AnsweredIs a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one?

Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
Author
Kerch
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 34
  • Joined: 2013/10/10 10:34:19
  • Status: offline
2014/08/05 14:26:21 (permalink)

Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one?

Using Sonar X3 along with a Scarlett 6i6 audio interface. I'm starting to record vocals on a project using a condenser mic that's pretty sensitive, so I keep the input gain fairly low to avoid clipping. I have a set of headphones connected to the interface as my "monitor." The problem is, I can't get a mix that's loud enough for my preference. I'm recording on the "zero latency" setting with the 6i6, and I want to be able to hear the vocal in the headphones at a much higher volume than I'm able to generate now.
 
In doing a little googling, it seems that a "headphone amplifier" might be what I'm looking for. Does that sound like I'm on the right track, and if so, anyone have any recommendations for a good mid-range unit?
 
Thanks!
#1
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 13933
  • Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
  • Location: NYC
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 15:03:52 (permalink)
Are you sure you've exhausted the options with your Scarlett's software? If your input gain is loud enough (but without clipping naturally) then you should be able to get enough gain at the headphone output, although I have no experience of Scarletts.

Having said that, I have an RME Babyface and I've heard people complain that the headphone outputs are too quiet. Can't understand it myself, because I find that I get to the level past which I would consider the level damaging to my hearing quite easily. I could never understand why anyone would want it louder. Pete Townsend ruined his hearing by listening to headphone mixes too loud in the studio.

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
#2
Kerch
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 34
  • Joined: 2013/10/10 10:34:19
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 15:09:53 (permalink)
Thanks. Yeah, I think I have exhausted the stock options on the Scarlett. I'm not looking to blast my eardrums into oblivion, but just want to be able to feel in total control of the vocal without having to strain. Don't seem to be able to get to that point with this setup. I can probably fool with the gain input a little more, but I sing fairly hard at times, and I've noticed clipping artifacts unless I set it fairly low as well as incorporating pads on both the mic and the Scarlett. I'd rather keep the input lower and then boost it after the fact to avoid that. The tradeoff seems to be a mix level lower than I'm personally comfortable with. I'm really looking for a way to boost that monitor mix level.
#3
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
  • Total Posts : 26036
  • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
  • Location: Everett, WA USA
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 15:13:02 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby Kerch 2014/08/05 15:14:35
Some headphones benefit greatly from a headphone amplifier. It depends on their sensitivity and impedance, both of which vary greatly from model to model. Headphone amps like the ones built in to your interface are typically low-powered and relatively high impedance, and may be inadequate for certain headphones. 
 
Beware the hype around headphone amplifiers, though. Audiophiles make a big deal about expensive headphone amps but there's no need to spend hundreds of dollars on one. Not for monitoring, anyhow. You just need to make sure it's powerful enough. Buy locally or order from somebody like Sweetwater that has a no-hassle return policy.
 
The one I use was quite inexpensive and does a great job, but I can't recommend it because it's no longer manufactured. However, there is a unit from ART that's similar and also inexpensive. It's also a two-channel mixer, so you can have volume controls for both the cue mix and your microphone right at hand. If it's like the one I have, it'll be PLENTY loud. I have mine mounted on a short boom attached to the microphone stand, very convenient when you're both artist and engineer. 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#4
Kerch
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 34
  • Joined: 2013/10/10 10:34:19
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 15:22:05 (permalink)
That looks like it's exactly what I'm looking for, bitflipper, thanks! Just ordered it.
#5
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
Administrator
  • Total Posts : 814
  • Joined: 2009/02/06 15:25:40
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 15:42:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kerch 2014/08/05 16:16:45
Another cost effective solution is the *gasp* Behringer 4/8 port headphone pre-amps. You can find them used pretty easily on the ebay or local listings. 2 other Cakewalkers and I have been using it for years now at our rehearsal space. They have dual inputs too so you can send 2 different mixes for the performer to blend. I've used a variety of cans with them and they all get plenty (too) loud.

Best Regards,
Seth
#6
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 18001
  • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 16:03:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kerch 2014/08/05 16:15:30
Although the MixControl options are pretty thorough what I do when recording to get a good balance is use busses within Sonar to adjust things as I track. I set the Scarlett input trim (or now my mixer via the line ins on the Scarlett) so that the track within Sonar is getting a good signal and then adjust things as needed in Sonar's bus section.
 
So basically every instrument gets a bus (drums, bass guitar, vocals, any synths all have a bus). I group all the related tracks to their own bus, (all drums to a bus, all rhythm guits to a bus, etc...). The track levels are set so their busses are all getting a decent mix/level.
 
I also create a Pre-Master bus that everything gets routed to before the master and then that premaster gets routed to the master (I do this for various reasons but I won't get into that but one factor pertains to this).
 
So... if I am tracking and need to hear the input of the track being recorded or any other instrument I just turn up/turn down the relevant buss. If I do not want to mess with the mix of the already tracked busses what I can do is send the input of the new track being recorded straight to the Master buss and simply adjust the Pre-Master buss level to where it needs to be in relation to the new track being recorded (it is very easy to just put that Pre-Master bus level back to where it was as opposed to readjusting all the other busses).
 
Once a decent mix between the Pre-Master buss and the new track is set then I can crank up the headphone level knob on the interface as needed.
 
You have to remember that once you have your input trim set on the hardware THAT is the level being recorded no matter what level the track or buss faders are in Sonar (you can have the track muted and it will still record if you have it armed... I did this yesterday to test it actually).
 
So yeah... a headphone amplifier is a handy device to have but your 6i6 actually has TWO of them from what I just read. It is one of the most useful features on the Scarlett series. When I bought my 18i6 I was freaking out before I got it because I thought I would have to buy a separate headphone/monitor controller. When it showed up I saw I had individual knobs for both the mains and the headphone jack. SWEET!!!
 
Anyway... you will likely find uses for your new headphone thingie (they are extremely useful) but there is more than one way to skin the proverbial feline... especially when you are using a Focusrite product with Sonar.
 
Cheers.
 
#7
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 18001
  • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 16:19:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kerch 2014/08/05 16:16:09
And I may have completley missed the point by ignoring the "zero latency" aspect of your post (I have never needed to use that feature because even with stacks of tracks, synths and effects everything runs fine on my machine with X3 and mostly worked fine with X1 and 2). If you have serious system problems that are preventing you from recording at lower latencies that are forcing you to resort to the Zero Latency option here are some suggestions that will allow you to use the method(s) I described above by freeing up system resources.
 
1) "Freeze" your synths and effects (this is the "snowflake: button on each track and will temporarily bounce all synths and effects to audio. You  can easily reverse the "Freeze" by clicking the button again gaining access to the effects and synths.)
 
2) "Archive" any unnecessary tracks (this is the A button on each track). It will remove all the tracks from what Sonar/your system is processing and again is easily reversible by clicking the A button again. Examples of tracks to archive are any muted "scratch" tracks or leads or anything that isn't needed for you to do your new track (like maybe you just need to hear the drums and guitar to do your vocals... you could archive all the other tracks temporarily until you are ready to mix). Also a good practice is once you have tracked a part and comped the version you want to use clone the track then "flatten" it or bounce it in the second track then delete all the other clips/take lanes. That way that track is only playing and processing ONE clip instead of multiple clips. Then you archive the original track (the one that has all the original takes) which keeps them from using system resources (even if a clip is muted Sonar will still "see" them and get ready to play them if you unmute them or whatever so archiving is like deleting them without actually losing the work).
 
In drastic situations you can do a stereo mix down of your project as is into a new track then archive all other tracks so that way the ONLY track, aside from the one you are recording into, is that one stereo track which is obviously a LOT less resource intensive than even a simple 8 track project.
 
You may know all that but whatevs... I'm trying to distract myself from some other things that are making me hyper and typing up things like this is calming.
 
lol
 
#8
Kerch
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 34
  • Joined: 2013/10/10 10:34:19
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 16:22:53 (permalink)
Beepster
And I may have completley missed the point by ignoring the "zero latency" aspect of your post (I have never needed to use that feature because even with stacks of tracks, synths and effects everything runs fine on my machine with X3 and mostly worked fine with X1 and 2). If you have serious system problems that are preventing you from recording at lower latencies that are forcing you to resort to the Zero Latency option here are some suggestions that will allow you to use the method(s) I described above by freeing up system resources.
 
1) "Freeze" your synths and effects (this is the "snowflake: button on each track and will temporarily bounce all synths and effects to audio. You  can easily reverse the "Freeze" by clicking the button again gaining access to the effects and synths.)
 
2) "Archive" any unnecessary tracks (this is the A button on each track). It will remove all the tracks from what Sonar/your system is processing and again is easily reversible by clicking the A button again. Examples of tracks to archive are any muted "scratch" tracks or leads or anything that isn't needed for you to do your new track (like maybe you just need to hear the drums and guitar to do your vocals... you could archive all the other tracks temporarily until you are ready to mix). Also a good practice is once you have tracked a part and comped the version you want to use clone the track then "flatten" it or bounce it in the second track then delete all the other clips/take lanes. That way that track is only playing and processing ONE clip instead of multiple clips. Then you archive the original track (the one that has all the original takes) which keeps them from using system resources (even if a clip is muted Sonar will still "see" them and get ready to play them if you unmute them or whatever so archiving is like deleting them without actually losing the work).
 
In drastic situations you can do a stereo mix down of your project as is into a new track then archive all other tracks so that way the ONLY track, aside from the one you are recording into, is that one stereo track which is obviously a LOT less resource intensive than even a simple 8 track project.
 
You may know all that but whatevs... I'm trying to distract myself from some other things that are making me hyper and typing up things like this is calming.
 
lol
 




 
That is all great info, Beepster, thank you for taking the time!!
#9
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 18001
  • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 16:27:38 (permalink)
Cool, mang. Honestly my brain is on fire with annoying bureaucratic bullpizzle at the moment so it was cathartic unleashing all that. I'm just glad you found it helpful.
 
Cheers. ;-)
#10
Kerch
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 34
  • Joined: 2013/10/10 10:34:19
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 16:34:29 (permalink)
Beepster
Cool, mang. Honestly my brain is on fire with annoying bureaucratic bullpizzle at the moment so it was cathartic unleashing all that. I'm just glad you found it helpful.
 
Cheers. ;-)





Definitely. Whatever helps put out the brain fire. :)
 
When I'm doing the vocals, I usually mute everything except drums, bass and (if there) an acoustic track, and I do tend to separate certain instrumentation types to their own respective buses.
 
The "freezing" aspect of tracks is relatively new to me, though, so that was especially helpful. I'm sure there are probably more things I can do within Scarlett's Mix Control, but I find those routing options fairly confusing, tbh, which probably speaks more to my lack of knowledge. I don't get what options like "DAW 6 and 7" are, for example, or what that corresponds to within "Sonar." "Monitor 1 and 2" and "DAW 1 and 2" I get, but not sure about anything beyond that.
#11
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 18001
  • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 16:49:38 (permalink)
Well to be honest even though the MixControl stuff is supposed to be "easy" to configure it always confused me and I found other ways to get things done anyway. It mostly seems more useful for if you need to send different mixes to different band members while they track simultaneously.
 
The only times I open it are to check input levels (because I find even if Sonar isn't clipping the MixControl may be) and to change my ASIO buffer settings.
 
I will say that, if you don't already, it is EXTREMELY helpful to have busses for ALL instruments. Even if you only have one bass track or one guitar track or whatever having those routed to a bus makes so many things so much easier. I never used busses before I got Sonar (didn't even really know what the heck they were) and good lord did it ever make things unnecessarily difficult.
#12
sock monkey
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 547
  • Joined: 2011/11/06 12:12:08
  • Location: Tree Top Studios
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 20:43:54 (permalink)
I own the Scarlett 6i6 so might be able to help you. 
At first I did have trouble figuring out the mix control and I was seeing clipping of the meters inside the mix control GUI that freaked me out. The mix controls levels have absolutely no bearing on your record level. They are for monitoring only. And they seem to show output and input clipping even though you will not hear it. 
 
I just recorded a vocal a few minutes ago. 
He's the drift. 
 
So it's very simple to have your mike roast your ear drums and turn the music down to the exact level. 
 
You say your using a good condenser mike and it seems to clip sometimes. Is that in Sonars track meter?? Because that's the only place it matters. 
You might be turning your mike down way to far and if you go by the mix control meters you will be mislead. 
Anyway, in the mix control, turn the fader for your mike channel on full...pin it!! and ignor the red. I found out it has no effect on the recording, turn it off and your level in Sonar will stay the same. It is the level control on the front panel that adjusts the input level. 
Now turn up the headphones until it's where you want it, for me this is about 3 O clock.  
Now turn up the DAW/ MON 1-2 output ( second pair from the right) until Sonars playback is just right. 
 
If you are still having to turn the mike down below a normal level then I would either practice mike technique or buy a mixer or pre amp and a compressor. 
 
 

Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
  
#13
sock monkey
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 547
  • Joined: 2011/11/06 12:12:08
  • Location: Tree Top Studios
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 20:52:27 (permalink)
Oh and Beepster, there's a huge difference between the entry level Scarletts and the Firewire models as far as RTL performance goes.    
 
The 2i2 -2i4 6i6 ( 18i4?)  have unacceptable round trip latency for real time monitoring. I have about 32 ms RTL.  But I don't use the zero latency setting either. I'm not sure what difference it makes. I'm using what ever the dang thing defaulted to when I installed it and rarely pay attention to it unless I'm fussing with the mike input headphone thing. 
 
Bottom line is, unless you toggle the input echo in Sonar and listen to what's passed though all those converters and stuff, your using zero latency monitoring because your headphones / monitors are patched directly to the inputs. If you turn on input echo in Sonar you will hear a delay. All interfaces work this way. 
 

Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
  
#14
Splat
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8672
  • Joined: 2010/12/29 15:28:29
  • Location: Mars.
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 21:15:32 (permalink)
I don't see any reason for a 'headphone amplifier'. You already have them in your Scarlett and they should be pretty good (sorry I realise you have made a purchase).

Within mix control you turn up the volume of the mic, and if that isn't enough turn down the volume of what is coming out the DAW (Sonar). In addition there is an overall volume.

In Sonar make sure the master bus volume is set at the default position and forget it.

BTW If you are hearing your voice through the DAW in mix control whilst recording then you are not using the zero latency features, echo in the Sonar vox track should be muted. If there is any reverb required route it to a bus and make sure it is 100% wet. You don't want to hear the dry vocal coming out the DAW unless you are playing back. When playing back you can mute the mic in mix control.

So you've done this and volume fluctuates too much? Check the levels you recorded first, is there really a massive change? If that's unacceptable you need a good preamp/compressor after the mic and/or a more suitable mic.

Personally I don't bother with zero latency monitoring any more. Too fiddly and I find the results without it very acceptable with my Focusrite Saffire, and you can a VST compressor into the chain (no need to fork out for a real compressor).
 
[Edited to cross out an incorrect statement]
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/08/06 16:14:01

Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
#15
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 86000
  • Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
  • Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 21:31:19 (permalink)
Some great advice here.
 
I have one other suggestion.
 
 
SING LOUDER!!!!!!!
#16
Splat
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8672
  • Joined: 2010/12/29 15:28:29
  • Location: Mars.
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/05 21:38:15 (permalink)
Here is a very useful mix control video, once you understand the inside/out you are empowered and will realise just how brilliant and flexible it is. It will no longer be 'fiddly' and you will wonder why other audio interfaces don't work this way.

http://youtu.be/M1avPHhiGw8

Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
#17
Kev999
Max Output Level: -36 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3922
  • Joined: 2007/05/01 14:22:54
  • Location: Victoria, Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/06 02:54:15 (permalink)
Kerch
...I have a set of headphones...



You haven't said which headphones you are using. I'm just wondering if maybe it's the headphones that are the problem.

SonarPlatinum(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)
FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1
Audient:iD22+ASP800|KRK:VXT6|+various-outboard-gear|+guitars&basses, etc.
Having fun at work lately
#18
MacFurse
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 324
  • Joined: 2013/11/10 07:25:54
  • Location: Newcastle - Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/06 07:15:38 (permalink)
Humm. Dont have this problem either with the Scarlett. There is some good advice already, particularly about the levels. Just make sure your not clipping in the track within Sonar. I use an outboard compressor/pre amp to get my level at best, and still go through the Scarlett mic amp, keeping my record level as close to -3db as possible.
 
To get ample volume from the microphone/headphone for both me and the vocalist, before I start, I bounce a track with a mix of what I want the vocalist to hear. I find I usually only want the basics like bass/drums/rythym guitars etc. No lead, distorted guitars etc. But that varies song to song/ singer to singer. Once I have my bounced track for the vocalist to follow, I mute everything else, then it's just one fader to control the music. I find I have that down somewhere around the -20db mark or so, which allows you to turn the headphone volume right up, usually to around the 3 oclock mark like someone else said, which is quite loud. Any louder is simply too much I find, and will tire not only me, but the vocalist very quickly. The Scarlett has heaps of headphone volume onboard, so I agree, you do not need a headphone amp. Having said that, I also usually use a headphone amp for other's in the room to monitor what's going on, so you will find a use for your new purchase.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Dave

Platinum. i7 4771 3.5ghz. ECU H87 mobo with 3 monitor support. 16gb Ripjaws 1600mhz. Focusrite 18i20. 2 x 250gb Samsung EVO SSD's OP/Programs. 2x1TB Seagate Baracuda sata3 data drives. 200gb sata2 bootable drive for online and downloading only. Seagate 2tb USB 3.0 backup drive.  2x27in monitors. Rode K2 valve mic. Sontronics STC-1 pair. Studio Projects B1 condenser. SM58B. SM57B. Presonus Eureka Preamp.
#19
sock monkey
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 547
  • Joined: 2011/11/06 12:12:08
  • Location: Tree Top Studios
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/06 11:02:05 (permalink)
Cakealex - one thing- 
 
"and you can a VST compressor into the chain (no need to fork out for a real compressor)." 
 
This is not true, You cannot compress before you hit the A/D with a VST compressor which is the why some of us work this way in the first place. It is one of those topics that can start a long discussion because it falls under the category of "technique". But there's a goodly number of engineers who will put a compressor on the pre amp to catch any overs. Once an over has hit your A/D your hooped. The argument will always go, well then just turn it down...but myself I have worked this way since the 4 track tape deck days and it works for me. A fast attack and a very low ratio will catch explosives and bad mike technique. And without actually compressing the vocal. 
 
People get confused about the Zero Latency monitoring and there was just a thread about it. Simply put, all interfaces have a way to listen to your input either in the cans or up on the monitors. You then blend in the output of the DAW  and go at it. All DAWS adjust the playback so that overdubs are in sync. That's why your DAW needs to calculate the latency. 
Everyone should take the time to test it's accuracy. 
 
Ya it's to bad the OP ordered the Headphone Amp before waiting for a few more replies. Not a bad thing to have as they are handy for recording bands and groups. The Scarlett has 2 (loud) Headphone amps built in but you would want the outboard unit for using the rear outputs for a cue mix. 

Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
  
#20
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 18001
  • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/06 11:37:31 (permalink)
I think as Sonar users we are a little spoiled by not really having to contemplate latency calculations to keep everything in sync because Sonar just does it automagically in the background. I had never even considered such things until about a year and a half ago when I was plowing through the free month of Groove3 the bakers gave us (man I wish they'd do that again... lol). A lot of the more general mixing vids I watched were Pro Tools based and a couple of them detailed the process of engaging that tool or whatever to gauge how much latency is being produced by a particular effect and then how to compensate for it so everything was playing back at the same time. Seemed complicated at the time and I'm sure there are ways to avoid having to go through that process everytime you insert a plug in PT but it was very eye opening in regards to how much of a PITA things can be when you don't have idiot proof features doing the grunt work for you.
#21
Splat
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8672
  • Joined: 2010/12/29 15:28:29
  • Location: Mars.
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/06 15:58:52 (permalink)
sock monkey
Cakealex - one thing- 
 
"and you can a VST compressor into the chain (no need to fork out for a real compressor)." 
 
This is not true, You cannot compress before you hit the A/D with a VST compressor which is the why some of us work this way in the first place.




That is true my bad - I was typing when fast asleep.~ The rest of the post was accurate though.
This reminds me I need to get a cloudlifter for my SM7B to increase it's gain. Works well with the focusrite but I definitely would like more gain ideally.
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/08/06 16:06:46

Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
#22
Sanderxpander
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3873
  • Joined: 2013/09/30 10:08:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/06 17:18:06 (permalink)
A compressor doesn't really fix bad mic technique or bad vocal technique. Not saying the OP has that, but it's worth considering if there are massive differences in the dynamics of the recording.
I do use a preamp/compressor for tracking vocals but it's usually set to work very mildly. I tell them to sing it again if I really can't work with the recorded material.
#23
Kerch
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 34
  • Joined: 2013/10/10 10:34:19
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/07 07:10:23 (permalink)
Thanks for all the replies, guys. I did purchase the ART mymonitor, received it yesterday, and i'm really liking it so far with the minimal time I've been able to spend on it. Luckily I can easily return it if I'm able to find some way to finally get what I wanted within the Scarlett itself, so I'll be using some of these suggestions today and fooling with it one last time. 
 
As to some of the specifics asked, I'm using an AKG C214 mic, along with AKG headphones. Can't remember the model of those phones; they're not top of the line, not terrible either. Decent mid-range pair. 
 
I think my issues comes down to the gain I've been setting on my mic. When I set it initially, I would carefully watch the meters as I sang some test passages, and everything stayed in the green, no yellow/red. But when I would play back. louder passages would have a sort of clipped sound, almost as if someone had applied a way too-heavy brick wall compression on it. I had a pad that came with the mic switched on while singing. 
 
Anyway, I found I could remedy this by lowering the gain volume to the point where the green level indicator on the Scarlett barely comes on while singing these sections. The result is that the vocal doesn't have that "overly compressed" or distorted sound, but the result of THAT has been that the levels in the mix have been too low for me to really hear well, even with everything in Sonar's mix control cranked to full volume for the vocal and lowered as much as possible for the music mix. I tried to remedy that by applying input echo, getting the latency low and adding some compressor to the back end in Sonar while singing, and that's helped, but has also brought some other issues into the mix (pardon the pun), i.e., not totally comfortable now with the processed sound of the vocal coming through. I know, nitpickery. 
 
I think a lot of it comes from how I sing certain parts - very loud, very hard, and my songs tend to usually have some pretty big changes in dynamics. I've already done separate tracks for a "softer" verse and a "harder" chorus, so I'm not singing both of these parts on the same track during the same take. 
 
So yeah, maybe there's a technique thing involved that I need to work on, but I do know enough as far as when to back off the mic, get up on the mic, etc. In any case, thank you for all the great replies. I will have some time this afternoon to fool with this some more, but hopefully the above explains my situation a little more clearly. 
#24
MacFurse
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 324
  • Joined: 2013/11/10 07:25:54
  • Location: Newcastle - Australia
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/07 07:49:09 (permalink)
OK. A lot of that now makes a lot more sense. My wife is an extremely loud singer, and mic technique is everything for her, and she is the reason I initially went down the pre-amp/comp on the input stage. I only use it in moderation, but it helps to smooth out some of the peaks and keep the low volumes up there. But my biggest trick with her is mic placement, both in distance, and direction. I turn my mike, a Rode K2 valve job, just slightly to one side so that she sings across it, which allows me to keep her distance still close enough to get the 'close proximity' effect from my mic, which enhances the low mids a touch. So I think, by you knowing the probable cause, that you need to just keep working at it to find a happy solution. All the best..

Platinum. i7 4771 3.5ghz. ECU H87 mobo with 3 monitor support. 16gb Ripjaws 1600mhz. Focusrite 18i20. 2 x 250gb Samsung EVO SSD's OP/Programs. 2x1TB Seagate Baracuda sata3 data drives. 200gb sata2 bootable drive for online and downloading only. Seagate 2tb USB 3.0 backup drive.  2x27in monitors. Rode K2 valve mic. Sontronics STC-1 pair. Studio Projects B1 condenser. SM58B. SM57B. Presonus Eureka Preamp.
#25
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 18001
  • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/07 08:12:06 (permalink)
That is definitely the type of thing that a) would require some kind of input limiting/compression (which is destructive and I personally think should be done AFTER tracking unless you've got some REALLY nice output gear and know how to use it), b) do multiple takes as you said, one with your input level set high enough to get a healthy signal for the quiet parts and a second one at a lower level so the loud parts don't clip your input channel (notice I said input channel... NOT the track in Sonar... I will explain further later) or c) go old school and have someone in the room riding the input fader (they would have to know the parts so they know when to do it and how far they have to go down in volume which is a simple calculation but who wants someone else in the room... I know I don't, especially when I'm signing... lol). Of course you could do that last one yourself but that might distract from your performance.
 
Now as far as overloading the channel input versus Sonar... the ONLY place you really need to worry about clipping is at the interface (if you aren't using any other outboard stuff like a preamp). Even if the clip lights in the track are going off it doesn't matter if the clip lights are staying out of the red on the interface.
 
The clip lights in Sonar aren't showing actual clipping that will be recorded (until when you mix down... then you may get digital distortion which is definitely unpleasant). What Sonar WILL show when you have recorded a clipped input is a white vertical line printed on the waveform. If you aren't getting any of those and you aren't HEARING any distortion/clipping then it does not matter what the track meters say.
 
From there you can simply automate if need be in the mix to even the levels out.
 
So do not look at the track faders in Sonar. Look at your interface LED's (which unfortunately can be a little inaccurate and they don't hold peaks) and right on the waveform for those thin vertical white lines. Most importantly LISTEN for clipping because that's all that really matters anyway.
 
I say this because you are saying you are getting yellow and red lights in Sonar. I get that quite often when tracking because I want a good strong signal and I know that as long as I'm good at the interface and I'm not seeing those white lines/hearing anything.
 
I used to be afraid of the track meter lights in Sonar and adjusted my input to avoid them. The result was really weak signals to work with which sucks. Things are much better now.
 
You may know all that but thought I would mention it.
 
Also I'm still learning so if I made any mistakes maybe some of the more experienced guys can correct me.
 
Cheers.
#26
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 18001
  • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/07 08:15:04 (permalink)
Oh yeah... mic dynamics is REALLY important too. Pros know when to back off the mic (loud parts/screams) and when to get right up close (quieter/more delicate work). I'm sure there are vids on youtube showing this.
 
Think of your microphone as an instrument that you need to "learn" to get the best out of. This type of mic control takes practice but makes a HUGE difference.
 
#27
Splat
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8672
  • Joined: 2010/12/29 15:28:29
  • Location: Mars.
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/07 08:24:31 (permalink)
Kerch
Thanks for all the replies, guys. I did purchase the ART mymonitor, received it yesterday, and i'm really liking it so far with the minimal time I've been able to spend on it. Luckily I can easily return it if I'm able to find some way to finally get what I wanted within the Scarlett itself, so I'll be using some of these suggestions today and fooling with it one last time. 
 
As to some of the specifics asked, I'm using an AKG C214 mic, along with AKG headphones. Can't remember the model of those phones; they're not top of the line, not terrible either. Decent mid-range pair. 
 
I think my issues comes down to the gain I've been setting on my mic. When I set i hit initially, I would carefully watch the meters as I sang some test passages, and everything stayed in the green, no yellow/red. But when I would play back. louder passages would have a sort of clipped sound, almost as if someone had applied a way too-heavy brick wall compression on it. I had a pad that came with the mic switched on while singing. 
 
Anyway, I found I could remedy this by lowering the gain volume to the point where the green level indicator on the Scarlett barely comes on while singing these sections. The result is that the vocal doesn't have that "overly compressed" or distorted sound, but the result of THAT has been that the levels in the mix have been too low for me to really hear well, even with everything in Sonar's mix control cranked to full volume for the vocal and lowered as much as possible for the music mix. I tried to remedy that by applying input echo, getting the latency low and adding some compressor to the back end in Sonar while singing, and that's helped, but has also brought some other issues into the mix (pardon the pun), i.e., not totally comfortable now with the processed sound of the vocal coming through. I know, nitpickery. 
 
I think a lot of it comes from how I sing certain parts - very loud, very hard, and my songs tend to usually have some pretty big changes in dynamics. I've already done separate tracks for a "softer" verse and a "harder" chorus, so I'm not singing both of these parts on the same track during the same take. 
 
So yeah, maybe there's a technique thing involved that I need to work on, but I do know enough as far as when to back off the mic, get up on the mic, etc. In any case, thank you for all the great replies. I will have some time this afternoon to fool with this some more, but hopefully the above explains my situation a little more clearly. 


There is:

Mic gain on your focusrite. Make sure the levels are right for recording. Check the levels for recording within Sonar! Ignore the levels you hear!

Then....

Gain/trim knob for track in Sonar. Are you making full use of this on playback?

Volume (fader)/for track in Sonar. Generally you keep it around the default setting when recording.

And you have the mic volume for monitoring in mix control IF you are using the zero latency feature.

The levels you record and the levels you monitor whilst recording should be viewed upon separately.

Consider putting a VST compressor into a track for playback purposes along with your reverb effect.
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/08/07 08:31:18

Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
#28
Beepster
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 18001
  • Joined: 2012/05/11 19:11:24
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/07 08:26:06 (permalink)
Aaaaaannnddd just one more opinion then I'll shut up.
 
Even though I use the headphone control on the Scarlett I would very much like to have a headphone amp/control. Why? Because right now I am chained to my DAW while tracking. If I wanted to move into the next room to avoid computer fan noise on say an acoustic guit track or just to have a little more room to move around (my studio is tiny) I can't. If I had a headphone thingie then I could just run a cable from the interface to the headphone amp and I'm good to go. Heck even in the studio I have to be much closer to my desk then I want to be and I have to keep my interface front and center instead of tucking it away somewhere a little more convenient.
 
So consider that before sending it back. They are indeed useful for more reasons than just having a level control for your phones.
 
Cheers.
#29
sock monkey
Max Output Level: -80 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 547
  • Joined: 2011/11/06 12:12:08
  • Location: Tree Top Studios
  • Status: offline
Re: Is a "headphone amplifier" what I need? If so, any suggestions on which one? 2014/08/07 08:38:14 (permalink)
as I sang some test passages, and everything stayed in the green, no yellow/red. But when I would play back. louder passages would have a sort of clipped sound, almost as if someone had applied a way too-heavy brick wall compression on it."
 
Here seems to be telling the story... If the Scarlett and Sonar do not show clipping yet you GET clipping, this points at something wrong with the mike. 
 
 

Cakelab - Sonar X3e Studio   
Singer Songwriter, Solo Performer, Acoustic Duo and semi pro Sound Monkey.   
  
#30
Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1