I am a trained pianist who reads notation. But I did a piano and orchestra piece using only vsts ,entirely free timing without metronome, without notation. All editing is done in PRV view. At first I lament the lack of features in it's notation view having used Finale before. The more I used PRV view the power it's hidden power is revealed to me. Now I think cakewalk's PRV view is awesome and allows me to place my notes precisely anywhere I want. Now I am heavyly depended on PRV view. I have demoed Live and Reason before and I don't thing neither has the in depth features of Sonar's PRV view. 
 
If there is any new features that I desired in X4 that would be a built in mastering suite like Ozone 5 and a pumped up Matrix view that rival "you know who".

How about a feature where you can select a range on the timeline and there is a read out in SONAR that tells you how long the selection is in H:M:S:F?

mike_mccue
How about a feature where you can select a range on the timeline and there is a read out in SONAR that tells you how long the selection is in H:M:S:F?

A feature like this would be great when producing jingles. Creating a piece of music that is exactly 60-seconds long is tricky, usually achieved only after much trial-and-error with various tempos and arrangements.
 
Since I commonly set up a 1- or 2-bar count off, there's always a short amount of dead space at the front that affects the total timing. I have to click at the end of my music, note the total time, click at the end of the count off, note the count off time...and then subtract the count off time from the end-of-music time, to see if the tempo I've set brings me out to :60. 
 
It sure would be a lot quicker and easier if I could just select the range containing music and look at a read out. 

melmyers
Since I commonly set up a 1- or 2-bar count off, there's always a short amount of dead space at the front that affects the total timing.

 
Is there any particular reason why you don't use the metronome to give a one or two-bar countoff so the jingle starts at 0:00? You can have the metronome click only during the countoff, then shut up for the rest of the recording.
 

I have to click at the end of my music, note the total time, click at the end of the count off, note the count off time...and then subtract the count off time from the end-of-music time, to see if the tempo I've set brings me out to :60.

 
If you can use the metronome for the countoff so the jingle starts at 0:00, it gets much simpler:

1. Set the timeline to H:M:S:F
2. At 60 seconds, insert a marker. Call it "End" or whatever, and make sure you check "Lock to SMPTE Time."

Now no matter what you to do the tempo, the marker named "End" will always indicate the 60-second point. If you set the timeline to MBT (or add an MBT timeline), you can mess with the tempo until the place you want in the music lines up with 60 seconds. For example with 4/4, you can see that at 144.1 BPM, you have exactly 36 measures. at 128, you have exactly 32 measures...and so on.
 
If you can't use the countoff for some reason and have to start at a place other than 0:00, at least you can use the marker to indicate the position of where the jingle is supposed to end, regardless of what you do with the tempo and MBT ruler. 

I'd like to see communication with hardware like Pro Tools did Eleven Rack.
 
I don't know but I imagine guitarists are a large percentage of Cakes customer base so it's easy for
me to see that if Cake did something like team up with Fractals Axe unit to store/recall settings it would
be a major plus.
I know if X3 wouldn't have been so good I would have made the change because not only being able to get the sounds from units like the Axe and Eleven Rack just aren't happening with sims and having the settings for the units
being stored with the tracks for recall is big. Big enough that I'm sure it didn't hurt Pro Tools sales any.
 
I'm not holding my breath but seeing Melodyn show did give hope.

AT
My most fervent wish is for a more live environment for the matrix.  Building on the matrix, but complete control over mixing functions for each button and channel.  Basically, something like the iPad Scrathpad built-in.  A 16 x 16 grid or something, with a linear time line on top of it to place longer bits (and keep track of where one is). 

If Sonar doesn't beef up the matrix view, don't forget you can always rewire Live into Sonar.

John
Kenny I think you mean Screensets. I would look at them and try to see how powerful they are. 
 
I know what you mean about Samplitude having modes but in the end all that is is controlling what is shown. Sonar doesn't do that. Everything is at your fingertips at all times with Sonar. But, you could have a project with most everything hidden for example.

Yes John you are right I meant to say Screen sets …I have used a few in a per project setting ...
I'm thinking along the lines of global screen sets that I can recall in any project at will .
 
Yes SONAR does show every thing and my 15  inch lap top screen does not offer a lot of screen real estate ..
it is simply to way condensed ..even when I wear my reading glasses it becomes a strain in a long work session .
 
sure , I have tried to hide a few things and use the muti dock to recall task oriented things ..you know , synths plugs , track editing….console view , staff view ..
the thing about the other program is in some of these settings , the metering and the editing is much easier for me to see visually ...
 
thanks, 
 
Kenny

Anderton

melmyers
Since I commonly set up a 1- or 2-bar count off, there's always a short amount of dead space at the front that affects the total timing.

 
Is there any particular reason why you don't use the metronome to give a one or two-bar countoff so the jingle starts at 0:00? You can have the metronome click only during the countoff, then shut up for the rest of the recording.
 
If you can't use the countoff for some reason and have to start at a place other than 0:00, at least you can use the marker to indicate the position of where the jingle is supposed to end, regardless of what you do with the tempo and MBT ruler. 

I quit using the pre-timeline count off long ago, because it doesn't allow for any note to be recorded a split-second before the 1. Too often, I would finish a whole take and then discover that my very first note was missing because I had struck it a fraction of a millisecond before Sonar started recording. Including the count off into the time line and then beginning recording with the 2nd or 3rd measure has never caused me any problems, with the exception of the timing issue when writing jingles. 
 
Thanks for the SMPTE marker suggestion, though. I will try it.

Please sir, more?  

melmyers
 
I quit using the pre-timeline count off long ago, because it doesn't allow for any note to be recorded a split-second before the 1. Too often, I would finish a whole take and then discover that my very first note was missing because I had struck it a fraction of a millisecond before Sonar started recording. Including the count off into the time line and then beginning recording with the 2nd or 3rd measure has never caused me any problems, with the exception of the timing issue when writing jingles. 
 
Thanks for the SMPTE marker suggestion, though. I will try it.

Ah, so does this mean you're talking about MIDI and not audio? If so, given that life would be easier for timings if you could start at 0, wouldn't it be a worthwhile tradeoff to just enter that first note manually if it was before 0 and didn't register? My tradeoff is to hit the note a little bit late to make sure it "sticks," then move it to 0 after the recording is done.
 
Not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to get some insight into the process. Personally, I think Sonar's toolkit is well-suited to jingles, but if some feature could be added that would make really help the jingle-making process, I'd like to know about it.
 
I would think the idea of "0 is 0" is embedded deep in Sonar's personality, but that's just a guess. It might be simple to have a countoff not just add the metronome click, but enable a record buffer so anything recorded prior to 0 gets pushed forward to start at 0. Or something...

Anderton
 
Ah, so does this mean you're talking about MIDI and not audio? If so, given that life would be easier for timings if you could start at 0, wouldn't it be a worthwhile tradeoff to just enter that first note manually if it was before 0 and didn't register? My tradeoff is to hit the note a little bit late to make sure it "sticks," then move it to 0 after the recording is done.
 
Not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to get some insight into the process. Personally, I think Sonar's toolkit is well-suited to jingles, but if some feature could be added that would make really help the jingle-making process, I'd like to know about it.

I don't feel like you're giving me a hard time at all. I appreciate your interest.
 
MIDI AND audio are problematic, but the MIDI is easier to fix (as you pointed out) than audio. In one composition, I was trying to start with a guitar chord arpeggio, where I slowly strummed the individual strings, beginning a fraction of a second before 0. Since Sonar didn't record the first of my strum, I had to re-perform the part from the start, which was a time-consuming hassle, considering the fact that the rest of my take was like I wanted it. 
 
Doing as you suggest and hitting the first note a little bit late results in messing with the feel of the part from the word "go". At least for me, it's difficult to play a part with the feeling I'm going for, when I have to consciously delay the very first note. 
 
You are correct that Sonar has a toolkit well-suited to jingles. Mike McCue's suggestion to be able to "select a range on the timeline and there is a read out in SONAR that tells you how long the selection is in H:M:S:F" would make it better, and not just for determining the total length of a piece. 
 
For example, I typically arrange a 60-second jingle to begin with a few seconds of intro for announcer talk time, followed by the jingle sing, a bed for the main commercial voice-over, an end jingle sing, and then a short instrumental stinger to provide for the business address or whatever at the very end. In order to note the exact timings of the intro music, main instrumental bed and end stinger for an advertising copywriter, I now have to take the mix into Adobe Audition 3 and do as Mike suggests...because Audition will do it while Sonar will not. 
 
As I mentioned, I abandoned Sonar's pre-zero metronome count off and developed my system of including a count off in the timeline long ago, when I first started using Sonar 7. Whether I was recording a jingle or a song, having the program miss the first note of an otherwise pristine take became something that I could not live with. 

I started with Pro Audio 9, and while I have not upgraded every time, I have owned PA9 plus six versions of Sonar, culminating with X3. For the first time, I am completely happy with my DAW. The interface, the workflow, the included plugins, Melodyne, Addictive Drums, blah, blah, blah, and it is the most stable version yet.
 
But the timetable calls for a new version soon, and this is what I've been asking myself: What can Cakewalk possibly say or do to turn me against X3 and make me feel as if I must upgrade? Because that's what it comes down to. You don't change your DAW unless you feel as if the one you're using is inadequate or outdated. The love has to go out of it for you, and every time you load the program you feel resentful and frustrated. If they do a bunch of little under-the-hood enhancements, I don't think I'd be inclined to move away from X3. I mean, there are small annoyances I'd like to see fixed, but for those I could wait a version or two.
 
Maybe I don't have enough imagination to think of what Cakewalk could do that would be earthshaking enough. But I recall it was Addictive Drums that convinced me to move from X2. That offer hit just as I was thinking about a new MIDI drum package, so maybe another giant expensive VSTi or Melodyne Editor or something might ring my bell.
 
In the meantime, X3 and I, we're doing just fine.

Anderton

thomasabarnes
In the past, users have expressed a desire for a gapless audio engine and staff view improvements.
 

Frankly, I think the notation train has left the station in general. The more recent programs like Studio One, Live, and Reason don't do it at all. Avid had an opportunity when they bought Sibelius to fold hardcore notation into Pro Tools but did a lighter version instead. Cubase is still heavy on notation and that probably won't go away, given Yamaha's interest in the traditional educational market. But I just can't see a greatly improved staff view in Sonar making much of a difference in terms of attracting new users, and while there are existing users who would love Sonar's gestalt bundled with a great staff view, it seems to be a minority viewpoint compared to the user base as a whole. I could be wrong, of course.

 That's because the user base who wanted staff view improvement switched to Cubase.  

Anderton

melmyers
Since I commonly set up a 1- or 2-bar count off, there's always a short amount of dead space at the front that affects the total timing.

 
Is there any particular reason why you don't use the metronome to give a one or two-bar countoff so the jingle starts at 0:00? You can have the metronome click only during the countoff, then shut up for the rest of the recording.
 

I have to click at the end of my music, note the total time, click at the end of the count off, note the count off time...and then subtract the count off time from the end-of-music time, to see if the tempo I've set brings me out to :60.

 
 
 
 
 
 

It is common (not just common, but expected) in film/video work for a program to begin @ 01:00:00;00 for many reason I won't get into here.  Working in this environment I picked up the habit of starting my time sensitive projects :10 into a sequence.  My video SYMPTE offset in preferences is always set @ :00:59:50;00.  Once I pick my tempo I manipulate the meter so beat 1 of my music starts at 01:00:00;00. (it could be measure 6 as an example).  I open the "Big Clock" and can easily see where 60 seconds will fall. (01:01:00;00..everything is off set by one hour)
 
Another way...maybe easier...if you want to start your sequence in measure 3,  Just manipulate your SYMPTE off-set until 01:00:00;00  lines up at measure 3.  For example: if your meter is 4/4 and 120 BPM, and a offset of  :00:59:56:00.. measure 3 will have a SYMPTE clock time of 01:00:00:00. 
 
You can find the sympte Off set at    Preferences>Project>Clock.  And here is another clue.  If your music is longer than 1 minute, you are better off setting your frame rate at 29:97 df  (dropframe)  the timing will be more accurate.
     
This stuff becomes second nature once you've done it a couple of times. 

 
Sorry about this font...don't know how it got there and any attempts to change it made things worse
 

post edited by Jimbo 88 - 2014/10/20 23:05:40

kitekrazy1
It's actually ignorance on your behalf.  This forum is a small world.  Check Vi-Control, NSS forums you will find more who switched to Cubase for it's better scoring abilities than sticking with Sonar.

 
I'm not sure I'd consider those big worlds...but anecdotal evidence isn't really that valid. Just because I know people who switched from Cubase to Sonar doesn't mean anything, other than that they found workflow more important to their needs than notation.
 
In any case, it seems obvious that if someone wants heavy-duty staff view abilities, they'd switch to a program that emphasizes that feature. Or if they want to use looping live, they'd switch to Ableton Live. If they buy Premiere, they'll probably switch to Audition and if mastering was a crucial part of their workflow, they might opt for Samplitude. The concept that people gravitate towards programs that suit their needs isn't surprising, at least to me. I've switched platforms multiple times to use what suited my needs best at the time.
 

People on this forum have gotten harsh treatment because they wanted a better staff view. They started on it because it had a staff view.  After so many years of no improvement and it's something that is really important to them while something out there is better why would they stick with it?

 
If someone likes Sonar's workflow but wants a program with heavy-duty notation, then they need to make a choice. Some may stick with Sonar because as one user just posted, he used to work with notation but has since found the piano roll superior for his needs. They might choose to rewire a program like Notion, or block out in a notation-oriented program then import into Sonar for mixing. People have different needs and choose the options that meet their needs the best...as they should.
 
For Cakewalk, the returns of implementing a fancy staff view are not commensurate with the resources needed to implement it. I can print out lead sheets; if I need engraving quality (e.g., for musical examples in books) no DAW really does the job anyway. I'm probably fairly typical. Heavy-duty notation is just not that important to the majority of Sonar users, based not on anecdotal evidence but on a statistically valid sampling of the user base. The lack of interest also indicate that if it was implemented, a major (and expensive) marketing effort would be needed to convince people who are using existing notation-friendly programs to switch. There's no guarantee that would be successful, and unless Sonar attracted a whole bunch of new users because of implementing notation, then it's really not worth the resources.
 
Features like comping, ARA integration, and VST3 support affects a large percentage of the user base and are prioritized in terms of resources.
 

"Other DAWs don't have it" is not a good argument.

 
Actually, it is. It means they've likely done similar research and come to the same conclusion.