Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try

Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
Author
Tripod
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 101
  • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
  • Status: offline
2012/10/08 10:34:13 (permalink)

Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try

I realize this has been discussed before but i can't find a solution to my latency problem. I'm using a Roland TD9 together with Sonar Producer and no matter what i try i keep getting a delay when playing. It isn't much but enough to make playing along with the guitars or bass or a click near impossible. Playing live with other people is not possible either because the drum is always a fraction of a second behind. Is there anything i can do about this? It's driving me nuts! The only way to record songs is to play the drum track first and then fill in the rest. This can't be the only option right? Every other instrument is fine. The guitars, mic, keyboard...just the midi drums have a delay when playing. I'm using a SSD ddrive on a fast enough computer with plenty of ram. For input i use a Roland Quad Capture. I checked every possible setting, i spent days trying different options but nothing seems to be able to fix this. I can't believe it's non fixable. That means that every single person out there with electronic drums has the same problem. That's hard to believe. Thanks for your time.
#1

33 Replies Related Threads

    Middleman
    Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4397
    • Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
    • Location: Orange County, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 11:00:28 (permalink)
    Ways to reduce latench

    - try another ADDA device
    - upgrade your processor speed
    - freeze all your other tracks to eliminate other VSTs delay latency then try your midi drum tracking.
    - alternatively you can do a quick mix of existing tracks export that to a new session then try tracking your drums. This should get your latency down to an acceptable level. Then import the resulting midi track back into your original project.

    Any midi tracks should be tracked early in the recording process before the project gets loaded up with VSTs and other processing which creates significant latency in the project. When you come along later to input late stage midi tracks, your just asking for frustration.


    Gear: A bunch of stuff.
    #2
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 11:26:44 (permalink)
      1:Not sure what adda means. 2:I'm using a fast i7 processor. So this can't be the problem. 3:I can't accept this as a solution 4:Neither can i accept this as a solution. These last 2 options shouldn't be needed to get this working properly. There has to be something else i missed. I want to get to the source of the problem and not change the way the software works and make everything overcomplicated. Thanks for your help though.
    post edited by Tripod - 2012/10/08 11:29:14
    #3
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 11:28:13 (permalink)
    Btw i don't understand the forum software. I click "qoute message" but it never quotes. Also it doesn't add the breaks i added in my post, putting all sentences behind each other. Sorry about this.
    #4
    Kalle Rantaaho
    Max Output Level: -5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 7005
    • Joined: 2006/01/09 13:07:59
    • Location: Finland
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 11:37:24 (permalink)
    The forum software doesn't like post 3.xx Firefox.

    You haven't told us some basics:

    What drivers are you using, and what have you set your latency at?

    You should be using the latest ASIO dfrivers for your Quad Capture, and make sure the intergrated soundchip is not selected in any box in the Preferences dialogue.
    You say you use the Quad for input. Make sure you use it for output too.

    SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre  -  Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc.
    The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
    #5
    Middleman
    Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4397
    • Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
    • Location: Orange County, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 11:56:40 (permalink)
    The only way you can baseline this is to start another project with just a single instance of your drum software and one midi track. Are you still getting unacceptable delay? If so then it's your audio device (Analog to Digital/Digital to Audio device i.e. ADDA) drivers or your driver settings in Sonar. Try a lower buffer setting. If you still can't get it to perform acceptably then you need to look to another company that has better performance drivers (although I doubt this is the issue because Roland usually does a good job with this).

    Always track your midi early in the project or use the global bypass for plugins if you need to track late in the game.

    Gear: A bunch of stuff.
    #6
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 12:44:17 (permalink)
    Hi, i'm not near my studio computer so i don't have the details. I will post the info tomorrow. Thanks a lot!
    #7
    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9871
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 13:08:43 (permalink)
    Hi Tri,


    What you're looking to accomplish is *the* most timing sensitive objective.  
    It can certainly be done, but you need to get round-trip latency down as low as possible.
    That means using an audio interface that goes down to a 32 or 48-sample ASIO buffer size... and one that uses a small hidden safety-buffer.


    The OctoCapture is a good audio interface.  It yields round-trip latency of 7.4ms at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k.  That's not bad... but it's not low enough for your purpose.
    The only way to mitigate the 7.4ms RTL is to increase the sample-rate at which you're working.
    Double the sample rate... and you cut the latency of the ASIO input/output buffers in half (albeit at the expense of higher CPU use).

    If doubling the sample-rate isn't possible (for performance reasons), then the only solution is to use an audio interface that yields lower round-trip latency.  RME (although not cheap) is particularly good.
    ie:  The RME USB units yield 4.9ms round-trip latency at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k
    Increase the sample-rate to 96k and the round-trip latency drops to 2.2ms (96-sample ASIO buffer size/96k).  

    For your purposes, I'd want round-trip latency to be in the 3ms range.
    I know some folks doubt this, but as someone who's worked a lot with triggering of drum samples, there's a huge difference in feel between triggering with 3ms vs. 6+ms of latency.  It's night vs. day when it comes to feel...






    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #8
    Middleman
    Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4397
    • Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
    • Location: Orange County, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 13:16:42 (permalink)
    Good data on the Octo capture Jim. That would definitely be an issue. I am running .7ms here as a frame of reference at 96k or 2.7ms at 48k which goes back to my first comment...you may want to look at another capture device.
    post edited by Middleman - 2012/10/08 13:19:00

    Gear: A bunch of stuff.
    #9
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 13:50:38 (permalink)
    Does the Quad Capture not support zero-latency monitoring? If you're monitoring through the computer, then yeh, you're going to have latency issues. I'm not a drummer, but I know that playing piano that way is nearly impossible and I imagine drums are 10x worse. But I have zero issues with latency - even on an old machine not nearly as fast as yours - because I don't monitor through the computer.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #10
    Beagle
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 50621
    • Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
    • Location: Fort Worth, TX
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 13:56:31 (permalink)
    bitflipper


    Does the Quad Capture not support zero-latency monitoring? If you're monitoring through the computer, then yeh, you're going to have latency issues. I'm not a drummer, but I know that playing piano that way is nearly impossible and I imagine drums are 10x worse. But I have zero issues with latency - even on an old machine not nearly as fast as yours - because I don't monitor through the computer.

    +1!!!
     
    I monitor my keyboard playing outside the computer as well.  It makes it a lot easier.

    http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
    i7, 16G DDR3, Win10x64, MOTU Ultralite Hybrid MK3
    Yamaha MOXF6, Hammond XK3c, other stuff.
    #11
    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9871
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 14:45:56 (permalink)
    Does the Quad Capture not support zero-latency monitoring? If you're monitoring through the computer, then yeh, you're going to have latency issues. I'm not a drummer, but I know that playing piano that way is nearly impossible and I imagine drums are 10x worse. But I have zero issues with latency - even on an old machine not nearly as fast as yours - because I don't monitor through the computer.



    Hi Bit,


    I'm assuming the OP is talking about triggering soft-sample libraries via the V-drum kit.
    If he's just playing/recording the V-drums, yeah... hardware based monitoring will eliminate the latency.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #12
    Middleman
    Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4397
    • Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
    • Location: Orange County, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 14:53:10 (permalink)
    I took  his original statement to mean he is adding drums after the main tracks are already in place and he is trying to monitor a click track off the computer which is aligned to those tracks.

    Gear: A bunch of stuff.
    #13
    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9871
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/08 14:55:44 (permalink)
    I took his original statement to mean he is adding drums after the main tracks are already in place and he is trying to monitor a click track off the computer which is aligned to those tracks.

     
    Reading it again... you're probably right.  

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #14
    Goddard
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 338
    • Joined: 2012/07/21 11:39:11
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/09 01:09:57 (permalink)
    Tripod, you are trying to record the audio from your TD9, while listening to (monitoring) playback from Sonar? Are you monitoring through your audio interface? Do you have input monitoring set/selected in your audio interface?

    In Sonar, check "Input Echo" (or is it "Input Monitor"?) setting (button) on the track(s) you are recording your TD9 to, and also "live input PDC" setting on the recording track(s). See the reference manual about those settings (sorry, not at my DAW now to confirm correct terms). But it is a very simple matter.

    If the above does not help, you could post your question in the Sonar Producer forum section, as I think this is not actually a hardware latency issue but only a Sonar using/setting problem, and you could get more info there about using Sonar.
    #15
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/09 06:05:24 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry, thank you for that post. I will later today re-read that and try it out and report back here.
    #16
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/09 06:07:07 (permalink)
    " Tripod, you are trying to record the audio from your TD9, while listening to (monitoring) playback from Sonar? " Yes, that's what i am doing (i think) Is that wrong? I will check out the input echo thing. Thank you.
    post edited by Tripod - 2012/10/09 06:25:28
    #17
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/09 06:09:11 (permalink)
    Bitflipper, what other options are there than monitoring through the computer? I'm not sure i understand this. I use programs like EZdrummer so the TD9 goes through the computer to pick up those sounds. If i play it through an external speaker i ofcourse have no latency but i then obviously can not record or use any kind of drum software. So that's not an option.
    #18
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/09 20:52:28 (permalink)
    You just said you are recording the TD9 audio, then you will monitor at the interface and set the monitoring to "input" or source or what every term it uses. If your system has latency you do not want to listen to the instruments you are recording after it has passed through the computer and back to the interface,,,, you want to monitor it "before" it goes in. Most folks record the MIDI output and then you can edit and play around with way more sound.You can still monitor the audio while tracking.

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #19
    Middleman
    Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4397
    • Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
    • Location: Orange County, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/09 21:35:11 (permalink)
    This:
    Tripod, you are trying to record the audio from your TD9, while listening to (monitoring) playback from Sonar? " Yes, that's what i am doing (i think) Is that wrong? I will check out the input echo thing.
     
    Is different than this:
    I use programs like EZdrummer so the TD9 goes through the computer to pick up those sounds.
     
    The first one says you want to record the sounds of the TD9 into the computer (maybe along with the midi data).
    The second one says you don't want the TD9 sounds, just the midi data which will trigger EZ drummer.

    In the first scenario, you can monitor with headphones at the TD9, capture the midi data at the same time, then use that midi data to trigger EZ. Time shift as needed.

    In the second scenario there will be perceived delay from hitting the drums because you are monitoring the sound off EZ after the midi data has been captured and then after it triggers EZ. This is not a great place to monitor from unless you have very fast hardware and exceptional drivers. Alternatively as pointed out above, you can just record at a faster rate to lower your latency.
     
    Here is what I use to do before I upgraded my computer. I monitored off the drum module as I am listening to the computer tracks. These are both routed into a headphone amp so I can hear both signals. Then I just record the midi data into the computer during the process. Later I come back and adjust the midi track to time align accurately with the previously recorded guitars and bass.
     
    Currently I have low enough latency that I can monitor off the computer but generally, I track the drums early in the process with a guide bass or guitar or click. Then I time come back and make sure the drums are aligned to the click if there is a lag, and then I track the rest of the music.
    There may be a better way, but I have not found it yet.
     
    post edited by Middleman - 2012/10/09 21:45:12

    Gear: A bunch of stuff.
    #20
    bitflipper
    01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
    • Total Posts : 26036
    • Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
    • Location: Everett, WA USA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/09 23:45:57 (permalink)
    Bitflipper, what other options are there than monitoring through the computer? I'm not sure i understand this. I use programs like EZdrummer so the TD9 goes through the computer to pick up those sounds. If i play it through an external speaker i ofcourse have no latency but i then obviously can not record or use any kind of drum software. So that's not an option.

    Ah, now I understand your predicament. And I have a solution for you.


    The TD9 does makes sound, right? Probably not as good as the samples you have in your computer, though, so you'd rather use EZDrummer's sounds. The solution is to monitor your TD9's internal sounds while playing, but record your performance as MIDI rather than audio. Then later redirect the recorded MIDI track to EZDrummer. Latency will no longer be an issue.


    I do this for piano. I have a hardware synthesizer that does a passable piano, but I have better piano libraries on disk. So when I need to record a piano part, I'm listening to the just-OK piano patch in my Yamaha synth while recording MIDI. Once the MIDI part has been recorded, I reroute it to Kontakt and utilize a different piano library - and latency is not a concern.


    All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

    My Stuff
    #21
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/10 11:38:17 (permalink)
    So hopefully you now see what it was you were doing wrong as all the last posts are directing you in so many words to the same place.

    Your monitoring set up is flexible so it's easy to get this wrong.

    Middle man got me thinking that what I would do is use the headphone system on the brain and route the computer playback from my audio interface into the AUX in jacks. They put them there so you could play along with a CD or MP3 player.

    Then as we are all saying, record the MIDI output and carry on.
    I would quantize the new MIDI track to the appropriate resolution to line it up. That's what I do with drums input from my keyboard. Same thing.

    If you actually like the sound of the TD9 brain,or even just one of the sounds,  then I would still record with MIDI and run the TD9 as a outboard synth. You record the MIDI, edit and enhance then play it via MIDI to the TD9 and record the Audio output as it is played back from the MIDI track. You could via MIDI editing record just the Kick or Snare etc.
    post edited by Cactus Music - 2012/10/10 11:42:50

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #22
    Goddard
    Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 338
    • Joined: 2012/07/21 11:39:11
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/10 18:16:30 (permalink)
    A-ha!

    Well, now that everyone has understood what you are trying to do (use your TD-9 to trigger EZ Drummer drum syth VI plug-in), let's hope you can now understand what you need to do. 

    Be aware that there will always be some latency when listening to EZ Drummer as you play your TD9, because of the output buffering (and also any MIDI triggering delay). 

    If you need to hear what you are playing as you play it without any latency, then you need to monitor your TD-9's audio, either from the TD-9 module or running through your Quad Capture's input monitoring, but then you won't want to hear what EZ Drummer plays (because it will have some delay relative the TD-9's audio). So, you need to set input and playback monitoring correctly in Sonar and in your interface's mixer, and this will be different depending on whether you listen to EZ Drummer or your TD-9.

    Fwiw, you might want to record the TD-9's audio in Sonar if you plan to use "drum replacement" or drum-to-MIDI software on the audo.
    post edited by Goddard - 2012/10/10 18:24:47
    #23
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/12 12:37:10 (permalink)
    Hi, i'm back! I finally have some time to work on this. I'm gonna read everything now and after dinner try it all out. Looks promising. In the meantime (if it's still relevant) here's the date from my settings: Sampling rate 44100 (i can not put this higher eventhough i thought the Quad Capture could?). Buffersize in playback queue 2 Buffersize 5.8 msec 256 samples. Input 11.9 msec Output 17.1 msec Is this any good? Any problems here? I can't change it either way because that's what the Aiso driver selects on his own. Once again thank you for all the help!
    #24
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/12 12:38:54 (permalink)
    Middleman "The second one says you don't want the TD9 sounds, just the midi data which will trigger EZ drummer." That is correct. I do NOT want the TD9 sounds. I want the sounds from EZdrummer or whatever drum software i'm using at the moment.
    #25
    Middleman
    Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4397
    • Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
    • Location: Orange County, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/12 12:45:09 (permalink)
    Tripod


    Buffersize in playback queue 2 Buffersize 5.8 msec 256 samples. Input 11.9 msec Output 17.1 msec Is this any good? Any problems here?

    It's the source of your problem. You will need one of the work arounds outlined above so it becomes irrelevent.

    Gear: A bunch of stuff.
    #26
    bapu
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 86000
    • Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
    • Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/12 13:31:01 (permalink)
    Tripod


    Input 11.9 msec Output 17.1 msec Is this any good? Any problems here? 

    That is the equivalent of standing 29 feet away from the sound source. No wonder you have a delay.


    I can't change it either way because that's what the Aiso driver selects on his own. Once again thank you for all the help! 


    I have got to believe that you are overlooking some way to change the sample buffers. There has got to be a way to get it down to 64 samples (that should be your goal, IMO). The Quad Capture is a modern device and I would think (even though I do not own one) it is capable of 64 Sample Buffer in ASIO mode.



    #27
    Middleman
    Max Output Level: -31.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 4397
    • Joined: 2003/12/04 00:58:50
    • Location: Orange County, CA
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/12 13:50:32 (permalink)
    bapu

    That is the equivalent of standing 29 feet away from the sound source. No wonder you have a delay. 


    Somebody had their calculator at the ready. ;)


    Gear: A bunch of stuff.
    #28
    Tripod
    Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 101
    • Joined: 2012/03/31 06:12:06
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/12 13:53:25 (permalink)
    "I have got to believe that you are overlooking some way to change the sample buffers." Everything is greyed out in those settings. I can't change anything unless i use other drivers than Aiso. But i will try some things out. Including things mentioned above.
    #29
    Jim Roseberry
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 9871
    • Joined: 2004/03/23 11:34:51
    • Location: Ohio
    • Status: offline
    Re:Latency when playing electronic drums, no matter what i try 2012/10/12 14:21:44 (permalink)
    "I have got to believe that you are overlooking some way to change the sample buffers." Everything is greyed out in those settings. I can't change anything unless i use other drivers than Aiso. But i will try some things out. Including things mentioned above.



    Try closing Sonar... and adjusting the ASIO buffer size in the OctoCapture's control panel applet.
    Take it down to a 48-sample ASIO buffer size.  That'll yield 7.4ms round-trip latency at 44.1k.
    For playback of virtual instruments, your latency would be roughly half that, which would get the timing more in the comfort zone (~3ms) for triggering drum samples.

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #30
    Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
    Jump to:
    © 2022 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1