SoundRegion
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/13 13:35:21
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Cactus Music Listening to the tracks and also LOOKING at the wave forms I think your suffering from not so much the recording part, but mixing and mastering. Your songs are a little out of balance and the overall level is weak. LOOK at a commercial recording of that style of music and you will see the waveform is a solid brickwall. There's no room for dynamics in pop music. ( and even country now) Slam that puppy with your mastering tools and get your average RMS level around -12db. My guess is your 10db away from that goal. Thanks for listening. I'm currently uploading my new mix of the Shubidua cover (.Wav this time zzzz) .Allready better than the prevous. I guess that's why my Landr versions is always much louder. After exporting I have been using Audacity to normalize and thought that might be enough. Oh, and on the topic of vintage synths, I was making a track for Mony Mony and wanted a Jump kinda sound I must have spent way to long looking. I had to preview most all the soft synths that looked possible. I was shocked at how bad a lot of the included stuff was, what is all that for?? Anyhow I finally found it in Roland Groove synth. Synth Stack. And even funnier was a great patch in Good old TTS-1! Just crank the chorus up. Which brings up another point, if you want good synth sounds, you need to go beyond the pre sets and start editing. It's always been that way.
Yes, I know. I remember doing that on my old Korg Poly-800, but every synth seem to have a different set of knobs and it just takes time to get to know the impact they have. I have spend a lot of time looking for the right sound, unable to find it, so you're right.
Steen ------------------ Sonar Professional - Akai EIE pro - AKG K240 - AKG C5 - Behringer XM-2000 - Hagström Ultra Swede - Evolution MK-149 - Musima Resonata - Komplete 10 - Mackie CR4 BT Soundcloud Bandcamp
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/13 13:57:33
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SoundRegion I guess that's why my Landr versions is always much louder. After exporting I have been using Audacity to normalize and thought that might be enough.
Normalizing isn't one of the things you do to get loud mixes. In the quest for loudness it's about meaningless.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/14 04:22:12
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I cannot recommend OP-X Pro II enough for "vintage" synth sounds. It isn't even very expensive and comes with loads of presets, both creative and modeled after famous sounds. As for brickwall limiting, PLEASE don't "slam" your track until it's a sausage.
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SilkTone
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/14 13:16:08
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Sanderxpander I cannot recommend OP-X Pro II enough for "vintage" synth sounds. It isn't even very expensive and comes with loads of presets, both creative and modeled after famous sounds.
I checked out OP-X Pro II and it sounds pretty impressive (listen to the preset demos here). The way they list the price is a bit confusing though. Is the "special" price $179? Right now €85 is $96.
Windows 10 Pro x64, SONAR Platinum 64-bitFocusrite Scarlett 18i8 USB, ASRock Z97 Pro4, Haswell 4790k @ 4.4GHz32GB DDR3/1600, 500GB SSD (OS) + 256 GB SSD + 3TB MDNVIDIA GTX-1070, 40" 4K Monitor + 1 Monitor in ISO booth
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BASSIC Productions
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/14 14:22:32
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When you are writing MIDI files, you have to understand that there is a variety of information beyond the "note on" and "note off" information. Most good samples, including those in Sonar, will sound different based upon intensity of the note (how hard you strike the key), aftertouch (key holding force), portamento (sort of a note-to-note style) and many other functions of the sample library. You can see some of this info in various windows of Sonar, including right clicking a MIDI note. Sonar can be pretty difficult to do phrasing as its MIDI editor windows are limited. I did this version of "Sing, Sing, Sing" with Sonar (back in the Cakewalk 9.0 version) by right clicking each note and entering a mathematical beat map I created on paper (I also used Cakewalk to record and add the sound effects to make it sound a bit dated. The synth is just GM. This project took 6 months!)... https://soundcloud.com/bassic-productions/sing-sing-sing-with-a-swing I did a study of John William's "Raiders of the Lost Ark" music using Finale to create the MIDI file and recreate an actual musical score. I then imported the MIDI file into Sonar for mixing and mastering. I used Sonar's version of the Dimension Pro synth with their basic samples. Again, many notes needed to be modified to create the exact sound to match the original orchestral players. It also meant that most parts needed to have different MIDI channels to create the sounds a single instrumentalist would just do in performance (this project took about 4 months)... https://soundcloud.com/ba...aiders-of-the-lost-ark To sound professional, you will still need skilled editors, mix/mastering engineers and all of the work a standard "real" recording production would require. "Virtual" orchestras are no different. Sonar is an excellent DAW but it can't replace any professional musician, engineer or producer... it is just a tool.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/14 18:00:31
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SilkTone
Sanderxpander I cannot recommend OP-X Pro II enough for "vintage" synth sounds. It isn't even very expensive and comes with loads of presets, both creative and modeled after famous sounds.
I checked out OP-X Pro II and it sounds pretty impressive (listen to the preset demos here). The way they list the price is a bit confusing though. Is the "special" price $179? Right now €85 is $96.
Oh huh 179 sounds more than what I paid. Was more like 80 euros. Totally worth it though.
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digimidi
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/14 21:51:49
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Recording is an art and a science. If I gave a friend of mine the same software (Sonar) and all of its resources, I can almost guarantee that he would not achieve the same results that I would. I have been recording for decades and am still learning how to improve my sound and mixes. Cheers!
I started out with nothing and I still have most of it left... http://daveowenmusic.com/http://fabulous52s.com/https://soundcloud.com/daveowenmusic Sonar Platinum Edition/Cakewalk by BandLab: Dell 8700 XPS i7 16GB RAM, Cyberpower laptop w/8GB RAM/i7/2GB NVidia card/Tascam US1641/Focusrite 18i6/Melodyne Studio 4/Waves Plugs (a lot)/Garritan/EWQL Symphony Silver & Fab 4 and a bunch of other stuff. Studio One 3/Magix Samplitude Pro X3 Suite/Mixcraft 8 Pro/Reaper/Acid Pro 8
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konradh
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/14 22:30:33
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/05/15 06:00:49
If you can post the song on SoundCloud and then share the link, maybe I will have some ideas. Or maybe we will all think it sounds great.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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Zargg
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 05:47:40
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I agree with Konrad. Upload to SoundCloud, (and maybe share here http://forum.cakewalk.com/Songs-f89.aspx) and link that song to this thread. That way you will get more than "just our" feedback. There are a lot of very good and helpful ears here  All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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SoundRegion
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 06:39:07
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konradh If you can post the song on SoundCloud and then share the link, maybe I will have some ideas. Or maybe we will all think it sounds great.
What happened what that I got the idea to finish some old project that have been on the harddrive for a while (some up to 18 years), because they needed someone to sing, but I decided to sing myself, which is something I have not done and it's obvious why. A while after the upload to Soundcloud I decided to play them on the big stereo and was very dissapointed. An example: https://soundcloud.com/soundregion/bageren-og-servitricen-shubidua-cover I thought the drums sounded fake, the vocals were muttled and not clear and the powerchords and string were almost inaudible. After the advise given here, I tried to mix using the JBL encounter speakers instead of the headphones: https://soundcloud.com/soundregion/bageren-og-servitricen-new-mix/ Still not perfect, but a definite improvement. I tried Landr, but I think it leveled it out too much.
Steen ------------------ Sonar Professional - Akai EIE pro - AKG K240 - AKG C5 - Behringer XM-2000 - Hagström Ultra Swede - Evolution MK-149 - Musima Resonata - Komplete 10 - Mackie CR4 BT Soundcloud Bandcamp
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BASSIC Productions
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 11:26:29
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I would be happy to work with you on the Shubidua cover (I couldn't follow your new mix link). As a quick suggestion, I would advise you to listen to each track (instrument) and try to imagine that you are the pianist, drummer, bassist, violinists, ect. Listen to them by themselves and imagine you are playing the line and/or phrase (for instance, the drum part seems to lack fills, paradiddles and cymbol parts that can help make them sound less "fake").
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SoundRegion
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 11:35:02
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BASSIC Productions I would be happy to you with the Shubidua cover (I couldn't follow your new mix link). As a quick suggestion, I would advise you to listen to each track (instrument) and try to imagine that you are the pianist, drummer, bassist, violinists, ect. Listen to them by themselves and imagine you are playing the line and/or phrase (for instance, the drum part seems to lack fills, paradiddles and cymbol parts that can help make them sound less "fake").
Thanks a lot. Sorry about the link. I actually thought "private" meant that you could still access it by direct link. I just didn't want 2 of the same on the list. It should be accessible now. I think I'm on the right path now. I found some cables, so I can connect my speakers to the Akai. Much better now.
Steen ------------------ Sonar Professional - Akai EIE pro - AKG K240 - AKG C5 - Behringer XM-2000 - Hagström Ultra Swede - Evolution MK-149 - Musima Resonata - Komplete 10 - Mackie CR4 BT Soundcloud Bandcamp
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BASSIC Productions
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 11:56:02
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That is a much better mix! Next, it has a pretty dry sound. I would suggest a little reverb to put the instruments into a "physical" space (just as a suggestion, when you think you have the reverb sounding cool, lower it in the mix a little; you will like it better after hundreds of listens).
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SoundRegion
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 12:23:17
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BASSIC Productions That is a much better mix! Next, it has a pretty dry sound. I would suggest a little reverb to put the instruments into a "physical" space (just as a suggestion, when you think you have the reverb sounding cool, lower it in the mix a little; you will like it better after hundreds of listens).
Thanks for your input. I tried it and it works. I used reverb on my audio tracks, but I don't think I've used it on the whole mix before.
Steen ------------------ Sonar Professional - Akai EIE pro - AKG K240 - AKG C5 - Behringer XM-2000 - Hagström Ultra Swede - Evolution MK-149 - Musima Resonata - Komplete 10 - Mackie CR4 BT Soundcloud Bandcamp
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Beepster
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 13:03:49
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg71 2016/05/15 14:00:43
SoundRegion
BASSIC Productions That is a much better mix! Next, it has a pretty dry sound. I would suggest a little reverb to put the instruments into a "physical" space (just as a suggestion, when you think you have the reverb sounding cool, lower it in the mix a little; you will like it better after hundreds of listens).
Thanks for your input. I tried it and it works. I used reverb on my audio tracks, but I don't think I've used it on the whole mix before.
What method did you use? Did you just toss a reverb on your master bus or did you use Sends and a Reverb bus? If you did not use a reverb bus or don't know the method I'm talking about look up mixing tuts/articles about "Reverb Busses" The premise is that instead of applying the reverb directly on the tracks (which will result in each instrument ending up in their own "space" instead of all the reverb being applied in a way that makes it sound more natural like everything was recorded in the same room) or on the master bus (which applies the SAME level of reverb on everything equally instead of allowing you to apply more/less levels of the SAME reverb/space to specific instruments) you create a "send" on all the the tracks in your project and send them to a special bus (create a new bus to do this and send all your tracks via the sends to that bus and then the bus goes to the master like everything else). Put your reverb effect on that bus and turn the output volume of all the Sends on each track all the way down (so nothing is being sent to your reverb bus). If your reverb effect has a "Wet/Dry" knob turn it all the way to "Wet". You want the full reverb sound applied (Wet/Dry controls mix in the original signal with the effected signal which you don;t want for this). Now start turning up the "Sends" on each of the tracks. Now main output of your tracks is still hitting your master (or any submix busses you have them routed through) and the "tap" you made with the send is going straight to the reverb bus. As you turn up the "sends" your dry signal and mix is preserved but now the reverb bus adds some "space" to the individual tracks/sounds. Since it's all the same reverb unit it sounds more like all the instruments are in the same "Space" but you can only add as much verb as each instrument needs. So maybe you want your drums or a specific drum piece to sound less dry but adding to much verb to a guitar or keyboard muddy's up the mix. Just turn up the send output more on the drums than the other tracks. This is particularly important for bass parts. Bass doesn't respond as well to reverb (you usually wnat it dry and tight to avoid bottom end mud which reverb can contribute to). You can just keep the bass reverb send very low or totally turned down and apply as much as you want/need to the otther tracks. You can also turn up multiple send outputs simultaneously in Sonar by multi "Selecting" all the tracks, holding "Ctrl" on your keyboard then turning up ONE of the selected track's sends. All of them will increase together. This is a good way to start your reverb send sound. I generally do this to set the base level of my reverb "room" sound. Like maybe everything goes up to the 9-10 o'clock position on my sends so everything is getting a touch of room. Then I go through the individual tracks and turn things up/down as needed (sometimes creating sub selected groups like turning up the sends on all the drums at once or multiple guitar tracks at once, etc). Anyway... you may already know all this but if not and you liked what reverb did for you then this "Reverb Bus" technique is the "proper" way to go about and has been used in this manner since almost the beginning of multitrack audio. Cheers.
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BASSIC Productions
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 15:46:55
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To Beepster... I agree with your bus idea but I actually think each instrument/group probably needs its own reverb first to get a good sound (very minimal) and then I do various processing busses. This gives each instrument an eq, compressor, ect. for its sound and place, then I can mix background, middle ground and fore ground sounds. Then, a final reverb to push the entire sound where you need it to be for the style. Of course, this is kind of advanced mix engineering techniques to create a soundscape when working with non-acoustical spaces for virtual instruments... and every mixing engineer has their own toolbox. In Sonar, once I'm on a bus, I usually use the FX channel because it does what you mentioned above without having to resort to the analog style of mixing more channels unless you need an effect for compositional/production usage. I think we are all examining the newer digital DAW techniques vs. our analogue mixing board productions. I don't disagree with you that your technique will work and work well but it does seem like it creates more channels/tracks than might be necessary with Sonar.
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BASSIC Productions
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 15:52:36
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To SoundRegion... I might suggest starting with simple steps, one at a time, just so you can hear how these things work in Sonar (or any other DAW) and get a good ear for the process. Personally, I think you're going to need to learn how to use various compressors to get the mix to the next step... but that is just my personal opinion.
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Beepster
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 15:57:40
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BASSIC Productions To Beepster... I agree with your bus idea but I actually think each instrument/group probably needs its own reverb first to get a good sound (very minimal) and then I do various processing busses. This gives each instrument an eq, compressor, ect. for its sound and place, then I can mix background, middle ground and fore ground sounds. Then, a final reverb to push the entire sound where you need it to be for the style. Of course, this is kind of advanced mix engineering techniques to create a soundscape when working with non-acoustical spaces for virtual instruments... and every mixing engineer has their own toolbox. In Sonar, once I'm on a bus, I usually use the FX channel because it does what you mentioned above without having to resort to the analog style of mixing more channels unless you need an effect for compositional/production usage. I think we are all examining the newer digital DAW techniques vs. our analogue mixing board productions. I don't disagree with you that your technique will work and work well but it does seem like it creates more channels/tracks than might be necessary with Sonar.
Yup. Definitely. I just figure for a beginner that's a pretty introductory way to explore "parallel" bus type effects while providing immediate desired results (because OP liked the idea you tossed out after trying it). From there the world of parallel bus effects can be explored more (like setting up a reverb/delay bus just for drums and other instruments which compliment the "overall" reverb bus). Also I wholly endorse the concept of creating "submix" busses to mold and group groups of similar tracks (like guitar/drums/etc) to EQ the overall sound of the group with EQ/compression/etc. You of course know all of this as a pro. I just like tossing out concepts for newcomers to check out and digest because I'm not so far removed from where the OP is at and such advice on this forum and elsewhere has gotten me where I am today (maybe mid to high quality "demo" level mixing skills... not total pro yet). Paying it forward and all that... albeit at an "intermediate" level at this point. I'll get smarterer. lol Cheers!
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BASSIC Productions
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 16:11:54
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☄ Helpfulby SoundRegion 2016/05/16 04:36:40
At Cactus Music... Listening to the tracks and also LOOKING at the wave forms I think your suffering from not so much the recording part, but mixing and mastering. Your songs are a little out of balance and the overall level is weak. LOOK at a commercial recording of that style of music and you will see the waveform is a solid brickwall. There's no room for dynamics in pop music. ( and even country now) Slam that puppy with your mastering tools and get your average RMS level around -12db. My guess is your 10db away from that goal. WOW, I'm sorry but I REALLY disagree with your post!!! The song SoundRegion posted isn't a dance tune so a brickwall compression will take away from the artistic intent. Good mastering still includes dynamics but it requires better waveform analysis to create the "rectangle" forms used in current music and the RMS levels need to achieve -6 to -1dBfs to get the loudness of modern pop releases. If you want to give advice to an upcoming artist, guessing is less helpful. Slamming the levels with some mastering tool to gain overall loudness will drastically change the frequency/mix levels and is not something any professional mixing or mastering engineer would EVER do, even in EDM styles!!!
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 16:12:02
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☄ Helpfulby BASSIC Productions 2016/05/15 16:37:48
Another approach to reverb is explained in Mike Seniors' book, "Mixing secrets for the small studio" Here, he advocates the use of up to 5 different reverbs for different purposes: Blend Size Tone Sustain Spread So far I've had great success just using the first 2, Blend & Size Each of these is put on its own bus and varying amounts are sent from individual tracks to one or both of them.
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BASSIC Productions
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/15 16:19:38
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At Beepster... I really wish I was better at this Sonar forum so I could "like" your recent post... consider it "LIKED!" I've been an audio teacher for awhile so I usually start with simple, one technique things so people can develop an ear for what they are doing. I thing the good plug-ins/meters are also easier to do if you focus on a single variable though, I'm sure you know, that can be difficult to isolate. Personally, I think it is great that so many of us are interested in helping SoundRegion and other people on this Sonar forum... I hope my comments are helpful to SoundRegion and less like a "I'm amazing"... I'm just another engineer with some experience and some thoughts.
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SoundRegion
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/16 04:17:11
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Beepster
What method did you use? Did you just toss a reverb on your master bus or did you use Sends and a Reverb bus?
I just put Sonitus reverb on the master bus. Did not know about the other way, but I'll check it out.
Steen ------------------ Sonar Professional - Akai EIE pro - AKG K240 - AKG C5 - Behringer XM-2000 - Hagström Ultra Swede - Evolution MK-149 - Musima Resonata - Komplete 10 - Mackie CR4 BT Soundcloud Bandcamp
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SoundRegion
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Re: It just does not sound proffesional.
2016/05/16 04:18:32
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BASSIC Productions At Beepster... I really wish I was better at this Sonar forum so I could "like" your recent post... consider it "LIKED!" I've been an audio teacher for awhile so I usually start with simple, one technique things so people can develop an ear for what they are doing. I thing the good plug-ins/meters are also easier to do if you focus on a single variable though, I'm sure you know, that can be difficult to isolate. Personally, I think it is great that so many of us are interested in helping SoundRegion and other people on this Sonar forum... I hope my comments are helpful to SoundRegion and less like a "I'm amazing"... I'm just another engineer with some experience and some thoughts.
There's a lot of good infomation in this tread now, not only for me, but I think it would be helpful for others as well.
Steen ------------------ Sonar Professional - Akai EIE pro - AKG K240 - AKG C5 - Behringer XM-2000 - Hagström Ultra Swede - Evolution MK-149 - Musima Resonata - Komplete 10 - Mackie CR4 BT Soundcloud Bandcamp
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