Mike this is why I question the prices they charge for some of this gear.

This is why I posted photos of gear that has hundreds of dollars worth of transformers in them.

:-)

For example; The Jensen Transformers I buy direct from Jensen sell in quantities of hundreds for $70 each. I pay a little more for small orders.

Some of those preamps pictured above have 8 audio transformers of that quality and cost sitting in them. That's $500+ in audio transformers.

It's all there for each person to consider and form their own opinion about the potential for "value".

It seems like each year more and more small-shop hi end audio gear is being introduced and sold to happy buyers.

Personally, I find it entertaining to consider that the mark up rate on the mid and low end mass produced stuff is enormous compared to the mark up rate on the hi end stuff.

I think part and assembly cost equals a little more than 1/4 of M.S.R.P. for most small-shop hi end or pro grade product and most buyers pay about 80% of M.S.R.P.

If you can live with that... you buy this sort of stuff.

 

I think companies like Behringer are often making stuff where production cost is less than 1/10th M.S.R.P. Of course, those companies absorb lots of expenses through other activities like advertising, endorsements, and trade show booths.



all the best,
mike

Great River.

All the preamps pictured have in and out trannys.



The Chandler is actually a favorite of mine... it has a deep rich low end response that I save for the special stuff. Keep in mind, it's apparent sparsity reflects the fact that it is only 2 channels and it uses a big old fashioned external power supply.

best regards,
mike

Mike,

you forgot to list Behringer's lawsuits.

Nice looking collection, too.  I'm glad I wasn't on my tablet or I might have drooled on it.

And yea, Middleman, it is kinda like being in the 1% with all those.  hard to go wrong, just that one might be a tad better on each source.

@

How does the old joke go - "lose money on each unit but make up for it with volume."

Starise


 Danny,your actually talkin' to me? I though I peeved you or somethin? lol. 

  

Aww man, I don't know what I might have said to make you feel that way. I'm sorry if anything came out wrong...but no, I'm not peeved at you or anyone else on this forum or in this discussion. I think this has been a great discussion and shows what everyone is into as well as how passionate we all are in our beliefs. Again my apologies for anything I said that may have made you think I was upset with you. :)
 
-Danny

I have to strongly agree with Danny.  Once you have a really healthy signal, It's hard to beat a great plug-in. It just takes some patience getting it programmed to get the right sound out of it. At the same time, there are some hardware that you just can't find a suitable plug-in for like Bat's DBX MC-6.

well, all a DAW and a Plugin can do, is take the source, and do new math on it.


whereas, HARDWARE actually changes the audio before it ever hits the convertors.

there is an intangible element in sound, that is for me, the reason to bother capturing it to begin with.

the ESSENCE of capturing audio happens outside of the DAW, for me.

it's just that using plugins is so dirt easy.

but i happen to be of the opinion that the MAGIC, happens outside of the DAW

 Not obsessing,not buying...using plugs for now. The explanations don't totally explain it for me, but that doesn't matter because I don't intend to use super expensive gear.
 Things are overpriced sometimes based on name recognition IMO. I'm not knocking it, but I'm not buying it either. People keep on buying it because they want it and will pay the price,everyone is different.

 I have also explained why some of this gear could cost less. This isn't a personal attack on you or your opinion or an attack on audio hardware. Just my personal observations on what I percieve to be overpriced gear.

Another (common) misconception you have is that the retail price of the gear goes into the manufacturer's pocket, which isn't the case. Almost all gear is sold via retail outlets and those folks take their cut, else they wouldn't bother selling it. So, right off the bat the manufacturer is probably only getting maybe somewhere around 70% to 80% of the retail price. Plus the cost of parts, of labor and secretaries and sales people and all of the taxes and liabilities that employees entail, of shipping, of storage, the business taxes, the facilities, the computers, etc...
 
Companies can sell direct, but unless they are willing to sell ONLY direct and give up on all o the exposure that having their product sold through retail outlets provides, they still have to make the price such that they don't completely undercut those retail outlets. Else those outlets will dump their products.

Everyone who has never run a business tends to have a completely distorted view of the price structure of products. No one in the boutique audio processing hardware business is getting rich. Same with the software side of it. Even the larger companies would be considered piddly by real business standards in other industries.

BTW, could you name a product with $600 worth of parts that sells for $5000? I doubt you'll find one. The world has become infected with the Walmart Mentality, IMO. It's one of those bizarre manifestations of the internet I think in some ways. It's destroying quality at a scary rate. People complain about all our jobs going overseas but refuse to pay for products that would provide livable wages and company stability. Even fairly low pay companies like Best Buy and Circuit City are going under because of this trend. And there's this ongoing anti-business sentiment, even against folks like we are talking about here, who are about as close to farmers and carpenters as you can get in electronics. 

One of the defining factors in the notion of "hi end" includes a limited and streamlined distribution system that minimizes the number of middlemen.

It's difficult to find value in "hi end" gear if it is distributed via a complicated and multi-tiered distribution system that ads cost without increasing value.


best regards,
mike

The cost is "justified", if you will, when you actually start shopping for an audio transformer and you find out that it costs about $70 bucks to get one that doesn't make the term "transformerless" seem like an actual benefit. :-)

That's the thing... the stuff just costs that much.





How come no one get's upset that the distribution system that finances the warehousing and transport of Behringer cartons around the planet gets $100 for a box of pieces-parts that only costs $10 to build, breaks within 2 years and isn't worth fixing?


Like I say... I find the situation sort of entertaining. :-)

all the best,
mike

that minimizes the number of middlemen

 
Gosh I hope not.

Send it directly to me, and cut out the middleman (sorry about that, middleman).

@

Yes, I thought that was obvious.

M.S.R.P. has to reflect all the middlemen's profits.

Not every manufacturer aspires to make so many units that the distribution requires middlemen that do nothing more than facilitate escrow and stocking depth through the mechanism of finance so that occasional bumps in demand can be met with rapid delivery.

Some middlemen do nothing but service the interest on the outstanding debt associated with the "stock"

The small fabrication shop guys can eliminate several layers of middleman simply by choosing to never get into the high volume distribution.

Some small fabrication shops are inherently using streamlined methods of distribution because it just makes good sense and stripping away layers of distribution allows them to spend a higher proportion of the M.S.R.P. on quality components.



It should also be sort of obvious that any time you import stuff you are adding one or two layers to your local M.S.R.P. If you buy domestic you'll often times get the most for your money, no matter how much money that is.


all the best,
mike