Helpful ReplyIsolate A Bad Frequency?

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Johnbee58
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2018/09/10 00:36:10 (permalink)

Isolate A Bad Frequency?

Hi Guys
 
Continuing to have issues with my vocal tracks, but I'm determined to fix this problem if it's the last thing I do.  Frankly, of late I've been feeling like just taking a sledge hammer to all of my damned equipment.  I just finished another project today and I thought it was getting better but it's not.  I use an Avantone CV 12 tube condenser mic and it has like 9 different polar positions.  Two years ago I did intensive tests on ALL of the positions and they seem to all sound the same (crappy).  I've tried positioning the mic all kinds of different ways, including hanging it upside down.  Nothing helps.  So, my next plan is to try scanning frequencies using an EQ and trying to find the offending one and cutting it.  My question is-how do you recommend I do this?  I have several EQs including Waves RenEQ and the SSL Channel strip.  I'd like to scan through the frequencies slowly on ALL THE BANDS.  I have tried this with the SSL strip but I don't know if using the Ren would be better as it is a graphical EQ.  The Pro channel EQ has the best of both worlds (graphical & pots).  So, how do you think would be best to do this?  This seems to be a never ending excercise and if I don't find a solution soon I think I'll go off the deep end and do something very unsavory to my music room and all of the gear in it.  Seriously!  I've had it!!  Please help me!!
 
John B

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
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 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Rbh
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 04:14:32 (permalink)
You can do this with Cakes Eq or just about any other that allows you to narrow the frequency band sufficiently. Simply - narrow one of the bands and give it a sufficient boost - say + 12db. You might want to to lower the fader a bit - then sweep it during playback and you will find several regions that exhibit a lot of offending resonance. Once you pin point the frequency that invokes the ice pick - lower the gain to taste. You might find a couple of these resonant peeks. You can easily by-pass the band to compare pre and post eq processing.

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Audioicon
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 06:01:17 (permalink)
Johnbee58
Hi Guys
 
Continuing to have issues with my vocal tracks, but I'm determined to fix this problem if it's the last thing I do.  Frankly, of late I've been feeling like just taking a sledge hammer to all of my damned equipment.  I just finished another project today and I thought it was getting better but it's not.  I use an Avantone CV 12 tube condenser mic and it has like 9 different polar positions.  Two years ago I did intensive tests on ALL of the positions and they seem to all sound the same (crappy).  I've tried positioning the mic all kinds of different ways, including hanging it upside down.  Nothing helps.  So, my next plan is to try scanning frequencies using an EQ and trying to find the offending one and cutting it.  My question is-how do you recommend I do this?  I have several EQs including Waves RenEQ and the SSL Channel strip.  I'd like to scan through the frequencies slowly on ALL THE BANDS.  I have tried this with the SSL strip but I don't know if using the Ren would be better as it is a graphical EQ.  The Pro channel EQ has the best of both worlds (graphical & pots).  So, how do you think would be best to do this?  This seems to be a never ending excercise and if I don't find a solution soon I think I'll go off the deep end and do something very unsavory to my music room and all of the gear in it.  Seriously!  I've had it!!  Please help me!!
 
John B




Okay, one of the issue you are going to experience is, there are lot of professionals and opinion out there.
I stopped reading that stuff, like taking Master Mix classes and all that crap.
However, what I have continued to do is to follow technical articles. Not articles about fixing things but what something does.

For example: I might read an article about Side Chaining or Changing the Tube in my Microphone but I wont read articles or watch videos that says, "Here is how to record vocals or How to Make Your Kick Sit In a Mix."


With that said here are a few tips for you:
  1. You mentioned Microphone, lets start there, not all Mics will work on a particular signal.
    My recommendation, find some place that rent mics, rent a few and try them on your signal, then pick what works best for you.
  2. Remove all of the effects from your audio and listen to the raw tracks, do they sound the way you want them to? Are there any distortion or undesired sound? For example: Mics have different SPL's, this will determine how loud of a signal you get to jam into it. You can test this by signing/playing loud passages while slowly moving close or away from the Mic. If you are still having distortion after playing only the raw tracks, then it is your source material.
  3. Do you need to process anything? Some people believe you need to add EQ and compression.
    Compression was important in the 50's and 60's when you had to put 100 things into a few tracks.
    With automation you can get polished results without compression anything.
    My point is, if the source sounds great, then let it be, you do not need to add anything to it.
    Most people compress for color but do you need color?
  4. Finally, Are you doing things right?
    I am assuming you are recording yourself? If so, try to record without pre-effects, meaning record as clean as possible. Make sure you are not clipping at the pre-amp stage.
    To help you with this, find someone, even a friend and let them sing into your rig, then adjust the settings until it sounds great. Then try singing or playing yourself, do you sound better?

Regarding the removal of bad frequency, is this low frequency, what kind of a sound are we talking about?
Remember, don't treat frequencies as sound, instead threat them simply as a spectrum in which a sound resides. Think of Frequency as a place, a room or a box that stores something.

Low noise and rumble will reside at around 80hz. Using a low shelf will get rid of this.

To conclude what distortion or noise are you experiencing?

By the way, I love your humor.

Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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msmcleod
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 07:44:23 (permalink)
Rbh
You can do this with Cakes Eq or just about any other that allows you to narrow the frequency band sufficiently. Simply - narrow one of the bands and give it a sufficient boost - say + 12db. You might want to to lower the fader a bit - then sweep it during playback and you will find several regions that exhibit a lot of offending resonance. Once you pin point the frequency that invokes the ice pick - lower the gain to taste. You might find a couple of these resonant peeks. You can easily by-pass the band to compare pre and post eq processing.



+1 to this method.
 
Audioicon
Johnbee58
...I use an Avantone CV 12 tube condenser mic and it has like 9 different polar positions.  Two years ago I did intensive tests on ALL of the positions and they seem to all sound the same (crappy)....

...
You mentioned Microphone, lets start there, not all Mics will work on a particular signal.
My recommendation, find some place that rent mics, rent a few and try them on your signal, then pick what works best for you...



This is so true.
 
Regardless of how good your mic is, not all mics suit all vocalists - everyone is different.
 
I've got 4 condenser mics, and none of them match my vocals in most circumstances. I've ended up going back to my SM58 which sounds great.
 
Given the SM58 sounds so much better, I suspect an SM7 would suit me, but given the experiences with other mics, renting one and trying it out is sound advice.
 

Mark McLeod
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Johnbee58
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 09:37:15 (permalink)
The state of the music stores in my area is that most have moved out long ago.  You can't even buy guitar strings in Reading PA let alone rent mics.  I keep hoping to see a Guitar Center pop up someday but I'm not holding my breath.
 
I THINK it's a frequency that's the offender, but it could also be a reverb, but then again the signal, even dry, sounds crappy so that's what leads me to believe it's a frequency.  It's also hard to describe but it sounds like a low frequency kind of rumble.  I'll get a sample together soon and post it.  Thanks so much!
 
JB

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msmcleod
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 10:01:24 (permalink)
This video pretty much covers the basics of all the advice I've heard over the years on EQ'ing vocals:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdDDVortvRU
 

Mark McLeod
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Lord Tim
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 10:31:41 (permalink)
How does your room sound? It could be comb filtering from wall reflections too, and EQ doesn't do a great job at fixing that. I'd say that's a pretty common reason for crappy sounding vocal recordings.

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Johnbee58
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 12:36:51 (permalink)
https://johnbowen.bandcamp.com/track/beyond-the-writing-on-the-wall
 
Here's a full song I just finished yesterday.  After giving my ears a well deserved break I came to the conclusion this morning that the vocals here don't sound half bad.  The song is in a comfortable range for me so there's no straining (at least not too much).  I used my Avantone CV12 mic here.  I also have a Peavey dynamic, an Apex condenser and a MEMS mic (a souvenir from ARC 2.0) which doesn't do a bad job of recording vocals either.  I used it on two previous projects.
The song above is kind of epic, but I'm open to review.  If, however, you wish to "cut to the chase" for the vocals, they start @ 0.42 and end @ 4:56.
As always, thanks!
JB

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 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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mettelus
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 15:24:28 (permalink)
For harmonic material, Melda's MCharacter is one of the most useful tools out there for monophonic material. It is best when used on the audio prior to subsequent FX. Using a generic EQ on a "walking" frequency harmonic can unnecessarily dig into content you wish to keep.

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Jimbo 88
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 15:44:19 (permalink)
My guess is your problem is what's behind your mic when you record...you are picking up too much room.  Isolate the mic more.  Try something like the product in the link below. but make sure what is behind you is treated also.  Trying to remove things (like frequencies) after the recording is harder than just getting a good recording from the get-go.
I have built my own isolation stands and they make a big difference.  If I can build them ANYONE can...trust me on that!
 
Good Luck.
 
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ReflexionX--se-electronics-reflexion-filter-by-portable-vocal-booth
 
 

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Johnbee58
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 16:12:45 (permalink)
Jimbo 88
My guess is your problem is what's behind your mic when you record...you are picking up too much room.  Isolate the mic more.  Try something like the product in the link below. but make sure what is behind you is treated also.  Trying to remove things (like frequencies) after the recording is harder than just getting a good recording from the get-go.
I have built my own isolation stands and they make a big difference.  If I can build them ANYONE can...trust me on that!
 
Good Luck.
 
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ReflexionX--se-electronics-reflexion-filter-by-portable-vocal-booth
 
 


I wonder if you've ever seen pictures of my room.  I have posted pics here not long ago.   I do have Auralex treatment and installed as per their advise, but the room is very small (5' x 12').
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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msmcleod
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 17:29:12 (permalink)
Johnbee58
Jimbo 88
My guess is your problem is what's behind your mic when you record...you are picking up too much room.  Isolate the mic more.  Try something like the product in the link below. but make sure what is behind you is treated also.  Trying to remove things (like frequencies) after the recording is harder than just getting a good recording from the get-go.
I have built my own isolation stands and they make a big difference.  If I can build them ANYONE can...trust me on that!
 
Good Luck.
 
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ReflexionX--se-electronics-reflexion-filter-by-portable-vocal-booth
 
 


I wonder if you've ever seen pictures of my room.  I have posted pics here not long ago.   I do have Auralex treatment and installed as per their advise, but the room is very small (5' x 12').
JB


To my ears, your vocal sound is pretty good as is.
 
If you've not already done so, you could try to add a high-pass filter to roll off some of the low end, try starting between 60 & 100 Hz. You shouldn't hear any change to the vocals in solo at these frequencies, but it may remove any muddiness if there's any rumble competing with other tracks. 
 
You could also try a small boost somewhere between 2KHz - 5KHz to bring out the presence, but to be honest it doesn't sound as if it needs it much here.
 

Mark McLeod
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stratman70
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 18:46:23 (permalink)
Hello John,
I remember commenting in another thread about your voice. So now listening to the song here I have an opinion.
I am beginning to wonder if it's "your voice" you do not like? Please understand, it sounds fine to me. It sounds like you. 
At a small get together, I played a recording of a song I wrote for some friends wedding. The folks that were listening to the recording asked me "who is that singing"? I was shocked. I said that's me. True story.
 
I really do not hear any offending freq's. but that's just my opinion.
 

 
 
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Anderton
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 18:47:14 (permalink)
I think the tone is what it is, and that's not the issue. IMHO the problem with the vocals is that they're not produced. That's the difference between a so-so vocal and a good vocal.
 
With the right production, I think you'd have a voice very much like the lead singer in Bread. I'd recommend:
 
1. Melodyne is your friend. If you fixed the pitchiness, that would help give the vocal strength.
2. Phrase-by-phrase normalization can also add strength to the vocal.
3. Breathing is crucial for singing. You want to push air up from your diaphragm, not sing from the mouth or throat. Get a deep inhale before a phrase, and push the air out. If the breath noise is too prominent, do a fade in on it.
4. Doubling parts judiciously in crucial parts, with the doubled vocal way back would make the vocal not seem to stark, and blend better with the song.
5. A little ambience would be good. Try some reverb - NOT with a long decay time, but with a short decay time. If anything, to my ears the voice sounds almost too isolated. I think a little room sound in there would help, especially if it was done artificially so you could control it.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Anderton
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 18:55:34 (permalink)
I think the tone is what it is, and that's not the issue. IMHO the problem with the vocals is that they're not produced. That's the difference between a so-so vocal and a good vocal.
 
With the right production, I think you'd have a voice very much like the lead singer in Bread. I'd recommend:
 
1. Melodyne is your friend. If you fixed the pitchiness, that would help give the vocal strength.
2. Phrase-by-phrase normalization can also add strength to the vocal.
3. Breathing is crucial for singing. You want to push air up from your diaphragm, not sing from the mouth or throat. Get a deep inhale before a phrase, and push the air out. If the breath noise is too prominent, do a fade in on it.
4. Doubling parts judiciously in crucial sections of the song, with the doubled vocal way back would make the vocal not seem to stark, and blend better with the song.
5. A little ambience would be good. Try some reverb - NOT with a long decay time, but with a short decay time. If anything, to my ears the voice sounds almost too isolated.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Anderton
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 18:57:04 (permalink)
BTW, John Lennon hated the sound of his voice. He did okay 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Johnbee58
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 19:45:47 (permalink)
Thanks all!
 
Mr. Anderton , I feel somewhat honored for a person I consider a home recording "guru" to have listened and evaluated one of my tracks.  I remember I bought a book of yours back in the late 80s.  I don't remember what it was called but it was interesting for the equipment available at the time. I also remember it had a "soundsheet" record with it.  It was back in the days before drum machines sounded like real drums and more like "beat boxes", but that was what many of us in the home studio realm were using then.
 
 I do have some reverb on it but I depend mostly on delay, which I also have on it.  I've learned recently how to actually set a delay to sound like an effect and not a "special effect".  IOW set it up to give depth and not to just make something sound weird.  I could go more on both these elements and I'll try it next session.
 
Yesterday, when I posted my rather colorful cry for help, I spent the better part of my day in my recording room with the headphones on working on this.  I finally called it quits for the day at around 6 PM.  This morning, with fresh ears, I went back in for a final tweak and asked myself just what I complaining about.  This morning it sounded fine, even to my hypercritical ears.  On this project I applied many of the techniques I've made myself finally actually learn and I think it's panning out.  Up until just a few months ago I would just either use presets or blindly turn knobs and move fader controls and hope for the best.  As with anything else, it pays to learn what you're doing so I've looked intensively at tutorials and literature on how to apply equalization and compression, set up a delay to give depth (in addition to reverb) and other tidbits of knowledge largely from this forum and other places as well.  Actually, I never even used compression before because, in my ignorant mind, it only made the sound worse, but that was only because I didn't know what the hell I was doing with it.  Now, I'm finally realizing how much of a valuable tool compression can be IF you know how to use it.
 
Thanks all so much for all of your help.  My knowledge of recording/producing grows more everyday in no small part with your help.
 
JB

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 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Anderton
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 20:02:28 (permalink)
Johnbee58
I never even used compression before because, in my ignorant mind, it only made the sound worse, but that was only because I didn't know what the hell I was doing with it.  Now, I'm finally realizing how much of a valuable tool compression can be IF you know how to use it.



We're all learning...always!
 
I don't like the sound of compression "working," so after doing phrase-by-phrase normalization I use a limiter to take off the main peaks, followed by a compressor - but at that point, very little compression is actually needed.
 
If you want to hear what all the above tips sound like in action, please listen to the song previews for "Simplicity." 
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Audioicon
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 21:00:55 (permalink)
Anderton
1. Melodyne is your friend. If you fixed the pitchiness, that would help give the vocal strength.



This is like prescription pain killers.
You advised the OP to do really great things and I agree 100%, however, the above will ultimately diminish the efforts.
If we are telling someone to practice air control, but at the same time use the above, not sure that will help in the long run.

I am not saying it's wrong to use the above but if the guy needs to practice, this will in a nutshell make him perplexed.
(A politically correct way of saying lazy). 

Even I will get perplexed. 



post edited by Audioicon - 2018/09/10 21:24:41

Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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seanmichaelrobinson
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 21:15:29 (permalink)
>>I am not saying it's wrong to use the above but if the guy needs to practice, this will in a nutshell make him perplexed.>>
 
100 percent!
 
Johnbee--to my ear you have a very pleasing, character-ful voice, which seems to be reasonably matched to your vocal mic! A mean feat in itself. I'd say, as far as this particular mix, it's high enough in the mix and dry enough to sound a little exposed to my ears. I'd be tempted to knock it down just a hair in volume and use a mild bit of delay (with no feedback) and very mild amount of reverb to help it sit in the music rather than on top of it.
 
As for the pitch, it's definitely much further off where you're jumping intervals (singing "skips") rather than singing the nearest-neighbor notes. I'd suggest, when you've written a new song, you take some time singing the song, as excruciatingly slowly as you can, while playing JUST the melody along on a fixed-pitch instrument such as a keyboard or guitar, playing the melody in unison with your singing. No chords, just the melody. And after a few passes at this you'll hone in on the areas (most likely jumps) that are the most pitchy, i.e. places where your vocal is initially wandering from the fixed-pitch instrument. These are the places to practice! Wash, rinse, repeat. Your intonation will improve in no time.
 
You have a lovely voice and this is a lovely melody. And obviously you have some singing skills already! But what will push this to the next level is a greater awareness of pitch, especially when the intervals involved are less familiar to your voice.
 
Keep doing what you're doing John :) No need to smash your equipment with hammers. Just keep enjoying yourself and moving forward with every song!
#20
Anderton
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/10 21:55:58 (permalink)
Pitch correction is a tool. You can be lazy, and just pitch-correct everything. You can listen back to a vocal, and fix only the pitches that sound wrong. To me, the biggest value of pitch correction is that far from sucking the life out of vocals, it's made my vocals more emotional.
 
Huh?!?
 
Yes, really. I take a lot more chances with my vocals because I know that if there's a bad note or two, I can fix it rather than have to re-do the vocal (and lose the spontaneity) or punch, which puts me in left-brain mode. Since pitch correction came along, more of my vocals are first or second take, and I think the vocals are better for it.
 
I should also add that many people forget that pitch correction can uncorrect. It's very difficult (at least for me) to sing deliberately off-pitch by, say, 10 or 30 cents. Yet sometimes, there are notes that sound better when they're not precisely on-pitch. I suppose if I practiced enough, I could learn to sing off-pitch by tiny amounts, but I'd rather practice other things and just use Melodyne to change the pitch if needed.
 
Back in the 50s, people would get totally bent out of shape that singers were using equalization. Today it's accepted that equalization is just another tool for making vocals sound better. Sure, I could try out 100 different mics to find which one gives the perfect high-end lift that flatters my voice. But I'm in the studio to record a vocal, not evaluate mics...it expedites the creative process to choose a mic out of a handful of mics that comes close, and add the high-end lift exactly where I want it with EQ.
 
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#21
Johnbee58
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 00:36:04 (permalink)
I did run Melodyne on this but I guess I missed a few spots.  My voice issue, as far as pitch is concerned is more control than pitch recognition.  It's like trying to drive a car with a bad front end.  You know where you want to take it, but you just can't aim it right.  I've been seriously considering voice lessons because I also have asthma and I know it's not impossible for asthmatics to sing.  They just need some extra coaching and a strict practice routine.
 
JB
 
 

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
#22
Euthymia
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 00:36:22 (permalink)
All good advice, especially the freq. sweeping with a boost to find the freq.'s that "honk" and then pulling them back. I usually start by pulling them down 3db then un-solo the track and see how the mix sounds.
 
BTW, have you gone to Pluginboutique.com to snag the deal on iZotope Ozone Elements? Free with any purchase, so buy something for $1 and you have it.
 
It's a mastering suite, but the EQ is excellent and versatile and great for this kind of surgery. Just turn off the other modules and it's a standalone EQ.

-Erik
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Warning: if you tell me my issue can be remedied by buying more RAM, an SSD, or a Waves plug-in, I will troll you pitiilessly
#23
Johnbee58
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 00:46:23 (permalink)
Euthymia
 
 
BTW, have you gone to Pluginboutique.com to snag the deal on iZotope Ozone Elements? Free with any purchase, so buy something for $1 and you have it.
 
It's a mastering suite, but the EQ is excellent and versatile and great for this kind of surgery. Just turn off the other modules and it's a standalone EQ.


YES, YES, YES!!
I bought Scaler and with the newsletter subscription I became the proud owner of Ozone 8 Elements, and I'm totally in love with it!!  It's a great program @ $129.00, but even better FREE!!
 
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
#24
seanmichaelrobinson
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 03:17:52 (permalink)
Hey Anderton-
 
I'm not saying "Never use Melodyne!: I'm saying, if one spends an hour of focused vocal practice on a new or unfamiliar song, as outlined above, you can reasonably expect to not only be able to sing the song in question much better, but to improve generally as a vocalist. If one spends an hour tinkering with Melodyne...you'll improve your abilities with Melodyne.
 
As the old expression goes, "If you teach a man to fish, he can feed himself forever. But teach a man to tune a fish..." Wait, where was I going with this?

One last thing--
 
>>Back in the 50s, people would get totally bent out of shape that singers were using equalization.>>
 
Who? Surely not any engineers. Certainly not good ol' Johnny Mathis and the Percy Faith Orchestra (or whatever genius was manning the controls that day...)
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuOa0uNM1Sg
 
(is it early for Christmas tunes yet? Or does Johnny M get a pass?)
#25
Anderton
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 03:41:00 (permalink)
seanmichaelrobinson
Hey Anderton-
 
I'm not saying "Never use Melodyne!: I'm saying, if one spends an hour of focused vocal practice on a new or unfamiliar song, as outlined above, you can reasonably expect to not only be able to sing the song in question much better, but to improve generally as a vocalist. If one spends an hour tinkering with Melodyne...you'll improve your abilities with Melodyne.

 
Agreed completely. But when you hit a wall and the vocal is what it is, Melodyne can help take it a bit further.
 
One last thing--
 
>>Back in the 50s, people would get totally bent out of shape that singers were using equalization.>>
 
Who? Surely not any engineers. Certainly not good ol' Johnny Mathis and the Percy Faith Orchestra (or whatever genius was manning the controls that day...)



No, not engineers...mostly critics, record reviewers, and others "arbiters of taste." Then again, when it comes to critics, I defer to the sentiments expressed by Barnum in "The Greatest Showman" 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#26
Johnbee58
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 09:46:54 (permalink)
Hey, Seanmichael;
I appreciate your feedback and suggestions for sure and they make sense........
but...........
I don't know if it's my asthma or just my advanced age (63), but when I record vocals I record line by line.  It might not sound that way (hopefully it doesn't) but every line I punch in takes me several ( sometimes up to 20+) takes to nail it at least adequate enough to call it acceptable.  So, in that sense, I do practice.  And before you suggest waiting till I know the song better in my mind, I've tried that more than once.  One would think "OK, now that you're more familiar with it go back and do a more complete take and it will sound better".  And that would probably work for most, but not for me.  It seems the more familiar I get with a melody the harder it is to sing it.
 
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
#27
Euthymia
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 10:00:52 (permalink)
Anderton
 Back in the 50s, people would get totally bent out of shape that singers were using equalization. Today it's accepted that equalization is just another tool for making vocals sound better. Sure, I could try out 100 different mics to find which one gives the perfect high-end lift that flatters my voice. But I'm in the studio to record a vocal, not evaluate mics...it expedites the creative process to choose a mic out of a handful of mics that comes close, and add the high-end lift exactly where I want it with EQ.

 
Oy, people with their little bits of knowledge. Once the general public (at least the part of the general public that writes about recorded sound) learned that there were such things as EQ and compression, I think they became suspicious that professional studio recordings were being manipulated with these tools to make crappy performers sound "better" than they would without them and to make otherwise "raw" performances sound "slick." And that if mix engineers would just lay off, the honest artistry of the performers would shine through.
 
There is this notion, and I have seen and heard it hinted at both by audiophool types and by otherwise sane people, that there is some kind of ideal of recorded and reproduced sound of leaving it untouched between the mic and the speaker, as if the application of EQ and/or compression is somehow "unnatural."
 
The belief is that what a good recording engineer should do is buy 750 different mics and learn how to perfectly place them, and for their part, the talent should learn to tailor the dynamics of their performances so perfectly to the recorded medium that there is no need for dynamics processing. If the recording sounds like it "needs" EQ or compression or some other contamination, what you really need to do is find another mic, or move the mic you are using, and have the talent play it again. They should be happy to do so, even if they are the ones paying you for studio time.
 
Back on planet Earth, our listening apparatus itself has both EQ and compression built into it not to mention the huge effect that the construction of the mic and speaker and their placement in the recording and listening environment inevitably have.
 
Put on a recording, put on a blindfold, then turn your head, tilt your head, stand up, sit down, and you'll hear variations in "EQ." Turn up the volume and your ears' built in "compression" (or is it "dynamic EQ?") will start kicking in and leveling out the transients. Also, the volume will have an effect on the tonal balance of the reproduced sound as well, thank you Fletcher and Munson.

-Erik
___________
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Warning: if you tell me my issue can be remedied by buying more RAM, an SSD, or a Waves plug-in, I will troll you pitiilessly
#28
Johnbee58
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 15:45:17 (permalink)
Euthymia
Anderton
 Back in the 50s, people would get totally bent out of shape that singers were using equalization. Today it's accepted that equalization is just another tool for making vocals sound better. Sure, I could try out 100 different mics to find which one gives the perfect high-end lift that flatters my voice. But I'm in the studio to record a vocal, not evaluate mics...it expedites the creative process to choose a mic out of a handful of mics that comes close, and add the high-end lift exactly where I want it with EQ.

 
Oy, people with their little bits of knowledge. Once the general public (at least the part of the general public that writes about recorded sound) learned that there were such things as EQ and compression, I think they became suspicious that professional studio recordings were being manipulated with these tools to make crappy performers sound "better" than they would without them and to make otherwise "raw" performances sound "slick." And that if mix engineers would just lay off, the honest artistry of the performers would shine through.
 




 
The names Fabian & Milli Vanilli come to mind.
 
On this notion that everything we hear in recorded entertainment should be "pure and real" and that true talent should never need to be artificially manipulated in any way.  If we are to go by these "purists" then the whole practice of multitrack recording is a lie.  In most cases, modern pop and rock recordings are creating an artificial landscape to the listeners where every member of the band and everything on the recording happened all at the same time and in the same place with no overdubbing or treatment or manipulation.  The reality, most of the time, is that recordings are "productions" and made in pieces like a Hollywood movie.  Rhythm tracks may (or may not) be recorded together but vocals are dubbed later as are embellishments like horns and strings (or other things) and in many cases in different locations.  Then all of the elements are "mixed" with all kinds of echo and delay and special effects added that could never actually be part of the  "image" that we hear from our stereos when we put on the record.  And it's all Les Paul's fault for creating this deception! (how DARE he)!!  So those who want to accuse some of us for using a little pitch control here and there or spicing the vocals up with a bit of EQ and compression, well, maybe somebody like you should just ditch Cakewalk, Pro Tools, Ableton, Logic or whatever else you're multitracking on and just trade all that in for a simple 2 track recorder and do everything live.
 
I would wager that if Beethoven were alive and creating music today, he would be using a Pro Tools rig himself because when a technology is there, in music, medicine, engineering or anything else, we are inclined to use it for the simple fact that it tends to help us make a better product or service.  That's just human nature.
 
JB

Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers.  Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7,
NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer.
 
 "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening."   Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
#29
Audioicon
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Re: Isolate A Bad Frequency? 2018/09/11 17:39:35 (permalink)
Johnbee58
 
The names Fabian & Milli Vanilli come to mind.
 
On this notion that everything we hear in recorded entertainment should be "pure and real" and that true talent should never need to be artificially manipulated in any way.  If we are to go by these "purists" then the whole practice of multitrack recording is a lie.  In most cases, modern pop and rock recordings are creating an artificial landscape to the listeners where every member of the band and everything on the recording happened all at the same time and in the same place with no overdubbing or treatment or manipulation.  The reality, most of the time, is that recordings are "productions" and made in pieces like a Hollywood movie.  Rhythm tracks may (or may not) be recorded together but vocals are dubbed later as are embellishments like horns and strings (or other things) and in many cases in different locations.  Then all of the elements are "mixed" with all kinds of echo and delay and special effects added that could never actually be part of the  "image" that we hear from our stereos when we put on the record.  And it's all Les Paul's fault for creating this deception! (how DARE he)!!  So those who want to accuse some of us for using a little pitch control here and there or spicing the vocals up with a bit of EQ and compression, well, maybe somebody like you should just ditch Cakewalk, Pro Tools, Ableton, Logic or whatever else you're multitracking on and just trade all that in for a simple 2 track recorder and do everything live.
 
I would wager that if Beethoven were alive and creating music today, he would be using a Pro Tools rig himself because when a technology is there, in music, medicine, engineering or anything else, we are inclined to use it for the simple fact that it tends to help us make a better product or service.  That's just human nature.
 
JB



I think you are taken this a bit further then it needs to go.
I personally have never used Vocal Software like Melodyne because I'm a traditionalist, I like to do things the hard way. 

I am recording a song as we speak, the first set of tracks were great but the key was low and I wasn't feeling it.
  1. I could have run for Melodyne, BOOM! Fix.
  2. I could change the key of the song and sing the parts again, which is what I did.
If I screw-up on a high passage, I undo and do it again, and sometimes, I will rehearse a song in the car on my way to work or I will let it rest for a day, then come back to it.

If I cannot sing something, then I wont try to sing it but I wont fix it with software.

So what's the difference between using a loop or computer generated sound vs using Melodyne?

For me singing is like my blood, it is very personal, correcting my pitch with software and making me appear to do something I cannot do is IMPO misleading. 

Now some engineers will use this to fix things here and there, that to me is acceptable.

To conclude, what we are telling you is simple:

Practice, Practice, Practice, use the software only to fix almost perfect passages that You can perfect but do not have the time, NOT for passages that you cannot sing.

Fabian & Milli Vanilli are a fraud, hopefully you will not follow that example.

By the way, some songs are not for every singer, not everyone can sing and not everyone will sound great on every material. Find a material that works better with your voice and vocal skills.

Mick Jagger will never sound like Barry White.



Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
#30
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