AnsweredIs there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track?

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guitarblah
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2015/11/24 15:09:54 (permalink)

Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track?

Working in sonar x3
 
I own an expensive guitar-to-midi synth and I have been using the unit
as a synthesizer for my orchestral tracks (triggering it from a keyboard).
It's an expensive unit and after doing a heap of recording with it (on a
track), I found that the pitch is slightly off. - I could hear it audibly then
confirmed it with auto-tune. ***Enough to make it unusable.
 
 
Amazingly the unit itself doesn't have fine-pitch correction (only transpose)
so I'm left with trying to find a way to alter it within the actual midi (in sonar).
None of the controls in the console window (for the midi-track) seem to do
fine tuning. Are there any other solutions? Perhaps a 3rd party plugin
if not within sonar itself??
 
Thanks.
post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/24 15:22:36
#1
Beepster
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 15:32:41 (permalink)
You are using the internal sounds on an external hardware synth?
 
I'm pretty sure in that scenario you are going to have to print the sound to an audio track and then use an audio pitch shifting tool to fine tune it (like Melodyne or the Sonar DSP tuning thingie).
 
You could do this on a temporary basis as you work (like let's say you want to get it in your desired pitch while you track other instruments) by recording the audio output of the synth into a new track then applying the pitch correction, muting the original tracks and then continueing to work.
 
If you need to make adjustments to the the actual MIDI of the performance just revert back to the original (and scrap your scratch audio version) then do it again.
 
Of course as you work you will have to suffer through the off pitch output of the hardware synth as you play/write.
 
To avoid THAT though if it is too distracting is you could do an audio bounce/export of EVERYTHING ELSE in the project into a stereo wave that would go into a new track then pitch adjust that audio to match the tuning of the external synth. Record your part to that.
 
Then mute the pitch adjusted export track (and unmute the original tracks) and then bounce to audio your newly created external synth parts to audio and tune it to the project material.
 
I do think it's pretty odd a hardware synth of any quality would be outputting out of tune audio.
 
Maybe Sonar's tuning base is off? I don't know much about that stuff so I'll defer to the smarter dudes/dusdette's on that.
 
Cheers.
#2
guitarblah
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 15:45:57 (permalink)
Yes i'm saving the track as audio (from the audio outputs of the synth) but we are talking about a complex orchestral strings track (with up to 8 notes playing at one time). It would be completely impractical (or just a ridiculous waste of time) to correct that with audio pitch-correction software. - With all its layers and note-changes.
 
Does midi not have fine-tune pitch directly within its native language (I'm getting the feeling it doesn't)?
My keyboard has it, and I have Trilogy (VI) which has it..
 
The orchestral string sound is extremely realistic and by far my best available option right now.
Worst case scenario I could download a strings VI but the only one I know is Omnisphere (which is 80 gig).
 
 
I'm going to bed now (been awake for 20 hours now) but/and will read replies when I wake.
post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/24 15:57:25
#3
bvideo
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 15:51:47 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby guitarblah 2015/11/25 16:16:03
If there are no controls in the synth front panel (yours is external h/w, right?), there are still two other possibilities:
1. Insert a pitch wheel event at the beginning of the track for each midi channel you use. You'll have to fiddle and guess at the proper value (unless you have a pitch "wheel" on your guitar synth to try out) because synths and even different patches in synths can have different sensitivities to the pitch wheel.
2. There may still be an internal pitch adjustment in the synth that can be set by some other controller or a sysex message, which you would then have to hand-craft. This is deeper and requires looking at the MIDI implementation document for the synth.
 
There might be some other things going on, such as a stray pitch wheel event from whatever controls are on your guitar controller part.

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Beepster
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 15:57:42 (permalink)
Well as you seem to be aware this type of tuning usually happens inside the synth. The notes just trigger what the synth is outputting.
 
If it's high quality as you say there's gotta be something in there that can fine tune it. After 20 hours awake and futzing with stuff the absolute best advice would be to sleep on it and take another stab at it in the morning.
 
It should NOT be outputting out of tune notes at all. Only the worst of the worst keyboards/synths will do that.
 
I am only just really digging into midi stuff though so again I'll defer to others. There may be some interface stuff or other hardware settings causing the issue.
 
Maybe there is some kind of fine tuning that can happen in Sonar but if there is I cannot recall ever seeing it mentioned and I just took a look at the MIDI track Inspector and even loaded the MIDI Transpose plugin. Nothing there for fine tuning.
 
Good luck.
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BobF
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 16:08:26 (permalink)
There appears to be coarse and fine tuning control messages available, but I have no idea how to use them or if you gear will recognize them
 

 
I found that here
 

post edited by BobF - 2015/11/24 16:25:37

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Beepster
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 16:12:56 (permalink)
bv and Bob are definitely pointing to absolute worst case scenario solutions so totally listen to them.
 
That seems TOTALLY whack to have to do though and would require writing in the pitch change on all your tracks (I think).
 
There has to be an answer inside the hardware source. Otherwise... that would really suck.
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jatoth
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 17:48:28 (permalink)
To answer your question directly, no, MIDI can not be tuned. (AFAIK)
MIDI sends messages to a device, in this case a synth. MIDI will send note on and note off messages by note number. It is up to the synth to play back that note number and create audio. Therefor there is no way to "tune" a MIDI clip, you must tune the instrument. Your particular synth may have a controller that adjusts pitch and therefore you could send a MIDI message to that controller and fine tune the synth. However, if the synth has a controller to adjust pitch, then there should also be a way to adjust the pitch without using MIDI!
Could the synth be using an alternate tuning? Or is it tuned properly but off a few cents?
 
If you tell us what "expensive guitar-to-midi synth" you have, we may be able to track it down for you.

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Beepster
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 17:59:28 (permalink)
jatoth
Could the synth be using an alternate tuning? Or is it tuned properly but off a few cents?




This actually brings up an interesting point.
 
This is supposed to be an orchestral synth/patch bank?
 
Perhaps because it is orchestral it is tuned to "concert pitch" which is A335.
 
Most modern music is tuned to A440.
 
Sooooo.... maybe see if there is an option to switch between A335/Concert Pitch and A440/"Standard" pitch.
 
Long shot but without actually reading up on your particular synth long shots is all we'z gotz.
 
Cheers.
 
yes... i know you are probably sleeping but so will i soonish...
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slartabartfast
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 18:32:52 (permalink)
I must say I am confused about what is out of tune here. A "guitar to MIDI synth" sounds like it is a guitar MIDI controller that allows you to play a guitar-like controller and write a MIDI output. If it is a MIDI to guitar synth then it sounds like it would be a dedicated sound module that sounds like a guitar. Why is the OP not just telling us the make and model of his gear? In any event there is no way that the MIDI track can go out of tune since it is just note numbers, unless there is a MIDI tuning or pitch bend message in the MIDI data somewhere. It may be time to clarify exactly what gear is being used and what the signal chain is, and what is out of tune relative to what. "Expensive" is not a very useful description in this case. 
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mettelus
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 20:21:17 (permalink)
If it is similar to my GR-30, the synth will accept and replicate out-of-tune scenarios (including bends/vibrato which is highly desired). I have not used that in a long time, so not sure of exact settings, but a guitar must be tuned prior to using it.

If the MIDI was not captured (I personally hate editing MIDI anyway), the outputted audio can be adjusted most easily with Audacity. Melodyne most likely would not work well for this edit, but would provide how many cents off the notes are (string by string disparities will get ugly but should have been caught in recording). Once the detune in cents is known, that can be offset using Audacity and keep duration consistent. Melodyne would be worth a shot, but any effects will throw it off. Audacity (or similar) is not a quick method either, so do not assume this is a 5 minute process to fix.

Edit: The "triggering from my keyboard" is throwing me for a loop though. Insight into your hardware setup would help clarify things.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/11/24 20:35:01

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BobF
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 21:00:14 (permalink)
My TriplePlay seems to do very well ... so far.

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promidi
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 21:16:15 (permalink)
guitarblah
Working in sonar x3
 
I own an expensive guitar-to-midi synth and I have been using the unit
 
Thanks.



What is the exact model number of your guitar-to-midi synth?  The reason I ask is because the MIDI implementation chart for that device may show you if it is possible to send MIDI commands to perform a master tuning function. 

I use a Yamaha SW1000XG (which is a Yamaha MU100 on a PCI card) which allows the use of specific System Exclusive commands to perform a master tune on all tracks.  These System Exclusive commands adhere to the Yamaha XG standard and work with all Yamaha XG synths and Yamaha XG synth modules. Maybe your guitar-to-midi synth offers a similar way to perform this.  The user guide should show you what to send if it's possible.
post edited by promidi - 2015/11/24 21:27:38

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konradh
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/24 22:02:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/11/25 20:20:18
Others have mentioned pitch wheel.  I always put a pitch wheel=0 at the start of a sequence and have Sonar set to reset pitch and controllers when it stops and search back when it starts.

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guitarblah
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/25 04:14:06 (permalink)
Wow I didn't expect to wake and see so many replies.
 
Pitch wheel sounds like the most promising option by far.
I will test that out first.
Also it is a guitar-to-midi synth (GR-20) but as said I'm triggering
it from my keyboard. It does seem entirely possible the keyboard
has settings configured which is altering the cents.
 
A lot of things in this thread to try and it does seem that at least
one will work.
Thanks for the help!
post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/25 04:25:24
#15
ston
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/25 05:02:51 (permalink)
Does the guitar midi synth thing have a global tuning setting, i.e. that which is usually "A=440Hz"?  Is this perhaps not set to 440?
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rabeach
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/25 06:26:02 (permalink)
page 13 of the manual for the GR-20 "You can adjust the reference pitch in a range of 427 Hz–452 Hz. When the GR-20 is shipped from the factory, this is set to 440 Hz."
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guitarblah
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/25 06:56:09 (permalink)
rabeach
page 13 of the manual for the GR-20 "You can adjust the reference pitch in a range of 427 Hz–452 Hz. When the GR-20 is shipped from the factory, this is set to 440 Hz."


That relates to the unit's guitar tuning function not the pitch of the midi banks.


post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/25 07:08:42
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konradh
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/25 09:17:58 (permalink)
So, as far as I know, there is no MIDI function or controller to fine tune pitch.
 
There could be a SysEx message going to your synth that is altering tuning.  I have had SysEx messages I didn't know about in another track for another synth that was using the same device number.  If you can't get any other resolution, you might read the Sonar help on SysEx and make sure that is not the issue.  If it is, you can delete the SysEx messages and reset the synth.  (How did I get SysEx messages in the sequence without knowing?  By recording MIDI from a synth and pressing a preset button that sent SysEx to Sonar.)  If you check the tuning of the synth with a tuner, then--with Sonar close--reset your synth and check tuning again, that may shed some light on whether the synth itself has been set to a different tuning standard, or whether there is something in the track that is sending tuning information.
 
Finally, there is a discussion about sending fine tuning messages to a synth at this link:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/how-to-detune-MIDI-m1858470.aspx
 
Just to clarify, MIDI itself just sends notes, not tuning; but MIDI can be used to send system exclusive messages to a synth.   Confusing, right?

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#19
mettelus
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/25 15:29:06 (permalink)
The pickup used for my GR-30 has a 13 pin MIDI cable, so the unit does accept and process system specific messaging. I honestly never tried a keyboard to drive it, but Konrad's comment to zero pitch bend is worth trying. I have seen that wheel drift on older controllers. Barring that, it would seem the pitch delta is being done inside the GR-20.

Can also shoot Roland an email asking them specifically.

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guitarblah
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/25 16:06:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/11/25 20:20:04
I literally just got a chance to test it (my day got completely derailed).
Adding a wheel event fixed it completely.
post edited by guitarblah - 2015/11/25 16:18:32
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mettelus
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Re: Is there any way to fine tune (not transpose) the pitch of an entire midi track? 2015/11/25 20:09:12 (permalink)
Awesome, glad you got it figured out.

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