Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/21 17:29:46
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☄ Helpfulby FCCfirstclass 2015/10/22 10:39:57
The problem is very simple. It has nothing to do with the multiproc updates in JP though it might have appeared so from the symptoms.
I had made a fix for a reported bug in Ipswich for synth recording where some synth multi out channels wouldn't get recorded. That fix resolved the recording issue but it had a side effect of removing an optimization that which skipped unarmed synth channels from the record code. As a result there was some unnecessarily costly code that gets executed for each synth output.
The OP's project contains 1024 output ports since he has 32 instances of multiport Kontakt. Now multiply that by 3 for each channelized port (left right stereo) and you see how expensive this is :)
Anyway I have a fix for it. If anyone who has the issue wants to test it out send me a PM.
Most users will never run into this since they aren't running with thousands of ports in a project. BTW in the project the tracks are simple instrument tracks so the ports are not even being used. So why not use the simpler stereo version of Kontakt? It will be far cheaper to use and you will not see this load. That is a simple workaround.
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mdages
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/21 17:53:02
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I can confirm, that the record option "Allow arm changes...." causes the problem on my system.
As a film composer I often have a lot of Kontakt and similar samplers open.And often, I need multi-outs of them.
I hope the Cakewalk Devs and Support team, btw best one I've ever seen in DAW development the last years, find a solution to this. And I'm sure they will.
@Noel: I'm ready to test your fix and will provide you as much informations I can to support you and Cake-Team.
And also a big thank to the community for all your advises, tips and support.
best regards
Markus
music is just a sequence of sounds... Sonar Platinum -> R.I.P (Shame on Gibson) Cubase Pro 9.5 Windows 10 x64 German Core i7, 12GB RAM - 5 TB HDD/SSD Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 Studiologic Acuna 88 VSL VE-Pro with windows slave computers
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yevster
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/21 18:21:20
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I'm also happy to test the fix. I don't really use recording from synths, but I do use a lot of samples, typically with multi-out Kontakt, Sampletank, Independence, Play (granted, that one is single-out), multi-track drums, etc.
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John
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/21 18:22:57
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Good news Markus but I concur that a fix is needed.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/21 19:49:16
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To clarify most people will not encounter this issue. Its visible only if you have lots of instances of multi out synths in a project and if dynamic arm was on. The OP's project had 32 instances of Kontakt 32 channels each.
Otherwise JP has other optimizations for synths that should improve performance across the board. For example the zero detection now makes multi-out synth processing much more efficient since until the synth is playing the outputs are not mixed in.
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/21 19:51:42
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I think I can repro...
I've got a template with lots of soft synths, each synth has single midi track, however all the synth outputs are being routed to audio tracks. i.e. Addictive drums, Maschine, Kontakt, Geist. To add to the recipe I've got drum maps for all of these from several controllers.
Last tested a few days ago in Ipswitch Update 1 - working fine.
With JP soon as I start playing, sometimes before, it whites out, and after waiting for a while all I can do is close the program.
I did manage to get it respond better by deleting the drum maps, however I then ran into the single core issue afterwards...
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/21 19:52:21
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p.s. Reproduced with dynamic arm off and on! Noel I'll PM you and try it out if I may...
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Kylotan
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/22 06:18:08
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
So why not use the simpler stereo version of Kontakt? It will be far cheaper to use and you will not see this load. That is a simple workaround. From the Kontakt 5 manual, "The VST plug-in is special in that it comes in 3 different flavors with 8, 16 or 32 outputs." So the smallest would be the 8 output version, right? I don't think a purely stereo one exists.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/22 08:41:39
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You may be right. Still 8 vs 32 will make a huge difference. i.e the number of recordable channels changes in the OP's project changes from 32x32x3 to 8x8x3. (the 3 is because every stereo out can be recorded as either left, right or stereo) I've now optimized the code to handle this much better so its not a hit, but in general limiting the number of channels will reduce load.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2015/10/22 08:52:14
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bronsoncox
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/22 10:24:30
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brundlefly
Upsampling on playback? When you say "no antivirus" does that include Microsoft Security Essentials?
No upsampling on playback although I tried toggling. Negative on MSE, boot to flash on suspected virus activity. I would enjoy trying the patch although, as I mentioned earlier, I only have a single instance of AD2 running in my project and it's routed to a simple, stereo Instrument track.
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brundlefly
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/22 11:09:27
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It seems your issue is not at all related to what the OP was encountering, and you should probably take it to a new thread, and maybe submit a problem report with demo project to the Bakers. Have you tried rolling back to Ipswich as the OP did to verify it's not something coincidentally gone wrong with your system/configuration or that particular project?
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/22 12:09:00
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Agreed new thread please this is quite an important thread for some of us best stay on OP's topic. Many thanks.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/22 19:43:43
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bronsoncox
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/22 19:10:51
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☄ Helpfulby Doktor Avalanche 2015/10/22 19:45:15
I try not to troll (in fact I don't post much at all), but I'm honestly a bit irritated.
As for relevance to the OP, as I expressed in #11, my performance meter exhibited identical behavior upon playback post JP update. But please, pardon me for imagining that my issue might be related. @mdages sorry for apparently hijacking your thread.
As for posting a new thread, Dok would have simply referred me back to this thread had I posted my symptoms and repro steps and/or given me his usual call-center canned answers as he has a history of doing.
If this thread wasn't important to me, I wouldn't bother following or posting in it. Maybe scale back a bit on the passive-aggressive, Richard scale. You are the reason I don't participate in forums as a general rule.
@Noel, thanks for sending the patch and I will try it out.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/22 19:33:19
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bronsoncox
I try not to troll (in fact I don't post much at all), but I'm honestly a bit irritated.
As for relevance to the OP, as I expressed in #11, my performance meter exhibited identical behavior upon playback post JP update. But please, pardon me for imagining that my issue might be related. @mdages sorry for apparently hijacking your thread.
As for posting a new thread, Dok would have simply referred me back to this thread had I posted my symptoms and repro steps and/or given me his usual call-center canned answers as he has a history of doing.
If this thread wasn't important to me, I wouldn't bother following or posting in it. Maybe scale back a bit on the passive-aggressive, Richard scale. You are the reason I don't participate in forums as a general rule.
@Noel, thanks for sending the patch and I will try it out.
You have every reason to be irritated. For some reason I read the posts and didn't see you posted before. Stupidly I went on the last post. It could be related. I totally apologise for this, my bad. In my defence you neglect to mention that it wasn't just me who suggested this and I did ask your politely. Sorry again. (Edited for clarification).
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/22 22:08:26
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mdages
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 05:54:39
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@Noel
Thanks for your tip on using the Kontakt-8Out, this makes really a huge difference when using a lot of instances.
Never thought that unused outputs of a virtual instrument can have so much effect on performance.
I've replaced in my current working project all Kontakt instances (>40) to the 8Out version and the performance is much better.
Great.
-Markus
music is just a sequence of sounds... Sonar Platinum -> R.I.P (Shame on Gibson) Cubase Pro 9.5 Windows 10 x64 German Core i7, 12GB RAM - 5 TB HDD/SSD Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 Studiologic Acuna 88 VSL VE-Pro with windows slave computers
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 08:27:54
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Great, also let me know if the test build resolved the issue with the original project. It is fine here even with 1024 synth outs now. Despite the unintentional extra load in JP (which is now fixed), in general having fewer outs will greatly improve CPU load. Even from just the synth point of view it has to allocate more memory and handle filling all the output buffers each time even if they are unused. It will also make the number of ports in menus much shorter so less scrolling around. In JP we handle unused synth buffers much better since we detect zeros reducing CPU load for unnecessary mixing. Another fix in JP that was not listed, is that there is no limit on the number of ports. In prior versions of SONAR there was an internal hard limit of 64 outputs. It was a dumb restriction that shouldn't have been there.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2015/10/23 08:44:09
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 08:37:32
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Great, also let me know if the test build resolved the issue with the original project. It is fine here even with 1024 synth outs now.
Despite the unintentional extra load in JP (which is now fixed), in general having fewer outs will greatly improve CPU load. Even from just the synth point of view it has to allocate more memory and handle filling all the output buffers each time even if they are unused.
BTW in JP we handle unused synth buffers much better since we detect zeros reducing CPU load for unnecessary mixing.
I PM'd you Noel trying to get a build appreciate you are busy. I observed earlier that drum maps in existing templates white out and eventually crash Sonar, if I removed them very fast then I would experience the CPU load issue (no crash). So it could be an offshoot of the existing problem or some other issue. Have you tested drum maps created in a previous/current version of Sonar? Cheers...
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/23 08:48:48
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lingyai
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 09:46:50
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This thread exemplifies what a fantastic forum this can be, and fantastic crew the Bakers are
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brundlefly
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 11:30:21
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bronsoncox
But please, pardon me for imagining that my issue might be related.
Personally, I don't really have a problem with the way you got involved. It certainly sounded like the issue was the same on the surface, and the distraction was minimal. I only suggested you start a new thread when it seemed to become clear that too-many-ports-with dynamic-arming-enabled wasn't the cause in your case In any case, I'll assume your irritation is not primarily directed at me, and continue to try and help if I can, though I'm kind of out of suggestions until you can confirm whether a rollback to Ipswich fixes it or not. If it does, it might be worth trying Noel's "quick fix", though it seems unlikely. Can you share a copy of the project somewhere? Cheers, Dave
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 11:41:54
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brundlefly
Personally, I don't really have a problem with the way you got involved. It certainly sounded like the issue was the same on the surface, and the distraction was minimal. I only suggested you start a new thread when it seemed to become clear that too-many-ports-with dynamic-arming-enabled wasn't the cause in your case
In any case, I'll assume your irritation is not primarily directed at me, and continue to try and help if I can, though I'm kind of out of suggestions until you can confirm whether a rollback to Ipswich fixes it or not. If it does, it might be worth trying Noel's "quick fix", though it seems unlikely.
Can you share a copy of the project somewhere?
Cheers,
Dave
As stated earlier, I don't have a problem either. I just agreed with what you said (my bad, happy to take all the heat as I made a mistake). Thanks for clarification.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/10/23 11:56:39
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 19:31:25
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☄ Helpfulby dcumpian 2015/10/26 09:08:29
I only sent the test to a couple of people who had definite symptoms of the issue I suspected.
I know now that the OP's problem is directly related to this since it fixed it for him. We'll address this for the next update since its not a widespread issue and for now there is an easy way to avoid the extra load.
The good news is that even after that fix we found a way to optimize dynamic arm even more.
Now even in the worst case scenario with ALL synth ports active, the CPU load is minimal. We shaved off over 40% of the dynamic arm load by doing some optimization analysis and this second optimization will improve dynamic arm CPU performance across the board. We have a ton of new optimizations as well coming up in the next update as well so lots of improvements in this department.
Thanks everyone for pitching in to help figure it out.
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arlen2133
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 19:48:04
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Noel, That's ALWAYS good news to my ears. Sonar just keeps getting gooder and gooder.  And now... Back to the music... 
Arlen aka Mr Grant my music
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bitman
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 20:37:25
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I only sent the test to a couple of people who had definite symptoms of the issue I suspected.
I know now that the OP's problem is directly related to this since it fixed it for him. We'll address this for the next update since its not a widespread issue and for now there is an easy way to avoid the extra load.
The good news is that even after that fix we found a way to optimize dynamic arm even more.
Now even in the worst case scenario with ALL synth ports active, the CPU load is minimal. We shaved off over 40% of the dynamic arm load by doing some optimization analysis and this second optimization will improve dynamic arm CPU performance across the board. We have a ton of new optimizations as well coming up in the next update as well so lots of improvements in this department.
Thanks everyone for pitching in to help figure it out.
Pre-ducking.... Wouldn't dynamic arm be even less of a tax if it were per track? So the code would only have to be concerned with those tracks where dyn arm were potentially going to be used? Or perhaps it would make no difference. I'll see my way out.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/23 20:51:01
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Good news that Noel. Theoretically I guess there should be no issue with drum maps being MIDI and all that.
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stlstudio
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/28 01:59:36
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I experienced the 1st core redlining last night as well on W7 64 & had the unexpected audio dropout pop up come up several times since the Jamaica Update on a project not overloaded with synths or plugins as per what I can usually load up in average (for me) projects. It's the first core redlining thing that is new.
Record, Edit, Mix, Master, Deliver. Simplicity is Genius. The More Things Change, The More They Stay The Same.
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Fabio Rubato
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/10/28 02:33:42
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I only sent the test to a couple of people who had definite symptoms of the issue I suspected.
I know now that the OP's problem is directly related to this since it fixed it for him. We'll address this for the next update since its not a widespread issue and for now there is an easy way to avoid the extra load.
The good news is that even after that fix we found a way to optimize dynamic arm even more.
Now even in the worst case scenario with ALL synth ports active, the CPU load is minimal. We shaved off over 40% of the dynamic arm load by doing some optimization analysis and this second optimization will improve dynamic arm CPU performance across the board. We have a ton of new optimizations as well coming up in the next update as well so lots of improvements in this department.
Thanks everyone for pitching in to help figure it out.
...and while you're at it Noel, get the guys there to figure the scanning issue with Wave plug-ins stalling, and some soft synths like Zeta, suddenly developing a timing issue, where they start late and continue to play once the project has stopped.
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jfllafitte
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/11/01 12:44:19
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I have a major problem since I updated to Jamaica, SONAR does not open anymore...
No such a problem yesterday...
Any idea?
Thanks
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/11/01 16:43:33
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Please start your own thread listing your entire system spec, including your interface + settings and describe exactly what happens when (& how) you're trying to launch Sonar.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/11/02 02:11:59
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
We shaved off over 40% of the dynamic arm load by doing some optimization analysis and this second optimization will improve dynamic arm CPU performance across the board. We have a ton of new optimizations as well coming up in the next update as well so lots of improvements in this department.
love it. x-mas all year round these days :-) very much appreciated
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Doktor Avalanche
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- Total Posts : 4294
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Re: Jamaica Plain, heavy performance problems
2015/11/02 10:15:58
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It's been a week now, wondering if there will be a regression fix on the way this week?
Nb not demanding, just wondering...
Thanks..
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