Helpful ReplyLAYERS: When will Cakewalk devote time to Implementing Layers properly?

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pinguinotuerto
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2011/03/22 21:29:29 (permalink)

LAYERS: When will Cakewalk devote time to Implementing Layers properly?

Perhaps all the people at Cakewalk and the people they have "beta testing" work in very similar ways/have very similar setups?
 
One example of a no-brainer feature request has to do with Layers, Recording across multiple tracks and Audio Snap.
 
Why can we not select which layer we want to see (and work on) and hide the other layers from view? Why is it all or nothing? This tells me that whomever is working on/ testing the program is not taking into account people who like me do multi-track linked recordings and need to edit them as a "unit" (in this case drums).
 
If you want to edit drums across multiple tracks, it is almost impossible to work on this if you've done multiple linked takes. Let's say I've done three takes of drums across eight tracks. That totals 24 clips that I have to look at on my Track View at the same time!!!! If I were able to hide the takes that I'm not using at that particular moment, then that would reduce my clip count by 2/3 to eight, therefore, making it manageable to see them all on the screen. That way I can slip edit, split and do whatever else I need to do while making sure that all clips are responding accordingly.
 
The same applies to Audio snap. If I want to edit transients across multiple tracks (8 drums tracks), I want to be able to see all the transients that I'm moving. Having 24 clips on the screen makes this impossible.
 
I just do not understand for the life of me how certain "basic/common sense" things just elude the "people in charge".
 
Perhaps this is one of the reasons why people using ProTools don't take Sonar seriously.  This is such a basic editing feature that it just boggles the mind.  I guess most people using Sonar use loops? Am I one of the few using live multi-track drums?
 
Anyway, sorry, but I needed to vent my frustration.
 
P.S. I already filled out a feature request form.
post edited by pinguinotuerto - 2011/03/23 13:44:23

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#1
ba_midi
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 22:52:38 (permalink)
I think the short answer is:  CW have a market (I think it's bands and artists more than producers per se) they focus on as the center, so to speak - with other segments skewed along.

There are varying differences of opinion, but I think a lot of features they focus on tend to support my thinking.

To me there really is a certain backward stepping in X1 (ie, removing features in favor of a more simple approach for those newcomers to the product).

But these things have been discussed ad infinitum since the release of X1.  So I'm not sure what gain there is to be had.

It's my own view that CW has a plan they are going to stick to for the most part and without enough outcry for certain things, it will be mostly what they want/choose to do plus what they think they have to do for that market share.

Just my 2 cents of course.



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A1MixMan
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 22:53:57 (permalink)

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why people using ProTools don't take Sonar seriously.
 
Or perhaps they are just snobs.
 
You're post begs the question: Then why aren't you using Pro Tools?
 
Not trying to be a jerk. I hope that Cakewalk does fix these issuses for you (as well as the rest of us).
 
Hopefully someday, Sonar will do it all and rule the world!
I don't use loops, or record live drums. I do record drums from my Midi Kit though.
post edited by A1MixMan - 2011/03/22 22:55:06

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HumbleNoise
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:02:36 (permalink)
pinguin,

I wonder if you wouldn't get some great ideas for your dilemma if you phrased your post differently. Perhaps even ask a question like, "How do users of X1 edit multiple tracks/takes - need some ideas - Thanks"

Not saying your gripe isn't real or that your point is not well taken and I'm curious as well. There must be a hundred different ways Sonar users edit tracks in the way you have suggested.

Track Manager? Hide the track you don't want to see? A Screen Set with just drum tracks from take 2? Folders?

I'm not experienced enough to really give some good advice but there's LOTS of people here who are. Maybe X1 is indeed worthless for your needs but maybe not. You could ask and find out is all I'm sayin'.

Humbly Yours

Larry

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pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:04:12 (permalink)
A1MixMan



Perhaps this is one of the reasons why people using ProTools don't take Sonar seriously.
 
Or perhaps they are just snobs.
 
You're post begs the question: Then why aren't you using Pro Tools?
 
Not trying to be a jerk. I hope that Cakewalk does fix these issuses for you (as well as the rest of us).

I like Sonar. Have been using it since Sonar 1.  I don't think there's anything wrong with my raising this issue. You asking me why am I not using Pro Tools is a bit perplexing to me.  This is a feature that I think any DAW should have. As a paying costumer, I can express my frustration with the lack of a feature in the program that I have chosen to use.  I have no interest in using Pro Tools, I would like Sonar to allow me to hide or show layers that I choose in order to make my life easier. What's wrong with that?
 
 

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chuckebaby
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:05:36 (permalink)
A1MixMan



Perhaps this is one of the reasons why people using ProTools don't take Sonar seriously.
 
Or perhaps they are just snobs.
 
You're post begs the question: Then why aren't you using Pro Tools?
 
Not trying to be a jerk. I hope that Cakewalk does fix these issuses for you (as well as the rest of us).
 
Hopefully someday, Sonar will do it all and rule the world!
I don't use loops, or record live drums. I do record drums from my Midi Kit though.

good post sause..your right..where will we be if cake goes under?? i really like cakewalks software..and not to quote another user,but from another post someone said..what happens when the next generation peaks in here and reads about all the problems x1 is having..do you think there really going to be wanting to blow 4.bills on it?? no they wont.i think everyone here deserves the right to speak there mind about how x1 is working but dont be to quick to judge..ive seen more than one post of someone saying..this product sux !!!..then a few post later there saying "problem solved"..i didnt have my drivers updated(or something like this)..i know we all want to vent,but keep in mind we are the future of this company as well as the next generation to come.WE are SONAR..not that thing that comes in a box with  some discs in it.
so unless you dont want to be sitting around in a few years saying..i miss sonar..dont be to quick to judge..and if you do..try to keep it reasonable..dont think i havent had my problems either.i just happen to be sending most of my complaints to coustomer service.and posting them in here in the best way i can without being mis-understood by rage.

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#6
pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:08:41 (permalink)
HumbleNoise


pinguin,

I wonder if you wouldn't get some great ideas for your dilemma if you phrased your post differently. Perhaps even ask a question like, "How do users of X1 edit multiple tracks/takes - need some ideas - Thanks"

Not saying your gripe isn't real or that your point is not well taken and I'm curious as well. There must be a hundred different ways Sonar users edit tracks in the way you have suggested.

Track Manager? Hide the track you don't want to see? A Screen Set with just drum tracks from take 2? Folders?

I'm not experienced enough to really give some good advice but there's LOTS of people here who are. Maybe X1 is indeed worthless for your needs but maybe not. You could ask and find out is all I'm sayin'.

Thanks Larry. I appreciate the feedback. I just needed to vent, hence my not so passive-aggressive thread title!
 
I might take your advice, but I'm affraid not too many people using Sonar (including the Cakewalk folks) are recording multi-track drums. Which makes me wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree here!

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ShermanSmelville
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:10:19 (permalink)
I think Sonar needs much better audio editing tools. I recently demoed Samplitude and it was streets ahead in this regard. 

Even with soft synths I bounce to wave and edit with wavelab. It would be nice if Sonar could implement more "professional" audio editing tools.

This post was not actuated by rage.
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A1MixMan
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:13:06 (permalink)

What's wrong with that?
 
Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I do hope the add this in the future.
 
I personally think CW is listening to it's user base alot more since the X1 mess came out.
 
Hopefully once they get all this straightend out, they will have a chance to address these concerns.
 
Who knows they could be working on it for a future release.
post edited by A1MixMan - 2011/03/22 23:16:19

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pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:14:04 (permalink)
chuckebaby


A1MixMan



Perhaps this is one of the reasons why people using ProTools don't take Sonar seriously.
 
Or perhaps they are just snobs.
 
You're post begs the question: Then why aren't you using Pro Tools?
 
Not trying to be a jerk. I hope that Cakewalk does fix these issuses for you (as well as the rest of us).
 
Hopefully someday, Sonar will do it all and rule the world!
I don't use loops, or record live drums. I do record drums from my Midi Kit though.

good post sause..your right..where will we be if cake goes under?? i really like cakewalks software..and not to quote another user,but from another post someone said..what happens when the next generation peaks in here and reads about all the problems x1 is having..do you think there really going to be wanting to blow 4.bills on it?? no they wont.i think everyone here deserves the right to speak there mind about how x1 is working but dont be to quick to judge..ive seen more than one post of someone saying..this product sux !!!..then a few post later there saying "problem solved"..i didnt have my drivers updated(or something like this)..i know we all want to vent,but keep in mind we are the future of this company as well as the next generation to come.WE are SONAR..not that thing that comes in a box with  some discs in it.
so unless you dont want to be sitting around in a few years saying..i miss sonar..dont be to quick to judge..and if you do..try to keep it reasonable..dont think i havent had my problems either.i just happen to be sending most of my complaints to coustomer service.and posting them in here in the best way i can without being mis-understood by rage.

Chucke,
I think you either misunderstood my post or misinterpreted it.  I don't want Sonar or Cakewalk to go anywhere. I want them to succeed.  I'm expressing my opinion/frustration regarding and feature (or lack of). That's all.  You and I have had more than a few laughs around here together. You know I'm not an angry guy.  Look at my posts.

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A1MixMan
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:16:43 (permalink)
What about starting a new thread asking about who IS recording a live drumset and how and what they are doing? I would be interested in seeing the replies myself (even though I don't record live drums at the moment)
post edited by A1MixMan - 2011/03/22 23:17:51

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chuckebaby
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:18:13 (permalink)
i use record multi track drums all the time...i drag my all my kick drum tracks next to eachother so there all showing right next to eachother..i do the same with the snare..usualy 2 or three tracks with up to 3-5 layers..when i group all the tracks near eachother its alot easier to work on..do you do that?drag all your clips from say different sets??..put all your kicks together,allyour snares together..exc..then edit them like that??it makes it alot easier than scrolling down and working all over the place.

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#12
pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:18:28 (permalink)
ba_midi


I think the short answer is:  CW have a market (I think it's bands and artists more than producers ....

Ba,
You make my point. Bands usually have a drummer and therefore record live drums. Producers are the ones who might be more prone to replacing drums with loops or samples. This is what's so frustrating about this.  It seems like such a no-brainer that perhaps it's just too obvious.

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chuckebaby
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:19:45 (permalink)
A1MixMan


What about starting a new thread asking about who IS recording a live drumset and how and what they are doing? I would be interested in seeing the replies myself (even though I don't record live drums at the moment)


a-1..i swear you have sublimtile messages of burt and ernie on your avatar

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pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:21:39 (permalink)
chuckebaby


i use record multi track drums all the time...i drag my all my kick drum tracks next to eachother so there all showing right next to eachother..i do the same with the snare..usualy 2 or three tracks with up to 3-5 layers..when i group all the tracks near eachother its alot easier to work on..do you do that?drag all your clips from say different sets??..put all your kicks together,allyour snares together..exc..then edit them like that??it makes it alot easier than scrolling down and working all over the place.


Actually I want to do the opposite.  I want to see all the different drum tracks on the screen.  I want to maintain phase relationships between the tracks which is extremely important. If you edit a kick track, and don't edit you're overheads or any other track that might've picked up the kick, then you end up with phase problems or flamming.
post edited by pinguinotuerto - 2011/03/22 23:25:44

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chuckebaby
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:21:41 (permalink)
pinguinotuerto


chuckebaby


A1MixMan



Perhaps this is one of the reasons why people using ProTools don't take Sonar seriously.
 
Or perhaps they are just snobs.
 
You're post begs the question: Then why aren't you using Pro Tools?
 
Not trying to be a jerk. I hope that Cakewalk does fix these issuses for you (as well as the rest of us).
 
Hopefully someday, Sonar will do it all and rule the world!
I don't use loops, or record live drums. I do record drums from my Midi Kit though.

good post sause..your right..where will we be if cake goes under?? i really like cakewalks software..and not to quote another user,but from another post someone said..what happens when the next generation peaks in here and reads about all the problems x1 is having..do you think there really going to be wanting to blow 4.bills on it?? no they wont.i think everyone here deserves the right to speak there mind about how x1 is working but dont be to quick to judge..ive seen more than one post of someone saying..this product sux !!!..then a few post later there saying "problem solved"..i didnt have my drivers updated(or something like this)..i know we all want to vent,but keep in mind we are the future of this company as well as the next generation to come.WE are SONAR..not that thing that comes in a box with  some discs in it.
so unless you dont want to be sitting around in a few years saying..i miss sonar..dont be to quick to judge..and if you do..try to keep it reasonable..dont think i havent had my problems either.i just happen to be sending most of my complaints to coustomer service.and posting them in here in the best way i can without being mis-understood by rage.

Chucke,
I think you either misunderstood my post or misinterpreted it.  I don't want Sonar or Cakewalk to go anywhere. I want them to succeed.  I'm expressing my opinion/frustration regarding and feature (or lack of). That's all.  You and I have had more than a few laughs around here together. You know I'm not an angry guy.  Look at my posts.

your right ping..im sorry if it came out like that man..i feel for you..i wasnt reffering to you as much in that post as i was alot of others..i guess i got a little carried away myself..lets see if we can get a quick work around for you going..

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pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:23:04 (permalink)
chuckebaby


A1MixMan


What about starting a new thread asking about who IS recording a live drumset and how and what they are doing? I would be interested in seeing the replies myself (even though I don't record live drums at the moment)


a-1..i swear you have sublimtile messages of burt and ernie on your avatar


He does. It messed with my head the first time I saw it!!!!!! Lol!!!!!

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chuckebaby
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:27:24 (permalink)
pinguinotuerto


chuckebaby


i use record multi track drums all the time...i drag my all my kick drum tracks next to eachother so there all showing right next to eachother..i do the same with the snare..usualy 2 or three tracks with up to 3-5 layers..when i group all the tracks near eachother its alot easier to work on..do you do that?drag all your clips from say different sets??..put all your kicks together,allyour snares together..exc..then edit them like that??it makes it alot easier than scrolling down and working all over the place.


Actually I want to do the opposite.  I want to see all the different drum tracks on the screen.  I want to maintain phase relationships between the tracks wich is extremely important. If you edit a kick track, and don't edit you're overheads or any other track that might've picked up the kick, then you end up with phase problems or flamming.


i understand now..does it help to drad tracks by instruments and bring them close together at all?? it might at least bring seperate instruments together..for example i do this usually..i set up sometimes three diferent kits..all multi outs..i then take each drum set and group all those instruments together..all my kicks..all my snars..all my overheads..by draging the track in the track view so there all next to eachther.then i can solo one at a time to find the best phase.exc.(sorry if im repeating myself) then i open up the layers..maybe this is no help..like i said sorry if i just posted the same thing again

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#18
chuckebaby
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:29:54 (permalink)
i guess i can see how you can be bumbed out..because there is no way to achieve this..just try and find some shortcuts and hopefully on a later release or patch they work in something..sorry to hear man

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HumbleNoise
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:31:02 (permalink)
ping, here's some amateur advice. If you recorded your takes into multiple tracks instead of layers you could use the track manager 'H' and hide whatever tracks you didn't want to see. You could even set up a couple of Screen Sets with the tracks you wanted on each Screen Set. Name the Screen Sets Kick Snare etc? Just throwing something out there.

Humbly Yours

Larry

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panup
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:36:29 (permalink)
I record and edit live multi-tracked drums. My typical setup for drums is:

1 Kick in
2 Kick out
3 Snare top
4 Snare bottom
5-6 Overheads
7 HiHat
8 (Crash)Ride (optional)
9-10 Room (stereo)
11 Hi Tom
12 Mid Tom
13 Floor Tom
14 Floor Tom 2 (optional)
15-16 Far Ambience HiFi (Mid/Side)
17 Far Ambience LoFi
18 Bonham Mic (optional)

Before recording: [x] Group clips across tracks in Preferences/Record.

Recording: I put take in a new Track Folder immediately after take and archive it (whole folder).  After recording there may be 1-8 drum takes and up to audio 100 tracks (counting demo bass, gtr and vox, too).  I don't keep takes in track layers because in that case SONAR needs to read all takes from disk all the time.

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pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:38:19 (permalink)
HumbleNoise


ping, here's some amateur advice. If you recorded your takes into multiple tracks instead of layers you could use the track manager 'H' and hide whatever tracks you didn't want to see. You could even set up a couple of Screen Sets with the tracks you wanted on each Screen Set. Name the Screen Sets Kick Snare etc? Just throwing something out there.

I appreciate the help.  The problem is that the whole point of having layers is that you save processing resources and can have the same settings on all clips for that layer. For example, if I EQ the kick, add an effect, change the volume, etc., then all clips in that layer will still sound the same.  Also if I want to comp the layers to build the "perfect track" then those edits translate to the linked clips on other tracks.
 
Having to move the clips out of the layers into their own tracks defeats the purpose of having layers in the first place.  It would take me a few paragraphs to explain why it would be pointless to record on separate tracks or move the clips out of their layers.
 


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#22
ba_midi
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:38:35 (permalink)
pinguinotuerto


ba_midi


I think the short answer is:  CW have a market (I think it's bands and artists more than producers ....

Ba,
You make my point. Bands usually have a drummer and therefore record live drums. Producers are the ones who might be more prone to replacing drums with loops or samples. This is what's so frustrating about this.  It seems like such a no-brainer that perhaps it's just too obvious.


I suspect bands aren't doing the detailed / super creative / wild editing that producers would.

And when I say producers, I don't necessarily mean band/artist producers alone.   Dance music and other electronic genres use a great deal of "tricks", if you will.   Their needs are different than the "did we get that take?" crowd.

But as for multi-track editing --- there ARE some techniques availabe now in Sonar, depending on how you work.   For example:   "Group Edit" comes to mind;  or using track folders to create a 'collective' group (mostly good for alignment editing), and more.

Whether Sonar has the depth and breadth of features some other DAWs have in this area is debatable of course.   But there are some techniques available at least.

In the reference manual/guide I believe there is a section on multi-track editing that might pay to review.



Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

http://www.ba-midi.com/music/files
Music gives me life, so I give life Music.
Thanks for listening - Let's Dance to the rhythm of life! :)
#23
HumbleNoise
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:42:37 (permalink)
Could You Use the Clip Groups like panup suggested? Looks pretty interesting and seems to be designed for what you're talking about. Maybe it's time for that new thread?

From panup - "Before recording: [x] Group clips across tracks in Preferences/Record."

From the help file.

Clip selection groups
SONAR lets you treat multiple clips as a single unit. By grouping clips, you can select and edit an entire group of clips by simply selecting or editing any group member. A group can contain both audio and MIDI clips from a single track or from multiple tracks.
Clip groups are very useful, for example, when editing multitrack drums and you want to synchronize edits on all clips from the same recording take.
You can instruct SONAR to automatically group clips after recording multiple tracks simultaneously, or you can add and remove clips from a group after the clips have been recorded.
Grouped clips are indicated by a group number before the clip name.
Figure 82. Grouped clips
A. The group number is displayed next to the clip name
To group clips during multitrack recording
1.
Go to Edit > Preferences > Project - Record, or right-click the Record button to access recording settings.

2.
Under Clip Groups, select the Group Clips Across Tracks check box.

After recording is complete, all new clips are grouped together. When loop recording, each pass of the loop gets placed in its own group.
Two discrete steps are placed in the Undo history. The first step is the actual recording and the second step is for Create Clip Group. This allows you to undo the clip group, if desired, without losing the recording.
The following example shows two takes of a five track loop recording. The first clip group is selected.
 
 
Note: The Group Clips Across Tracks setting is stored with each project.
To create a clip selection group
1.
Select all the clips you want to group together.

2.
Right-click any selected clip and choose Create selection group from selected clips from the pop-up menu.

A new selection group is created and the group number is displayed next to each clip name.
 
Note: A clip may only belong to one selection group at a time. If any of the selected clips already belong to another clip group, they will be removed from the other group and placed in the new group.
To add clips to an existing selection group
1.
Click on any clip in the existing group.

All clips in the group are selected.
2.
Hold down the CTRL key and click the clips that you want to add to the group.

3.
Right-click any selected clip and choose Create selection group from selected clips from the pop-up menu.

All selected clips are placed in a new selection group.
 
Note: A clip may only belong to one selection group at a time. If any of the selected clips already belong to another clip group, they will be removed from the other group and placed in the new group.
To remove clips from a selection group
1.
Select the clips you want to remove from the group.

 
Tip: To select only a single clip in a group, hold down the SHIFT key and click the clip that you wish to remove from the group.
2.
Right-click any selected clip and choose Remove selected clips from selection groups from the pop-up menu.

The selected clips are no longer grouped.
To remove all clip groups
1.
Do one of the following:


On the Edit menu, point to Select and choose All.


Press CTRL+A.

All clips are selected.
2.
Right-click any selected clip and choose Remove selected clips from selection groups from the pop-up menu.

The selected clips are no longer grouped.
Using editing tools on grouped clips
The Select, Mute and Split tools behave as follows when editing grouped clips:

Select tool :


Clicking a clip in a group will also select all other clips in the same group.


Lasso-selecting will select clips that are touched by the lasso as well as other clips in the same group that intersect the lasso time range.


Split tool :


Clicking an unselected clip will split that clip and all other clips in the same group that intersect the split time.


If a previous selection exists, clicking will split only the clips in the selection.


Selecting a range will split all clips in the group that intersect that range.


Mute tool . The Mute tool has several modes of operation. The corresponding mode is indicated in square brackets.


[Mute Entire Clips mode] Clicking an unselected clip will mute that clip and all other clips in the same group.


[Mute Entire Clips mode] If a previous selection exists, clicking will mute only the clips in the selection.


[Mute Entire Clips mode] Lasso-selecting will mute clips that are touched by the lasso as well as other clips in the same group that intersect the lasso time range.


[Mute Time Ranges mode] Selecting a range will mute all clips in the group that intersect that time range.

 
Note: Muting a time range is limited to one track or layer at a time.

[Isolate mode] Clicking an unselected clip will isolate that clip and all other clips in the same group.


[Isolate mode] Isolating a range will isolate all clips in the group that intersect that time range.

 
Caution: Editing operations that are performed on any group member also affect any hidden clips that belong to the same group. Be careful that you don’t unintentionally modify or delete hidden clips.
Splitting grouped clips
SONAR can automatically create a new clip group when splitting clips in an existing clip group. To specify the split behavior, follow these steps:
1.
Go to Edit > Preferences > Customization - Editing.

2.
Under Clips, select the When splitting clips in groups, create new groups check box.

For more information about splitting clips, see Splitting and combining clips.
Copying and pasting grouped clips
When you copy and paste clips that belong to a clip group, you can specify if the pasted clips should be placed in a new clip group or continue to be grouped with the original clip group. By default, a new clip group is created. You can change the behavior by adding the following line to the [WinCake] section of the Cakewalk.ini file:
[WinCake]
CreateNewGroupsOnPaste=1
 
The values are as follows:
0 = The pasted clips will belong to the same clip group as the clips that were copied.
1 = A new clip group is created for the pasted clips. This is the default behavior.
To view and edit the Cakewalk.ini file, go to Edit > Preferences > File - Initialization File.
For more information about the Cakewalk.ini file, see Initialization files.

post edited by HumbleNoise - 2011/03/22 23:46:47

Humbly Yours

Larry

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#24
ba_midi
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:44:34 (permalink)
Larry - thanks for posting that.  THAT is what I was referring to as was Panup (I didn't see his msg until after I posted mine -- sorry Panup).



Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

http://www.ba-midi.com/music/files
Music gives me life, so I give life Music.
Thanks for listening - Let's Dance to the rhythm of life! :)
#25
pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:45:46 (permalink)
ba_midi


pinguinotuerto


ba_midi


I think the short answer is:  CW have a market (I think it's bands and artists more than producers ....

Ba,
You make my point. Bands usually have a drummer and therefore record live drums. Producers are the ones who might be more prone to replacing drums with loops or samples. This is what's so frustrating about this.  It seems like such a no-brainer that perhaps it's just too obvious.


I suspect bands aren't doing the detailed / super creative / wild editing that producers would.

And when I say producers, I don't necessarily mean band/artist producers alone.   Dance music and other electronic genres use a great deal of "tricks", if you will.   Their needs are different than the "did we get that take?" crowd.

But as for multi-track editing --- there ARE some techniques availabe now in Sonar, depending on how you work.   For example:   "Group Edit" comes to mind;  or using track folders to create a 'collective' group (mostly good for alignment editing), and more.

Whether Sonar has the depth and breadth of features some other DAWs have in this area is debatable of course.   But there are some techniques available at least.

In the reference manual/guide I believe there is a section on multi-track editing that might pay to review.

Thanks Ba, but I don't need to review the manual because Multi-track editing is not the problem. That works fine.  I do all the things you described (my clips are linked and grouped and everything is in a folder). The problem is Layer management.  If I could hide the layers I'm not using at the moment so that only the one I want to work with would show, then my eight tracks would fit on my screen and I would be happy. 
 
 Thanks for your help though, it's very nice when people lend a helping hand, and I mean this for the rest of the gang too.

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#26
pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:48:32 (permalink)
HumbleNoise


Could You Use the Clip Groups like panup suggested? Looks pretty interesting and seems to be designed for what you're talking about. Maybe it's time for that new thread?

From panup - "Before recording: [x] Group clips across tracks in Preferences/Record."

From the help file.

Clip selection groups
SONAR lets you treat multiple clips as a single unit. By grouping clips, you can select and edit an entire group of clips by simply selecting or editing any group member. A group can contain both audio and MIDI clips from a single track or from multiple tracks.
Clip groups are very useful, for example, when editing multitrack drums and you want to synchronize edits on all clips from the same recording take.
You can instruct SONAR to automatically group clips after recording multiple tracks simultaneously, or you can add and remove clips from a group after the clips have been recorded.
Grouped clips are indicated by a group number before the clip name.
Figure 82. Grouped clips
A. The group number is displayed next to the clip name
To group clips during multitrack recording
1.
Go to Edit > Preferences > Project - Record, or right-click the Record button to access recording settings.

2.
Under Clip Groups, select the Group Clips Across Tracks check box.

After recording is complete, all new clips are grouped together. When loop recording, each pass of the loop gets placed in its own group.
Two discrete steps are placed in the Undo history. The first step is the actual recording and the second step is for Create Clip Group. This allows you to undo the clip group, if desired, without losing the recording.
The following example shows two takes of a five track loop recording. The first clip group is selected.

 
Note: The Group Clips Across Tracks setting is stored with each project.
To create a clip selection group
1.
Select all the clips you want to group together.

2.
Right-click any selected clip and choose Create selection group from selected clips from the pop-up menu.

A new selection group is created and the group number is displayed next to each clip name.
 
Note: A clip may only belong to one selection group at a time. If any of the selected clips already belong to another clip group, they will be removed from the other group and placed in the new group.
To add clips to an existing selection group
1.
Click on any clip in the existing group.

All clips in the group are selected.
2.
Hold down the CTRL key and click the clips that you want to add to the group.

3.
Right-click any selected clip and choose Create selection group from selected clips from the pop-up menu.

All selected clips are placed in a new selection group.
 
Note: A clip may only belong to one selection group at a time. If any of the selected clips already belong to another clip group, they will be removed from the other group and placed in the new group.
To remove clips from a selection group
1.
Select the clips you want to remove from the group.

 
Tip: To select only a single clip in a group, hold down the SHIFT key and click the clip that you wish to remove from the group.
2.
Right-click any selected clip and choose Remove selected clips from selection groups from the pop-up menu.

The selected clips are no longer grouped.
To remove all clip groups
1.
Do one of the following:


On the Edit menu, point to Select and choose All.


Press CTRL+A.

All clips are selected.
2.
Right-click any selected clip and choose Remove selected clips from selection groups from the pop-up menu.

The selected clips are no longer grouped.
Using editing tools on grouped clips
The Select, Mute and Split tools behave as follows when editing grouped clips:

Select tool :


Clicking a clip in a group will also select all other clips in the same group.


Lasso-selecting will select clips that are touched by the lasso as well as other clips in the same group that intersect the lasso time range.


Split tool :


Clicking an unselected clip will split that clip and all other clips in the same group that intersect the split time.


If a previous selection exists, clicking will split only the clips in the selection.


Selecting a range will split all clips in the group that intersect that range.


Mute tool . The Mute tool has several modes of operation. The corresponding mode is indicated in square brackets.


[Mute Entire Clips mode] Clicking an unselected clip will mute that clip and all other clips in the same group.


[Mute Entire Clips mode] If a previous selection exists, clicking will mute only the clips in the selection.


[Mute Entire Clips mode] Lasso-selecting will mute clips that are touched by the lasso as well as other clips in the same group that intersect the lasso time range.


[Mute Time Ranges mode] Selecting a range will mute all clips in the group that intersect that time range.

 
Note: Muting a time range is limited to one track or layer at a time.

[Isolate mode] Clicking an unselected clip will isolate that clip and all other clips in the same group.


[Isolate mode] Isolating a range will isolate all clips in the group that intersect that time range.


Caution: Editing operations that are performed on any group member also affect any hidden clips that belong to the same group. Be careful that you don’t unintentionally modify or delete hidden clips.
Splitting grouped clips
SONAR can automatically create a new clip group when splitting clips in an existing clip group. To specify the split behavior, follow these steps:
1.
Go to Edit > Preferences > Customization - Editing.

2.
Under Clips, select the When splitting clips in groups, create new groups check box.

For more information about splitting clips, see Splitting and combining clips.
Copying and pasting grouped clips
When you copy and paste clips that belong to a clip group, you can specify if the pasted clips should be placed in a new clip group or continue to be grouped with the original clip group. By default, a new clip group is created. You can change the behavior by adding the following line to the [WinCake] section of the Cakewalk.ini file:
[WinCake]
CreateNewGroupsOnPaste=1

The values are as follows:
0 = The pasted clips will belong to the same clip group as the clips that were copied.
1 = A new clip group is created for the pasted clips. This is the default behavior.
To view and edit the Cakewalk.ini file, go to Edit > Preferences > File - Initialization File.
For more information about the Cakewalk.ini file, see Initialization files.


Yes Larry, thanks.  I do all of this.  The problem is really a VISUAL one.  When you have 8 tracks with 3 layers in each you end up with 24 tracks vertically, which makes it impossible to fit them on your screen while still being able to see the contents of the clips.

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#27
HumbleNoise
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:50:41 (permalink)
I see what you're talking about now ping. Hiding the Layers or clips (whatever) is the challenge. There's another good thread title, "How Do I hide Layers Within Multiple Takes blah blah"

I'm just sayin the answer is out there somewhere, it's the question that's the hard part.

Humbly Yours

Larry

Sonar X2 x64
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#28
pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:54:20 (permalink)
Hey gang,

Perhaps I am being misunderstood.  there's no problem with Sonar's editing features. I love them. I record all my takes as linked clips so that when I edit one clip all clips get edited.  That works like a charm.

The problem is being able to see all my drum clips vertically on the screen for editing purposes.  If I were able to hide layers I'm not using and only show the layer of my choice, then I would only see 8 clips vertically and therefore would be able to make my edits via editing tools or audio snap while monitoring all my clips to ensure that the edits are being successful. The proble is LAYER MANAGEMENT, or the lack thereof.


HP DV7-3085 Laptop (Intel Core i7 720 1.6 GHZ, 6 GB RAM, 1333 MHZ FSB, 2 500GB 7200 RPM Internal HDs, 17" screen), HP 2009m Monitor, 2TB Ext Drive
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#29
pinguinotuerto
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Re:I think the Cakewalk developers live in a bubble! 2011/03/22 23:56:46 (permalink)
HumbleNoise


I see what you're talking about now ping. Hiding the Layers or clips (whatever) is the challenge. There's another good thread title, "How Do I hide Layers Within Multiple Takes blah blah"

I'm just sayin the answer is out there somewhere, it's the question that's the hard part.


Larry, I'm affraid the answer is not out there. Sonar doesn't do this currently.  Garrigus and I discussed this on another thread.  My post was not a cry for help, it was simply a cry.

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#30
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