... got lucky on an Ebay listing. Picked it up for $114 with shipping, upgrade version. Had to buy a new hard drive and just got the M-audio CX8 speakers... HUGE price drop there and I have still yet to upgrade from Komplete 6 to 7.... /sigh

Back to my search....

Rob

Rob I'll give you my take for what it's worth since I'm probably one of the ones that is not totally happy with X1. I'll break it down for you the best I can. My issues with X1 are due to me being so locked in with the old methods. There is definitely a learning curve with X1 and you will need to decide for yourself if that curve is beneficial as well as worth putting in the time for.
 
That said, the options and new stuff in X1 blows every version of Sonar away. The screen sets, drag and drop abilities and over all control make it extremely powerful and everything is right in your face at any screen. It's definitely a very powerful DAW and has loads of new options that for most people, will make working easier IF they have the time to learn the new system.
 
Another issue for me is the use of short cuts etc. I just have a way that works for me to where I've never had to rely on that stuff before and I find myself using more clicks to get things done. My biggest problem with X1 is remembering where everything is. I can't tell you how long I have looked for things either to find them eventually, or never find them at all. This frustrates me when time is money.
 
If you have a business or will be using this DAW for clients, I recommend working with it in your spare time for about a month to test it out and see how it behaves for you. For me, other than a few Kontakt issues, I've worked the bawls out of X1 purposely without saving in between...and it doesn't crash on me. The same stuff done in 8.5 would result in a crash sooner or later. But NEVER in X1. So for me, it's definitely been more stable.
 
Pro channel etc: The compressors work very well and I think they stack up against the Waves and UAD versions of the 4k bus comp. I'm not a fan of the 76 type compressor no matter what form it comes in. I like full control over how my compressors work so that one never gets any use from me.
 
I'm not crazy about the eq because I like to be able to hone in on specific frequencies. The eq works well though if you like that type of eq. I personally wish with all my heart that the Bakers would allow us to use the Sonitus eq's onboard like previous versions as a choice. The reason being, I'm so used to clicking on the eq grid to bring up the eq and when I do that with the current eq, it adjusts the frequencies and it drives me crazy. And even if I bring the Sonitus on a track, I can't look at a grid any longer and see my changes. I really miss that to be honest. The only fix for that is for me to create an old template where the Sonitus eq is already a part of the onboard mixer....but of course then PC is completely disabled. It would be nice to at least use the compression but you get one way or the other.
 
Midi editing has been a bit of a nightmare for me. Seth has just posted some new ways to work with it to another poster which I'm going to try, but I don't know if I'll be able to conform to this. The whole thing with me is I'm just so set in my ways and happy with how I do things in 8.5, I really am having problems changing those ways. When I have tried to adapt, it hasn't made things any easier for me or made things better so to speak...if that makes sense?
 
So all in all, I think X1 is a definite improvement, but the way you have to work inside it may not be an improvement to everyone. You just have to try it to see if it's something that would enhance your recording experience. In my opinion, though I have enjoyed quite a bit of what X1 has to offer, I would be perfectly fine if 8.5 was the last DAW I ever purchased. I'm so happy with it that X2 would have to totally blow my face off for me to even consider purchasing it. Though X1 has always worked pretty well for me even with its original release, it's taken quite a few months for them to sort things out that were extremely annoying for me. You figure, most of us purchased it in December. Only recently have *some* of us been able to really dive into it. Though this is expected with a totally newly designed DAW, it's not something that I welcome on this end. I would urge those that are completely happy with 8.5 with no problems to stay where they are. Those that may feel the need to be adventurous or don't mind learning something new will most likely welcome X1 with open arms. It all depends on what your situation is and what you do, man. It works, it's solid, it has a few things I'd like to see fixed, but it's a really good DAW for all that it offers. It's just not totally for me due to how I'm so stuck in my ways. Hope this helps...best of luck in whatever you decide. :)

Well stated as usual, Bit:-)

Danny, I felt quite the same as you, specially in the midi editing. I'm slowly getting used to it, but yeah, that's been the hardest part, because I was fast and efficient in 8.5 editing. I see the changes as potentially being okay down the road, but man the learning curve is tough. 

I have 8.5 ready to go if I'm in a time crunch or get too frustrated. But lately, I've just been acclimating. Great objective posts.

I'd like to say that I don't like it when people attack the people at Cakewalk or, for that matter, anyone on the forum.  Better to be mature men and women and take responsibility for your own frustrations.  Nothing I , nor anyone else, makes is "perfect".  We are all flawed human beings in one way or another.  Since I've been using Cakewalk sequencers and DAWs since 1991 every day I think that shows my satisfaction with and confidence in their great software.  I complain from time to time--usually about the staff view and the very few bug fixes that would elevate it from a good midi input device to a great one.  I was in Boston a few weeks ago and went to Cakewalk to say hello and I was treated generously and kindly, and even though I dropped in unexpectedly, I was shown around and introduced to people.   Please separate your frustrations with the software (which, by the way, is very often user ignorance, user error, or user configuration problems) from the very talented, hard-working and dedicated human beings who are doing so much to offer us these new and powerful musical tools.

Jerry Gerber
www.jerrygerber.com

Well, after reading everyone's reply and taking into account my own thoughts, which I had plenty of time to do since our whole town was blacked out due to the storm the last night that ripped through, I decided to go ahead and grab it. Thanks everyone for the help. I REALLY appreciate it!!!

The time some of you obviously took to give me an informed view from real world users is something I only hope that some day I can give back or at least pay forward.

Rob

EDIT: The download sucks btw, at 90% I got "invalid user name and password" and now have to start over... and if the DL was any slower I'd think we were using squirrels to transfer the packets. hehehe

The DL is FAST now... someone was hogging bandwidth apparently. hehe