droddey
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/29 15:02:33
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These days there are a number of channel strips that are not stupidly expensive, which would provide a full front end for getting the tracks in pretty much like it should sound, at least for the one track at a time self-recorder since he only needs one. they aren't super-cheap, but considering it's a full, high quality front end in a single box, it's not bad at all. Here are some well known ones, which cover a wide range of approaches so you can pick your own particular poison. Any of them would make for a great front end in a home studio: http://www.vintageking.com/Retro-Instruments-Powerstrip http://auroraaudio.net/products/outboard/gtqc-about http://www.buzzaudio.com/products/arc1.1.htm http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AlphaChan/ http://www.mercenary.com/api-channelstrip.html http://www.mercenary.com/penquar.html http://www.tube-tech.com/mec-1a-recording-channel-17.html Another option of course for the home recorder is to get a 500 format lunch box or 10 slot rack mount enclosure and start off with a pre-amp in it if that's all you can initially afford. Then add an EQ and a compressor, and you have a channel strip. Over time add a couple other flavors of each and you have a bunch of channnel strips you can mix and match to taste. My only beef with the 500 format is no meters typically. For the self recorder, who is being engineer and artist at the same time, having nice big VU meters you can see from a distance is awfully nice. Some of them have LED meters which are good enough. The up side of course is that, if you use a lunch box, you can just pull it over to where you are and sit it beside you. I have my studio arranged so that I can usually track with the gear rack just off to my right hand side, so I can reach over and make adjustments easily while I'm playing and working out how it should sound. I'd love to have a robot mic stand, which some folks have built for themselves, so that I could move the mic around using foot controls while playing to find the best position.
post edited by droddey - 2011/12/29 15:12:36
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Middleman
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/29 16:39:20
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/29 16:41:45
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The Aurora Audio is on my drool list.
;-)
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/29 17:42:10
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Actually Mike is bang on, you would call Avalon, mid ranged but in the right hands, Danny for instance, it is as good as anything going around. (yea I'm sucking up looking for brownie points  ) It is a combanation of two things, the player and the engineer. Danny is right and this is something that I don't do enough and I don't have: Is hunt around for the right mic combanation and the right placement. But close a good close microphone technique will get you around some of these problems. Also as Mike suggested having a good preamp mic combo is a must. This is what I have suggested as well it is not good enought to just use the preamps on your interface's, they have their place, for instance I like the SM58 with my CHEAP MOTU preamp, but you can tell the difference between that and my equally as cheap Presonus Eureaka. Ok the Eureaka is a notch or two higher but it certanly is not high end but the difference between the two sound outcomes are like chalk and cheese. But in a mix, I think it's droddy, you are right each plug or outboard processer have their own flavour and the trick is to stir the mix. Of course there are a couple of flavourless plugs as well. The Sonitus compressor for instance. But once again guy's it's horses for courses, it is all so subjective, so lets just remember that. Once again I think it is important to have different flavours for different peices and each peice of equipment and or plug can change the course of your mix. Also as danny has said on many ocasions he does this for a living now if I remember correctly he has quite a selection of equipment and this is because on any given day he could be recording acoustic music or rock and each requires a different approach. For an individual who has there own sound a less is more approach is the way to go. So the Avalon preamp with a Neuman mic and some tasty plugs may be all you need, this mic preamp combo in the right hands would deliver some sweet recordings. So once again AmpFixer to answer your question YES, it is still importent to have some good outboard gear, even if it is just a good mic preamp combo. Ben
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Philip
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/29 18:42:15
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"So the Avalon preamp with a Neuman mic and some tasty plugs may be all you need, this mic preamp combo in the right hands would deliver some sweet recordings"
+1 Ben, IMO/IMHO. The Avalon-Newmann combo is 'safe' for multi-takes.
Danny is not a 'humble' 'ordinary' vox-talent, his vibe is robust and seasoned and he once told me he can use any reasonable mic for his vox (and other talents) ... as he also implied on this thread.
Danny's mic-pre combos require little 'coloration' 'character', 'tube'-pre fx, etc. Plus, he can record with his UAD 'outboard-emulation' comps ... conserving DSPs/Processor demands ... and/or add coloration and character later, along with tube and tape harmonics.
The Avalon-Newmann combo is a great confidence builder for us novice vocs with poor mic technique. Condensor mics are quite forgiving when used with a great pre ... despite some transient destruction at the source.
There are times I use the sm58 mic ... and record directly into my laptop-(Roland-card) ... at motels or in the car. That is fine for my 'robust'-vibes only. It requires 'better' mic technique ... and I've gotten better at it. But, I've had to adjust the Roland sound interface for some coloration or other.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 01:09:08
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Yeah I think everyone should have a few pieces to choose from in their arsenal. I have a little secret hardware compressor that I use going to disc for vocals and guitars. If I told you guys what it was, you'd laugh at me and wouldn't read anything I had to say again. As a matter of fact, I have a tarp over it in the studio so no one will see it. LOL! There's something about this comp that nothing else gives me. You know...one of those anomaly things? I don't ever use it hard...it's just one of those comps you can count on to deliver a nice conditioned signal to disc that makes a real difference. I've tried to get what it gets using super pricey units...and they just don't get the same sound. Speaking of the Neumann Philip....would you believe that's one of the mics I fail with all the time? I kid you not...I can only sing with that mic when I sing in the key of G! It hates me! It doesn't matter if I use a mic pre, run it into a console or whatever...it's like the voice of God comes outta nowhere and says "YOU MUST SING IN G!" Hahahahahaha! You know what my mic of choice has been for about oh...10 years now? An old Equitek CAD E-200. Most people laugh at me when I tell them that until they hear what it sounds like. All the cool mics I have here, and that's the one that chose me. I think you even asked me what I was using at one time because you liked it, didn't you? It's usually that mic into my Tascam DM 4800 console, (or my Mackie 32x8 depending what studio I'm in) with that goofy little compressor which I will not say the name of lol into Sonar and then I process with the NEVE 33609, NEVE 1081 and whatever effects I need. I really have been lucky with mics over the years. Honest I can take just about anything and pull a decent sound out of it. Even Radio Shack cheapo's...I can't tell you how many times I've been faced with those things throughout the years. It's amazing how far we can push a mic with the right placement, angle, height. Anyway...sorry.....back to analog gear. :) We all need a little of it...some more than others. It's just a taste/personal preference thing. :) -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2011/12/30 01:11:03
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 01:34:29
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Come on Danny I wont to know!!! I have a Art Pro VLA II and for 500 dollars OZ it can't be beaten for bass tracking and vox tracking IMHO. Some of the Behringer stuff gets a bums rap but what people forget is that the original Behringer stuff was all designed in Germany and made in Germany. This, the Behringer Vintage compressor, here is a pic: http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHT1952 originally started had a starting price I think of somewhere between $1000 and $2000 Oz, this was in 1999 or 2000. I use to druel about it, I don't really care about brands and as Danny may admit it's not the gear but the operator. But that was when Behringer was made in Germany, then Uri or whatever his name is moved all manufacturing to China and that baby dropped to $400. So Danny I ask again what is the comp, that is so cheap but you use all the time?? Ben
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droddey
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 01:53:49
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For me, my home made 1176 is very much the goto box for tracking. And what it doesn't cover, my home made LA-2A probably does. And you can use them together as well, both working lightly, to very good (and different) effect. I think you can do an awful lot with just those two pieces, and that's probably why you'll see them in almost every pro studio on the planet I guess. My Speck ASC-T EQs are great. They are HUGE bang for the buck. People don't sell them all that often, which says something in and of itself, but when they do you can generally pick up a racked pair for around $800, which is around what I paid for mine. They are flexible and no-nonsense, with a little color but not a lot. I also have a Behringer V-Verb, which is pretty widely considered the best thing Behringer ever made I think. I think I paid like $95 for it brand new or thereabouts. Among the things I (sadly) have had to dump over the last couple years for money reasons (isn't running your own company fun?) were a Drawmer 1968, Great River stereo EQ, Great River Pre-amp, Pearlman TM-1, and TAB V71 DI box. I'd love to have them all back at some point. The Drawmer 1968, BTW, is a VERY big bang for the buck piece. It can do mono, dual mono, or stereo, it has a (single frequency) side chain high pass, enough attack and release options, a nice sound, and tube output stage you can push hard to nice effect. It goes new for around $1500, used for around $1000. That one hurt to let go.
post edited by droddey - 2011/12/30 01:55:32
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 02:29:53
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BenMMusTech
Come on Danny I wont to know!!! I have a Art Pro VLA II and for 500 dollars OZ it can't be beaten for bass tracking and vox tracking IMHO.
Some of the Behringer stuff gets a bums rap but what people forget is that the original Behringer stuff was all designed in Germany and made in Germany.
This, the Behringer Vintage compressor, here is a pic: http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHT1952 originally started had a starting price I think of somewhere between $1000 and $2000 Oz, this was in 1999 or 2000. I use to druel about it, I don't really care about brands and as Danny may admit it's not the gear but the operator.
But that was when Behringer was made in Germany, then Uri or whatever his name is moved all manufacturing to China and that baby dropped to $400.
So Danny I ask again what is the comp, that is so cheap but you use all the time??
Ben
C'mon Ben...don't make me pull the tarp off...it's embarrassing enough that I admitted to having this thing. LOL! You know....I fully agree with you on the Behringer stuff. I have never purchased any gear from them that I thought sucked. However, I must say their life span hasn't been too good to me....other than that compressor I love....oops...LOL! Yeah, I admit it...I got a few Behringer Multi-com 2400's (4 comps in one box) that I just love for basic tracking of guitars and vocals. I don't use much of it...but just enough to where I have a really nice signal going to disc. The weird thing about it...and I'll get impaled for this, but I have a Drawmer S-3 that I didn't even take out of the box yet for my little home studio studio that I've had for about 3 weeks now. I bought 2 of them for my new studio about 5 months ago and can't say enough good things about them. That's definitely one of the best tube compressors I have ever tried hands down. A bit pricey, but so well worth it. I'm also glad I had a connection and didn't have to pay what these things are really going for...yikes! As for the Behringer stuff, I've always liked it. I feel it always does what they claim it can do and they really pack some value in for the money. The downside Ben...if you try some really nice stuff, you see just how much quality Behringer ISN'T giving you. But when you first try it...it sounds pretty good...it works well....you get a lot of bang for the buck. But as soon as a really pricey piece of gear comes in to replace it...it's not the price or the hype that wins you over, you literally hear a change in the sound for the better. Then again...that "change in sound" may only be a realistic 10% change for the better. When you add up all the 10%'s though on each instrument, that's where it can make a difference. My only gripe with Behringer is all their stuff seems to die on me. I had a Behringer Eurodesk 24x8 that I loved. I actually loved it more than my Mackie 32x8 to be honest. The eq's were cooler sounding and made a difference with the slightest change. The Mackie, I've always had to jump on pretty hard to hear differences. But I only use the consoles to get my stuff to disc and rarely use any eq anyway. I got a Tascam DM 4800 in the new studio that does a really nice job with that and has some good pre's to go along with our Avalons, Joe Meek (there's another lower end that sounds killer), Manley and Focusrite's. But all my Behringer stuff dies. That Eurodesk died on me in the middle of an album, I've had 3 multi-coms die on me (I have 2 left) I had a multi-gate die on me, and a Denoiser go as well. I have just 2 multi-coms (one in my home studio, one in my main studio) and a Behringer Edison that I use in my live guitar rig left that actually work. That Edison is pretty cool...like a stereo imager. But yeah, I totally agree with you....I like their stuff...always have...I just wish it lasted longer for me. :( -Danny
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SongCraft
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 02:37:20
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* ahem * I've got to admit my front end could use a lift  I still prefer a more direct 'mmmm' to the source approach, but what the heck I good clean strip is maybe all I need to ignite my desires, to get me passionately excited. Oh babe! Oh Yes! YES!! oh and I definitely need a replacement for my Eddiroll though I can't complain about it's drivers, they're rock solid ;) it's just that the vehicle itself is starting to go flaky on me; pre# 2 is faulty and oh man it's getting old and oh well. :P
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 02:56:04
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SongCraft
* ahem * I've got to admit my front end could use a lift
I still prefer a more direct 'mmmm' to the source approach, but what the heck I good clean strip is maybe all I need to ignite my desires, to get me passionately excited. Oh babe! Oh Yes! YES!!
oh and I definitely need a replacement for my Eddiroll though I can't complain about it's drivers, they're rock solid ;) it's just that the vehicle itself is starting to go flaky on me; pre# 2 is faulty and oh man it's getting old and oh well. :P
You know what though Greg? Though having a good front end really can make a difference....have you ever messed around and just came up with something totally killer and then used something better and you didn't get the same results? I remember so many times....getting killer sounds going right into a Realtek soundcard in my little home studio and then taking the project I started into my main studio and thiking...sheesh...why does that sound so good?! I'd try to record the stuff I did using good stuff, and something was missing. I'm a weirdo with gear. I have several copies of everything I own. When something works for me, I buy a few of them. But for example....I use a Digitech 2101 tube processor for my guitar. I have one in my home studio, my main studio and the new place I just got and they all have the same sounds loaded into them. It doesn't matter if I mic it or use the XLR speaker sim in it...it always gives me a good sound. For some odd reason, if I take this thing and send it through my console and then right into one of my stock service pc's that have Realtek's in them with ASIO4ALL drivers, it sounds better than if I do the same thing and run it through my Layla 24/96 or my RME Fireface using way better gear to get it there. Now I can only record at 16/44 with the Realtek stuff...so maybe the converters are doing something good to the sound. I remember telling someone about this on this forum one time and they offered up a good explanation about it. It may have been bitflipper. But whatever the case, there's a certain something that I get from that rig that I don't get when I use my good stuff. This is only in the case of XLR speaker sim type stuff though. When I use a mic and pre's etc, totally different animal. But speaker sim vs speaker sim and 16/44 vs. 24/48, I always like the 16/44 speaker sim sound recorded with the crappy Realtek better. I can pick it out every time. LOL! At first I thought maybe it was one Digitech being different from the other. But they all have the same sounds loaded in and the same 12ax7 tubes going on. So I tried another 2101...and sure enough, it still sounded better and a bit more throatier at 16/44 using that Realtek. LOL!! What I haven't tried is the RME or the Layla at 16/44. I'm thinking this whole thing might be a converter deal. But anyway...my point is, sometimes even with a really good front end, there are certain elements we may be lacking in different situations. Heck, if I find that my guitars seem to sound better printing at 16/44 as opposed to 24/48, I'd be a dope not to use that even if just for guitar tracking doing speaker sim sounds. Hahahaha! -Danny
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 02:56:32
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Danny Danzi
BenMMusTech
Come on Danny I wont to know!!! I have a Art Pro VLA II and for 500 dollars OZ it can't be beaten for bass tracking and vox tracking IMHO.
Some of the Behringer stuff gets a bums rap but what people forget is that the original Behringer stuff was all designed in Germany and made in Germany.
This, the Behringer Vintage compressor, here is a pic: http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHT1952 originally started had a starting price I think of somewhere between $1000 and $2000 Oz, this was in 1999 or 2000. I use to druel about it, I don't really care about brands and as Danny may admit it's not the gear but the operator.
But that was when Behringer was made in Germany, then Uri or whatever his name is moved all manufacturing to China and that baby dropped to $400.
So Danny I ask again what is the comp, that is so cheap but you use all the time??
Ben
C'mon Ben...don't make me pull the tarp off...it's embarrassing enough that I admitted to having this thing. LOL! You know....I fully agree with you on the Behringer stuff. I have never purchased any gear from them that I thought sucked. However, I must say their life span hasn't been too good to me....other than that compressor I love....oops...LOL!
Yeah, I admit it...I got a few Behringer Multi-com 2400's (4 comps in one box) that I just love for basic tracking of guitars and vocals. I don't use much of it...but just enough to where I have a really nice signal going to disc. The weird thing about it...and I'll get impaled for this, but I have a Drawmer S-3 that I didn't even take out of the box yet for my little home studio studio that I've had for about 3 weeks now. I bought 2 of them for my new studio about 5 months ago and can't say enough good things about them. That's definitely one of the best tube compressors I have ever tried hands down. A bit pricey, but so well worth it. I'm also glad I had a connection and didn't have to pay what these things are really going for...yikes!
As for the Behringer stuff, I've always liked it. I feel it always does what they claim it can do and they really pack some value in for the money. The downside Ben...if you try some really nice stuff, you see just how much quality Behringer ISN'T giving you. But when you first try it...it sounds pretty good...it works well....you get a lot of bang for the buck. But as soon as a really pricey piece of gear comes in to replace it...it's not the price or the hype that wins you over, you literally hear a change in the sound for the better. Then again...that "change in sound" may only be a realistic 10% change for the better. When you add up all the 10%'s though on each instrument, that's where it can make a difference.
My only gripe with Behringer is all their stuff seems to die on me. I had a Behringer Eurodesk 24x8 that I loved. I actually loved it more than my Mackie 32x8 to be honest. The eq's were cooler sounding and made a difference with the slightest change. The Mackie, I've always had to jump on pretty hard to hear differences. But I only use the consoles to get my stuff to disc and rarely use any eq anyway. I got a Tascam DM 4800 in the new studio that does a really nice job with that and has some good pre's to go along with our Avalons, Joe Meek (there's another lower end that sounds killer), Manley and Focusrite's.
But all my Behringer stuff dies. That Eurodesk died on me in the middle of an album, I've had 3 multi-coms die on me (I have 2 left) I had a multi-gate die on me, and a Denoiser go as well. I have just 2 multi-coms (one in my home studio, one in my main studio) and a Behringer Edison that I use in my live guitar rig left that actually work. That Edison is pretty cool...like a stereo imager. But yeah, I totally agree with you....I like their stuff...always have...I just wish it lasted longer for me. :(
-Danny
Ha  I knew it, Behringer does what it does and yea I've heard that gripe before but for the price the logic is: Hey it's so cheap go and buy another one. The funny thing is I've never owned a peice of Behringer kit long enough for it to happen and I've owned a lot, including their first digital desk, which I thought was great. Have you tried any of the art stuff, trust me the VLA II is preatty special, IMHO. Ben
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 03:14:13
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Hahaha I knew you had me figured out...as soon as you said "Behringer" in that other post...I was like...man...I'm toast!" :) Now the ART stuff...believe it or not...has never done much for me. I've tried a few of their pieces over the years and though it worked...it just never made me say "wow". They've been around for so long...you'd think they would have become a super huge company by now. I mean I know they're popular...but they've been fighting hard in the trenches since the 80's and still haven't really got any major recognition....at least over here in the US. People know about them...they just aren't known for "quality". The only thing by them that I tried and liked Ben...was they had this huge guitar processor rack they put out. It was like a dual space rack/pre-amp and it had like 1000 sounds in it. I think it was even driven by a pair of 12ax7 tubes. I should have bought that thing because it was cheap and sounded great. It had every effect known to man all in one box and I had a killer sound out of it in less than 30 seconds. I still can't remember why I didn't buy it though....oh I know, I think because it was pink! LMAO!!!! Oh wait, I found it! Hahahahahahah! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-ART-SGX-2000-Guitar-Tube-Preamp-and-Multi-Effects-Processor-A-Condition-/220923021244?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337009c7bc I know they have a pretty decent line of stuff now...but it's been years since I've tried anything from them. When I have though...most of it was like...errr..ok I guess but nothing that blew me away. -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2011/12/30 03:15:39
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 10:26:47
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I'm predicting that when this thing is introduced that it will be received as the coolest thing since the RNC set the sound goodness standard for what a <$1k compressor can sound like.  best regards, mike
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Middleman
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 12:48:25
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It has been introduced. http://www.mercenary.com/fmrpbc.html This is Middleman, I am a recovering Behringer user. Actually, truth be told I still use their headphone amp for tracking. I feel so dirty. So basically I run a Neumann TLM49 into a Neve Portico 5012 into an LA2A for the thing it does then into an 1176 for limiting when I track vocals. About a $5000 chain then I monitor on a $100 Behringer heaphone amp. Call me crazy.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 20:03:50
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Thanks for the heads up!
best regards,
mike
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Rain
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 20:47:00
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Mike, as it often happens, I quite figure out if you're being sarcastic. I always feel there might be more to your post than what I grasp - language barrier doesn't help with subtle stuff. I'm probably the one who misses the aptitude to clearly get the point.
Anyway, having read what you wrote earlier in that thread, it'd surprise me big time if you were seriously recommending that RNC unit. Unfortunately, I'm not on an infinite budget - $500 is an important investment here. I'm building the setup and we still book time in real studios to finish this album, so for the time being, I still have to justify all expenses. But I'm trying to think long term because, eventually, we want to just do as much as possible at home.
As far as hardware goes, besides certain microphones, compressors and preamps are on the top of my list. Do you guys (not just Mike, though I'd be curious to hear) think that that RNC stuff is a worthy "investment"?
W/ the small market we have back home, I can't possibly imagine justifying a $5000 signal chain - paying studio time would just be more profitable, and we have access to some pretty fine ones.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 21:05:03
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Hi Rain, although I am very often sarcastic I rarely ever recommend gear... especially mid grade gear.
This unit is very new, I've never tried it and it turns out it is about twice as expensive as I expected it to be.
I was, however, sincere in my imagined prediction. I've owned one of the original FMR Really Nice Compressors for about as long as they have been available. It is a great piece of gear, but it is two track and unbalanced so not always convenient.
I've been hoping FMR would make a mono balanced unit for a decade or more... I saw on the FMR web site that it was announced as coming soon, and Middleman pointed out that Mercenary has an adavnce run of them on sale already.
I'll probably buy one soon and consider 3 more if I like what I hear.
best regards,
mike
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droddey
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 21:18:50
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Actually, it's not that new. It's been out for well over a year now, right? Maybe even two? I've not used it, but I've seen plenty of folks I know to be gear snobs indicating that it punches way over its weight, as most of the FMR stuff seems to, and it has a lot of flexibility as well in a small package. There are a bunch of samples on the Mercenary web site, or were long ago when it first came out. Obviously if mono is ok for you, and you can only afford one, then a Distressor is not a bad choice. It's the most flexible thing out there, arguably anyway. At least the most flexible thing within a couple $K of it's price. You can pick them up used for generally around $900 in these days of woe.
post edited by droddey - 2011/12/30 21:20:12
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SongCraft
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/30 23:05:34
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Philip: The Avalon-Newmann combo is a great confidence builder for us novice vocs with poor mic technique.
Sure :) but not just for novice, that combo of course may not work for everyone, it really depends on many factors, and as you know; a lot of people (both novice and professionals) are quick to blame the tools only to find later (sometimes much later after spending money on other tools) that it was their own misjudgement of the true capabilities of the tools their thought was crap. Point is; no matter the experience we're 'all' still learning! That said; In the right hands; the Avalon can be a worthy tool :)
Hi Danny,
Like I said; The Edirol has gone flaky on me; Pre #2 is faulty :( I need to replace it. It's not a matter of; oh because it's a cheap interface I need to replace it with something way more expensive simply because a way-more expensive hardware is going to give better results. Yes, I agree with what James said, my point was in regards to running a professional studio with respect to the clients!
And I said in my previous post; I prefer to go the most direct route from source to the DAW. In the 1979 I customized a 24 chn 'live purpose' mixer for recording my band (on stage at the venue), by utilizing the most direct source out to the recorder (tape/reel) it worked perfectly... an audio engineer who has worked at top venues in Sydney, Australia was blown away by how great that recording sounded.
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ampfixer
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/31 00:29:33
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This is a very interesting thread. I know only one first call producer and thought that his love of all sorts of antique gear was just a personal thing. One of his guys was at my shop one day and brought a foot pedal for me to try. I thought that it was the cheapest bit of junk I ever listened to. It was a plastic fuzz wah. He laughed at me and said " play this chord, and this second chord while pumping the wah in time". Ok I said, and did as he instructed. Voila! the opening riff from Elevation by U2. Blew my mind.
Another job I did for them was to restore a 59 Tremolux. The only instruction I received was to be creative and under no circumstances return it in stock form. This guy really seems to like to challenge the norm and try everything. What I'm hearing in this thread just reinforces that idea. Since I plan on building some tube gear for studio use I'm buying up various things and listening to them just to get some exposure today I grabbed a few things that are older but in excellent shape to get started.
TASCAM MIXING BOARD M-208 $100
DBX166 Comp/limiter $50
A.R.T. Professional Tube Mic Preamp Compressor and Equalizer (model 259) $200
I also have an Echoplex pre-amp and a very old Ampex mono recording pre-amp. All of this was cheap or free. I'm curious if there's anything that I REALLY must check out as I learn about these antiques. I know lots about guitar amps but nothing about studio gear so I'm kind of wandering at the moment. I even borrowed a set of those horrible Yamaha monitors I see in every studio.
Onward through the fog. Happy New Year all.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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Rain
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/31 07:31:43
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Thanks Mike, I appreciate.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/31 08:30:06
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Thanks Dean,
I guess the info at the FMR site itself isn't as up to date as the street info.
I had predicted this would be a great unit when I was thinking $250/per.
At $450 the choice gets more complicated... but I agree that the next thing I look at in the line up would be a pair of Distressors.
I had a pair of Distressors in the cart for my end of the year blow out... but then I decided to hold off. :-)
all the best,
mike
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Tap
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/31 11:45:05
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When recording with my condenser microphone, I always use my Symetrix 528 ( The older version with the better electronics ) It really does a great job conditioning the signal into my interface. I believe many folks here who do lots of mic'ing rely on a good pre-amp. 
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droddey
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2011/12/31 15:16:08
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In terms of well known big bang for the buck studio gear, these are some (some of which I've already named above):
1. Drawmer 1968. A very nice compressor that would normally be selling for twice as much probably.
2. Distressor. Regularly go for $900 to $1000 used depending on options and there's not really anything more flexible.
3. Speck ASC-T EQs. Good quality, good price. I picked up a pair of them for less than a single API 500 module. I did have two pairs but once again had to dump one for money.
4. AT 40xx microphones. The 4030, 4050, and 4047 are all well known big bang for the buck LDCs.
5. The ART Pro VLA II. It's a very inexpensive but very useful compressor which sounds a lot better than the price.
6. Chameleon Labs 7720. An SSL compressor clone. Used to be cheaper than it is now. I think that they realized folks thought them underpriced for the results so they upped the price or something.
7. The PB6 from FMR mentioed above
8. BAC TK-1. Another SSL clone, a bit more pricey than the 7720 above, but also probably better sound quality and still not high priced for that kind of gear.
9. RME Multiface II. 8 analog I/O, 1 digital, plus MIDI, with high performance and very solid drivers, and you can add up to two more to the same machine over time and just sync them. They are half rack so you can do 16 I/O in a single rack space. You can find them used for around $800'ish dollars, in which case you could do 16 I/O for around $1600 which is a very good price for something that high quality.
10. Emperical Labs Lil' Freq. Although not cheap, I don't think that there's any other EQ out there that is this flexible. One of these guys would definitely let you get it right on the way in and have plenty of uses in the mix as well.
11. TC Elec M3000. You can pick up these (now kind of old but still very nice) for around $800 used.
12. Solo/610. I consider the Solo/610 pre-amp to be a very good value for money, new or used. It's a really nice all around pre-amp for a more vintage vibe, and a killer DI for bass. You can find them used pretty commonly around $500 or so.
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Starise
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/03 09:42:17
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John I think that there is a real market for this type of gear. I have had my nose in quite a few boxes . For some time a lot of the hardware,even hardware touted to be analog uses surface mount technology assembled by robots.
This drives the price of the unit down but sometimes compromises the quality of the signal chain,using cheap capacitors etc. . Those who claim they make their gear of a higher quality and "hand assemble" it shoot themselves in the backend by charging some of the prices they do. We both know that most of those components don't cost that much. I don't even think R&D expenses should justify some of those prices.
The only way I can see they make anything is that if they sell three of em' in a year they make money lol.....and they won't sell one to me.
I think most musicians/recordists getting into self recording are going the plug route because that's the least expensive option open to them and usually it's about money and lets face it,all the major DAWS come preloaded with plugs all ready to go. Plugs can basically do most of it, but it is arguable and subjective as to what sounds/works best. A good outboard compressor and preamp is hard to beat and if you made a lower cost unit based on the same designs or similar as those priced for kings you will have buyers IMO.
I think Dannis' challenge is a good one. From my own personal experience analog gear sounds better in some instances but seldom the other way around when we are talking high end gear.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/03 10:08:23
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Starise
I think Dannis' challenge is a good one. From my own personal experience analog gear sounds better in some instances but seldom the other way around when we are talking high end gear.
It really is a good challenge, Starise. I mean, ok, we know that some of the saturation type stuff and analog characteristics are not going to be there. Then again, with some of the UAD stuff, there IS a form of it present and this is where we have to ask outselves "is it close enough, and if not, how off is it?" I really had a good time trying to simulate the analog gear I used. It was a fun challenge. Especially pre-amps. You know that little coloration...or the saturation thing from an 1176...the UAD stuff comes so close, it just wasn't worth it to me. Take a mic pre...if you use it for coloration...there's no way someone with a little know how won't come close. I mean, yeah, this experimenting takes a little time where it's easier to just run the analog unit. But my point is...if you can find the winning combination that comes close enough to where you say "wow, that is definitely acceptable" it proves the point that it's at least close to possible and acceptable. That's really my only point in the stuff I've mentioned. :) If you get the right saturation type plug sound (Studer 800 or Fatso Sr hands down for just about everything) and use the right eq to color it...it's so close it just makes me question a 6k or more purchase as well as all the routing that goes with that for a single device you may have to buy doubles of. I just think some of it is more hype and being "different" than actually being "better". :) -Danny
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Danny Danzi
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/03 10:19:22
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One more thing to add that I've been using as a scenario the past few weeks. This high end gear is so pricey, the hype of it can sometimes get into peoples heads. Seriously....I'm not knocking it, it's great...but even in some tests, some of it didn't totally blow us away when compared to cheaper stuff. But back to my scenario....a few weeks ago I take my car down to Atco Raceway to run a few 1/4 mile runs. This dude in a Dodge Viper was talking all sorts of smack to everyone. Of course I had to take a shot at him. His car is worth more than mine...was worked in different areas...but I still knew I could take him. Well, this dude behind me offers to pay me money to run in my place and he has a Honda CRX. LOL! He tells me he'll give me money to run in my place and give me $100 if this Viper beats him. I figured what the heck...should be an easy $100 bucks. Well, the dude in the Honda had some kinda mojo going on. He blew that Viper into the dust! Hahahaha! My point in that....even though he smoked that Viper, no one will ever take a Honda CRX serious when it comes to a $100k worked Viper, ya know what I mean? Sure the people that saw it take it seriously...but it's safe to say quite a few people would rather have a rad looking Viper than a Honda with hidden race goodies. I know...some of you would take the Honda because you hate Dodge...lol....but that's not the point. The point is...the pricier stuff is always going to hold a little more clout even if there are things less expensive that do similare things or get you to the same point. It's always the way it works with everything really. A house in South Carolina for 80k that would be really worth 300k if it were in NJ is still...an 80k house. I really think at times this is how some of this stuff works. At the end of the day, everyone should use what they feel works best for them. None of us should really down anything until we have had the chance to use the right stuff. It all works, it all sounds great....we just have a few differences that will always be subjective. :) -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2012/01/03 10:20:29
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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AT
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/03 10:34:18
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Back on the original question - most of the industry people I know are hardware-centric. Some of it is snob appeal and they will admit it. One guy I've worked with spent years looking for a 60's era Gefell mic instead of an old Newman. It is not like he couldn't afford it - he has sold million of units as a producer. He also likes to set up his outboard and not touch it, presumedly just running his digital signals back through the analog stuff during mixing.
Digital saturation/emulations are getting better, and even the UAD is cheap in comparision to high-end hardware. But unless you are doing full band recordings and single mic'ing drums, a couple of channels of good hardware is all you need for the real thing. You can use it going in, stamping your sound with real transformers and other good electronics, then run the mix back through it during mixdown to double the vibe.
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http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Starise
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Re:Is outboard gear still viable?
2012/01/03 10:48:06
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Danny,your actually talkin' to me? I though I peeved you or somethin? lol.
Yeah, I agree, looking under the cover on some of this "high end" gear reminds me of the time I watched the Wizard Of OZ and there was this little fat guy behind the curtains who was the actual wizard. Sometimes what looks like a Viper ain't a viper lol. I'm not saying some high end gear isn't nice, but I wouldn't let pretty buttons and knobs get my attention over the sound. I actually owned a few of the outboard compressors that were of the less expensive variety. I ended up giving my rack away to a church who folded and sold the stuff lol...that's another story.
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