bitman
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/20 08:56:27
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I know enough about Sonar to get my simple jobs done.
As for learning new instruments, I traded a laptop for a pedal steel some years ago. <facepalm>
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Moshkito
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/20 10:50:06
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kennywtelejazz
...
You are a smart guy and I do get where you are coming from ... Learning how to use a DAW efficiently with any level of creatively takes a lot of work and commitment 
...
It got to the point a couple of years ago, that I have not touched anything on my computer setup for over a year ... kinda disappointed in some ways, but discouragement for me is a bad thing, and it has a tendency to interfere with my imagination and "desire" to get there. I'm wanting to get there, but at this time, the wanting is not strong enough, and probably waiting for someone to show up and give me a kick in the butt. I've even offered to pay for it ... if you can believe it, and it's not like someone has to teach me the ABC's in music! kennywtelejazz
...
Have you started specific threads asking for help on the forum ?
ex, setting up your sound card , setting up your midi , recording audio , editing audio , recording midi ,editing midi inserting synths , inserting plugs , various views and how to work in them ... importing audio , midi , video ....exporting audio , midi , video .....
...
A couple of times, but getting stuck, and not being able to get anywhere with it, became way too far and frustrating for that time. Again, as much as I want to get back into it full blast, right now, my head just is not there ... too worried about the Social Security thing, the Medicare thing, and such, and just not in a good space all around. kennywtelejazz
...
If you have tried those things and you still feel stuck . Then it sounds like to me that you just need a little one on one time with somebody to help you along with the basics of using SONAR (or fill in the blank for the chosen DAW )
hang in there .....help may be closer than you think .......
all the best,
...
Thanks. It seems like the easiest things are the ones not working ... I can take my cassette player, turntable, microphone and computer, all plugged into the mixer and be a veritable radio station ... and I am actually putting together hours of my "favorite" music (I really don't have favorites since anything can take me away real quick!), and pop it into a mp3 and then CD it and voila ... my own radio station while driving! (Only have about 25 CD's worth of mp3's with some 40 different bands to listen to in the car. Favorites while driving are usually Can, Hawkwind, Caravan, Guru Guru, Banco, Ange, Mike Oldfield, Vangelis, Tangerine Dream, Ash Ra Tempel, Popol Vuh ... the usual culprits with the so-called "krautrock", probably the best represented.) Some day ... before I give up ... it might happen. But I'm a bit like an autistic child, that goes with a sound/something and you wonder how he ... where the heck ... but one funny thing. Some 25 years ago, a friend of mine was taking guitar lessons and I decided to take the bass lessons at the same time. And the funny part was learning a song or two (I really did not want to do Chuck Berry, so to speak!), and then while playing as the teacher played his accoustic along, I would always make small adjustments here and there that Mike (his name) always thought were really cool, and suggested that I was a good listener to detail, that should make a good musician ... but I think that somewhere along the way, I got discouraged. None of the things I was doing or learning, were anywhere near what I was hearing and seeing in my head, and that is a problem. One of the secrets of creativity, is finding that seam, and staying there, and I can do that in writing, directing on stage or film ... but as much as I would love to do this in music ... just not there ... yet (hopefully). I'll send you something I wrote on a novel ... btw ... to get you a better idea of what I hear. Some piccies: http://www.pedrosena.com/homestudio.htm
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/20 12:00:10
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Randy P
Interesting thread Kenny. Since day 1 of this DAW thing, I've relied on treating it like the old analog studios of old. I've yet to try and learn midi or even one of the drum programs. I knew how to mix and record going in. It was just a matter of using a mouse to turn the knobs on plugins instead of my fingers.
I do remember one thing from when I started down this DAW road. When I got my first DAW (Guitar Tracks) I hadn't played live in a few years and my playing/practicing routine consisted of playing along with CDs. When I started recording I was shocked at how sloppy my playing had become from that. Of course, being the knuckle head I am, I jumped right in doing collabs with the likes of James, Larry Hansen and Mark Wessels. When you get tracks from those guys, you quickly realize you better step up your game. So thanks for that guys.
Hi Randy , Yes I agree , there are a few interesting reply's going on with the topic  The closest thing to analog I had on my own was a 4 track cassette ... later on I had gotten an 8 track .... Other than that , the only analog experience I had was from way back in the day where a studio had been booked and I was only there to play the guitar .... It was a Real Gas on one level for sure feeling all pumped up , yet back then I could see clearly that the engineers were super busy just setting up for the session ... I didn't have a working relationship with any of the engineers where I could have picked their brains off the clock ...so that left a lot of gaps in my knowledge regarding recording ... Thankfully a lot of kind people here on the forum got me up to speed on learning how to use my first DAW HS 2 ..then SONAR 5 at the time ... I would have been lost with out their help Yeah , Randy those were some nice collabs you did all the people you mentioned are decent players also ... all the best, Kenny
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/20 15:27:29
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☄ Helpfulby BobF 2016/10/20 15:45:51
bitman
I know enough about Sonar to get my simple jobs done.
As for learning new instruments, I traded a laptop for a pedal steel some years ago. <facepalm>
+1 on getting the simple jobs done .... then when I listen to them the next day I want to fire myself  I got to Love Beagle .... I paid him in beacon for helping me w some song critiques and he told me the truth ...  Kenny
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/21 14:24:17
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Hey Pedro ,
OK I looked at your pics ,
I see you have mixers and a bunch of other stuff ...that's all cool yet, a few quick questions ..
Do you have a proper audio interface / soundcard for audio that also does midi ? if you do what is it ...
how are you recording your synths ...as audio ...as midi ...
what's the main creative hang up ...is it learning the DAW ? or is it the musical / playing end of things ?
all the best ,
Kenny
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BassDaddy
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/21 20:50:42
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/10/24 08:00:42
kennywtelejazz
Both learning activity's seem very necessary to bring one's own personal Music creation to the next level ....
I've been wrestling with this one myself for a long while ....
I'm curious to hear how folks around here balance both learning curves .
all the best ,
Kenny
Kenny, I would only add Songwriting to that equation. If you want to be a songwriter you have to be able to write them down. On paper or a recorder of some type. It's not a song until you can get it outside of you. It's a concept until then. If you could have exactly what you want, which side of the glass would you want to be on? If you write songs that forces you to play stuff you can't play right now. So the song drives your playing and improving. Not just technique for it's own sake.
It's Bass, not Bass. i7 2700K, 16GB DDR3, 2 SSD sample drives and OS drive, HDD SATAIII for projects, 2 24" monitors Focusrite Saffire Pro 24, Focusrite VRM Box, LAVA Lamp, SONAR Platinum 64 bit, Mackie MCU and 1 MCU XT, Akai Advance 49, Windows 10, Komplete 9 Ultimate, Cakewalk, Toontrack, IK, AAS, XLN, UVI, Air Music Tech, Waves Factory, Sample Tek and Sonivox VSTi's. Overloud, T-Racks, Audio Damage, D16, Nomad Factory, Waves Gold FX
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Rain
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/22 01:30:10
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/10/25 10:06:18
When fingers bleed, switch from guitar to DAW. :P
I really wouldn't know.
When I received my copy of Guitar Studio, back in 99, I sat down with the manual and read it from cover to cover twice before I installed the software.
At first, everything was centered around the guitar. Progressively though, my DAW and tools like Fruity Loops and the first few Virtual Instruments started taking more and more place. The guitar started gathering dust, and eventually, I ended up writing things that required no guitar at all. For years. So I guess I learned my DAW pretty well back then.
I shouldn't neglect to mention that I had reached a plateau on the guitar and had been stuck there for years - so it wasn't all that hard to focus on something else. Heck, the whole rock scene and guitar itself were in some weird place during that decade.
When I switched to Logic, I didn't want to waste time figuring out things, so I read the manual, watched tutorials every chance I got and ordered advanced manuals. I became proficient very quickly. And by some strange coincidence, it's at that point that I finally got back to guitar, and methodically started working on improving my playing.
So now, I spend a lot more time on the guitar. And I feel comfortable enough with my DAW not to worry about it.
Mastering your DAW requires intense commitment for a certain amount of time - then you simply need to work with it regularly and just stay on top of things.
An instrument is a different story.
I remember reading that story about cellist Pablo Casals and how he still spent 4 or 5 hours practicing every day when he was in his 80's. When asked why, he answered "Because I think I am making progress." To me, that sums it up.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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Moshkito
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/22 11:05:17
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kennywtelejazz
Hey Pedro ,
OK I looked at your pics ,
I see you have mixers and a bunch of other stuff ...that's all cool yet, a few quick questions ..
Do you have a proper audio interface / soundcard for audio that also does midi ? if you do what is it ...
...
The sound card on that machine is the Delta 1010LT ... which has so many ins and outs that you can't use? (Hehehehehe!!! Their software only allows one to be used!) Audio interface ... a small cheapie, but otherwise none and not sure what I need to get. kennywtelejazz
...
how are you recording your synths ...as audio ...as midi ...
what's the main creative hang up ...is it learning the DAW ? or is it the musical / playing end of things ?
...
I have IKT Philharmonic, Jupiter 8v from Arturia and a few other thingies here and there, some VST's and enjoy fooling around on the sound of them. All in all, sort of too much software to confuse one's noodles. Midi is setup and it plays things fine, and I have setup a whole bunch of slides and knobs in the Jupiter setup (lots of fun!), but have not been able to extend things as I hoped for in it, to make them more useful for me. I have used, in the past, Audacity to record on the second computer, as a way to learn things some and get used to recording levels. The nice thing about Audacity was/is its simplicity and I can turn the files to mp3 real easy. I simply take the outlet from the mixer and send it to the 2nd machine to record ... this way, the 1st machine is free to play different things, and allows me to play the keyboard or mix anything from the stereo receiver or turntable or cassette machine. In essence all of these feed the mixer as do the keyboards and this allows me to use the 1st machine on a VST, or Jupiter, or IKT individually, and even mix them up with a mp3 or two ... the levels of which I have to be careful and aware of ahead of time. It's a "radio station" kind of setup, you could say ... and I was hoping to be able to move to Sonar (a DAW, anyway) instead of Audacity, to have more flexibility about adding things and making changes here and there, for example. I'm not even a good one for using Audacity ... for that matter, and up to now I have just really recorded on it, and almost all the stuff I had has long been erased in favor of new stuff, before the advent of the cheap hard drives in the past couple of years. Both of those machines do not have huge hard drives yet, and I will probably add them as secondaries for the purpose of saving work ... that is still in the thinking stages I think! kennywtelejazz
...
all the best ,
Kenny
Much appreciated. As I mentioned before, radio is pretty much where I am closest to, but the DAW has thrown a curve ball that tied me up in knots and spins! Maybe I'm just ... over thinking things. Thanks for your checking out things ... much appreciated and I'm really hopeful that it will help. I'm not frustrated with writing, but more and more and more ... of music is needed ... for me, they go together, not apart.
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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Zargg
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/22 11:37:14
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/10/25 17:49:48
Moshkito
The sound card on that machine is the Delta 1010LT ... which has so many ins and outs that you can't use? (Hehehehehe!!! Their software only allows one to be used!)
Hi, Pedro. I had one of those a few years back, and was able to do multitrack recordings with it, using a Behringer mixer as preamps. I never used it on Win 8 or 10, though (Win 2000, Xp, Vista and Win 7). Do you have the latest ASIO drivers for it? http://www.m-audio.com/support/drivers-search (this assuming you are using Win 7 SP1 X64) (If on newer Windows, try installing driver in compatibility mode) I remember having issues with one of their drivers, though I do not remember which (but not the latest driver). If I can be of any help, just PM me. Regarding this, or SONAR wise. All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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bjornpdx
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/22 20:40:45
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Seems like most of you here on this forum have been doing hands-on music since you were babies. I don't have that experience so I tend to hang back on posting anything, but the subject of this thread got me to thinking about things.
I suppose I'm not your typical DAW user. I know my way around a keyboard and guitar but only enough to pick out a melody. I've never been in a band (except playing clarinet in the high school marching band) and I've never been in a recording studio doing whatever those guys do.
Music has always been a source of bliss for me, so in the mid-80s I followed that bliss with an Atari 1040ST computer, an Ensonique ESQ-M synth, Dr T's sequencing program and proceeded to create my own songs, mostly by way of entering notes via MIDI. And I have to admit that things haven't changed much since then except for the technology. Basically I play a melody line into Sonar then correct/expand it in PRV with MIDI. So I know the MIDI capabilities of Sonar pretty well and that's how I play an instrument and for me it works pretty well. The main thing that's lacking is how it's played, the dynamics of it, which can be corrected in PRV as well, though it's laborious.
I think about picking up the guitar lessons where I left off about ten years ago but then reality sets in. I'm getting on in years and my fingers don't move as well as they used to. And it seems kind of pointless to try and attain a level of competency on an instrument at this point in my life that maybe I should have attained fifty years ago. I don't really need that skill anyway to accomplish what I want to do in music, which is to create a song that I like.
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synkrotron
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/24 08:37:44
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Good question Kenny. craigb
I'm FAR more comfortable with learning a DAW, but that makes sense; computers are my life.
What an excellent reflection of my own circumstances... My guitar and keyboard playing has certainly suffered over the years. Some peeps are "naturals," and can pick up an instrument, of any type, and start playing. Not the case with me. And learning your DAW is just the start of it. Learning how to use your tools of choice, as well as learning about the intricacies of the frequency spectrum... And the learning never stops!
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/24 09:04:38
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BassDaddy
kennywtelejazz
Both learning activity's seem very necessary to bring one's own personal Music creation to the next level ....
I've been wrestling with this one myself for a long while ....
I'm curious to hear how folks around here balance both learning curves .
all the best ,
Kenny
Kenny, I would only add Songwriting to that equation. If you want to be a songwriter you have to be able to write them down. On paper or a recorder of some type. It's not a song until you can get it outside of you. It's a concept until then. If you could have exactly what you want, which side of the glass would you want to be on? If you write songs that forces you to play stuff you can't play right now. So the song drives your playing and improving. Not just technique for it's own sake.
Yes BassDaddy, you have a very good idea there When I started the thread , I was just trying to squeeze what I could place within the treads topic before it maxed out on the amount of letters and words .... As far as I'm concerned, people can feel free to discus any topic or element of the various subjects they work on musically in this thread... Songwriting , practicing , learning the DAW, playing the guitar , becoming an engineer and balancing that with playing ....anything they want .... I have worked with many Songwriters over the years (mostly back in the day ), Some were very fluent and precise in what they could play and wanted in a song they were writing . Some could barely hum their way out of a paper bag while banging a beat out on the side of a guitar with out even having the ability to play a chord on the guitar ...yet they could come up with a brilliant song ... Since I'm not a singer , it made no difference to me whatsoever ...my role was to serve the song in anyway I could. The people I have worked with have sought my help for melodies , additional lyrics , song arrangements , guitar parts for recording sessions and demos, solo guitar backing for small duet gigs ...membership in a band ...lot's of things ..to many to list here now.... IMHO , to do any of that as a valued contributing player ...You have to have chops More than once I have worked with a very talented Artist that could write a mean song yet they couldn't play it or sing it right or worth a $hit ... Sure they could strum it in the key of G on a guitar and sing it half a$$ed in that key while they are writing it ... It's a whole other thing when I slap a capo on their guitar so they can strum it just like they did in G but now in Bb Then they find out that they now have the right vocal range to be able to sing the song they wrote in such a way as to bring the house down .... When I get to do it ....the bulk of what I consider to be what I enjoy doing the most is playing live in front an audience ... It's happened to me plenty of times when somebody has decided to change the key of a song right there on stage because they might have been dealing w a sore throat or a shot voice .... You better believe I'm happy I got the tech and chops to be able to play my guitar in that key and think fast on my feet .... it's all good , it's been nice talking w you , Kenny
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2016/10/25 10:05:54
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/25 10:33:19
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Rain
Mastering your DAW requires intense commitment for a certain amount of time - then you simply need to work with it regularly and just stay on top of things.
An instrument is a different story.
I remember reading that story about cellist Pablo Casals and how he still spent 4 or 5 hours practicing every day when he was in his 80's. When asked why, he answered "Because I think I am making progress." To me, that sums it up.
Hi Rain , thanks for sharing your quote here rang a bell .... BassDaddy
kennywtelejazz
Both learning activity's seem very necessary to bring one's own personal Music creation to the next level ....
I've been wrestling with this one myself for a long while ....
I'm curious to hear how folks around here balance both learning curves .
all the best ,
Kenny
Kenny, I would only add Songwriting to that equation. If you want to be a songwriter you have to be able to write them down. On paper or a recorder of some type. It's not a song until you can get it outside of you. It's a concept until then. If you could have exactly what you want, which side of the glass would you want to be on? If you write songs that forces you to play stuff you can't play right now. So the song drives your playing and improving. Not just technique for it's own sake.
I took your advice and changed the opening post ...thank you Moshkito
kennywtelejazz
Hey Pedro ,
OK I looked at your pics ,
I see you have mixers and a bunch of other stuff ...that's all cool yet, a few quick questions ..
Do you have a proper audio interface / soundcard for audio that also does midi ? if you do what is it ...
...
The sound card on that machine is the Delta 1010LT ... which has so many ins and outs that you can't use? (Hehehehehe!!! Their software only allows one to be used!)
Audio interface ... a small cheapie, but otherwise none and not sure what I need to get.
OK Pedro , lets start here first .... I have the same card in my XP computer ...The Delta 1010lt ... I liked it very much , so much so that I also picked up an Audiophile 192 .....the 192 is still sitting in a box brand new until I figure out if and when what type of desktop I may get someday .... The 1010lt is a fine card ....it is a little tricky to set up because if you want to monitor what you are playing you will need to run an external mixer from the main outs into a small mixer out to your monitors to be able to hear what you are recording in real time .... You actually have 10 tracks mono , or 5 tracks stereo for both your inputs and outputs RCA style cable.... You also have midi in and midi out plus and optical interface .... Judging by your pics, it is certainly more than enough to go pretty deep ....definitely a lot deeper than you may have used the 1010lt so far ..... IIFC, you mentioned you had ran Music Creator and Abelton in the past and the learning curve roughed you up a little bit ... What full type of DAW music software do you have on the computer w the 1010lt ? lets here some specs ...OS ? ...64 bit ? 32 bit ? and do you still have your DAW's / install disks ? IMHO since that computer does have a decent sound card ..it may be a good place to start then once that is up to speed you can build up from there .... BTW , I'm not suggesting that you should change every thing around if you like being like a small radio station I'm suggesting that we get you set up to be able to create in a DAW w a sound card proper and then branch out from there .... Another question , do you have a lap top ? if you do does it have any music software on it ? I ask you that because I probably don't live much more that 15 miles away from you and if it's only a matter of getting unstuck w the DAW , I can probably meet up with you at a library or a coffee house hang in there bro ... all the best , Kenny
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/25 18:41:27
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Hey Ken , thanks for offering to help out Pedro bjornpdx
Seems like most of you here on this forum have been doing hands-on music since you were babies. I don't have that experience so I tend to hang back on posting anything, but the subject of this thread got me to thinking about things.
I suppose I'm not your typical DAW user. I know my way around a keyboard and guitar but only enough to pick out a melody. I've never been in a band (except playing clarinet in the high school marching band) and I've never been in a recording studio doing whatever those guys do.
Music has always been a source of bliss for me, so in the mid-80s I followed that bliss with an Atari 1040ST computer, an Ensonique ESQ-M synth, Dr T's sequencing program and proceeded to create my own songs, mostly by way of entering notes via MIDI. And I have to admit that things haven't changed much since then except for the technology. Basically I play a melody line into Sonar then correct/expand it in PRV with MIDI. So I know the MIDI capabilities of Sonar pretty well and that's how I play an instrument and for me it works pretty well. The main thing that's lacking is how it's played, the dynamics of it, which can be corrected in PRV as well, though it's laborious.
I think about picking up the guitar lessons where I left off about ten years ago but then reality sets in. I'm getting on in years and my fingers don't move as well as they used to. And it seems kind of pointless to try and attain a level of competency on an instrument at this point in my life that maybe I should have attained fifty years ago. I don't really need that skill anyway to accomplish what I want to do in music, which is to create a song that I like.
Hi Bjorn , Sure , I get where you are coming from , it's all good Regarding the type of workflow style you do .... that is some pretty intricate stuff to be able to compose good sounding sequenced music using a computer ... One time I sat in and watched one of the Composers from the Star Trek franchise score an episode of Star Trek Voyager ... Paul Baillargeon http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0047574/ Paul used to like to score some of the episodes of Voyager he composed at my brother Kevin's place since he kept his gear at my brothers place and he hated staying in Hotels.... I found it very interesting to watch him that one time I was allowed to watch because he never even broke a sweat coming up with the music ... As he was watching the episode on a moniter , he was playing a mid keyboard running an assortment of midi rack-mount moduals into some sort of computer while his assistant notated every thing he had come up with in the orchestral midi mock up ... The very next day they went into the studio in L A and had a real orchestra play the score ... I saw the show the following week on TV .... Me personally , I would love to go there , yet I know I don't have the chops to pull that type of gig off ( today or maybe never ) I'm gonna stick to my guitar ... Anyway , I got into the computer game pretty late in life . Right around the time I joined this forum ... it's been nice talking with you , Kenny
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Moshkito
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/29 11:27:34
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Zargg
http://www.m-audio.com/support/drivers-search (this assuming you are using Win 7 SP1 X64)
(If on newer Windows, try installing driver in compatibility mode)
...
W7 Pro X64 ... and it is/was up to date with all versions. I'll recheck the drivers, but even its little software appears to be very limited as far as i can tell. I have not updated that machine to W10, probably because of that sound card. I have not seen support for it, and it is still being sold, meaning that it is probably OK, however, if the software it has does the same thing, there would be no improvements, maybe? I have a feeling that M-Audio likely thinks that with W8 and W10, the driver issue is not important?
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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Zargg
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/29 13:04:55
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Moshkito
Zargg
http://www.m-audio.com/support/drivers-search (this assuming you are using Win 7 SP1 X64)
(If on newer Windows, try installing driver in compatibility mode)
...
W7 Pro X64 ... and it is/was up to date with all versions. I'll recheck the drivers, but even its little software appears to be very limited as far as i can tell.
I have not updated that machine to W10, probably because of that sound card. I have not seen support for it, and it is still being sold, meaning that it is probably OK, however, if the software it has does the same thing, there would be no improvements, maybe? I have a feeling that M-Audio likely thinks that with W8 and W10, the driver issue is not important?
The 1010LT software is somewhat limited, but quite usable for recording, playback and mixing. You can do loopbacks (cable in / out) for internal routing. IIRC it does not support very low latency. I had mine for almost 10 years before I sold it, in almost mint condition. Win 7 was the last stable OS when using mine. So I would not upgrade if you do not have any use for Win 10. I did not have issues using it in Win 7, at least. Try installing the drivers in the link I provided, and choose ASIO drivers. If it does not help, give me a shout. All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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Kev999
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/29 16:32:18
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I currently have an injury that will prevent me from playing an instrument for the next few weeks (i.e. my thumb got trapped in a doorway). Fortunately I can still operate a mouse, so I can continue manipulating audio and midi. It's business as usual really.
SonarPlatinum∞(22.11.0.111)|Mixbus32C(4.3.19)|DigitalPerformer(9.5.1)|Reaper(5.77)FractalDesign:DefineR5|i7-6850k@4.1GHz|16GB@2666MHz-DDR4|MSI:GamingProCarbonX99a|Matrox:M9148(x2)|UAD2solo(6.5.2)|W7Ult-x64-SP1
Audient:iD22+ASP800|KRK:VXT6|+various-outboard-gear|+guitars&basses, etc.
Having fun at work lately
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Zargg
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/29 16:46:06
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Kev999
I currently have an injury that will prevent me from playing an instrument for the next few weeks (i.e. my thumb got trapped in a doorway). Fortunately I can still operate a mouse, so I can continue manipulating audio and midi. It's business as usual really.
I know how you feel  I broke my left ring finger approx 3 weeks ago, and am getting guitar withdrawals  Still able to operate a pc (barely ).
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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craigb
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/30 04:07:38
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Damn... Now MY fingers hurt just thinking about it!
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/30 08:32:30
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synkrotron
Good question Kenny.
craigb
I'm FAR more comfortable with learning a DAW, but that makes sense; computers are my life.
What an excellent reflection of my own circumstances... My guitar and keyboard playing has certainly suffered over the years. Some peeps are "naturals," and can pick up an instrument, of any type, and start playing. Not the case with me.
And learning your DAW is just the start of it. Learning how to use your tools of choice, as well as learning about the intricacies of the frequency spectrum...
And the learning never stops!
Hi synkrotron , good post I like the last few sentences . They apply to my situation ....thank you . Kev999
I currently have an injury that will prevent me from playing an instrument for the next few weeks (i.e. my thumb got trapped in a doorway). Fortunately I can still operate a mouse, so I can continue manipulating audio and midi. It's business as usual really.
Kev999 , Ouch , I hope you feel better soon... Kenny
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mixmkr
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/30 12:23:11
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/11/07 07:03:09
Interesting to read other responses... lots of old farts here, kinda like me. I have a Berklee degree ('82) under my belt along with their audio and electronic curriculums. I play "slow and easy"... kinda like Pink Floyd...so I don't need to sweep pick. I stopped actual practicing years ago, and just enjoy playing and recording every day. Play "smart...not Yngie"....is my motto. I think it is important (at least to me) to stay up to date with computer recording and being a musician for most of my life (now 63) has given me the chops. My Teac 3440 started the recording revolution in my life back in the mid 70's...and CD burning as soon as it was "affordable" in the 90's. Sonar is sooooo deep, but I can use it like I was in a Studer equipped million dollar facility. I love it nowadays. So... there is no balancing act really. It just occurs.
post edited by mixmkr - 2016/11/12 11:39:50
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Moshkito
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/31 10:50:10
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Zargg
http://www.m-audio.com/support/drivers-search (this assuming you are using Win 7 SP1 X64)
(If on newer Windows, try installing driver in compatibility mode)
...
Try installing the drivers in the link I provided, and choose ASIO drivers.
If it does not help, give me a shout.
All the best.
Thanks ... on it just to make sure, but I think that it is on ASIO drivers.
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/31 14:10:25
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☼ Best Answerby kennywtelejazz 2016/10/31 17:48:04
The mechanical process of playing an instrument and using a DAW are fairly straightforward, even though they are learned in a very different manner. Developing skill on an instrument requires extensive practice, essentially building and expanding on muscle memory. The mechanics of configuring and using a DAW are very different and rely much more on understanding basic concepts and following known processes to accomplish a desired result.
The artistic side of playing an instrument and using a DAW are less about technique and more about feel. Musicians will often learn artistry through imitation, as if pledging themselves to a self-assigned apprenticeship to a master (or role model). In some cases, musicians may get the opportunity to study in person with someone who takes on that mentor role. For those who approach music from the DAW side (instead of as a musician first), it can be difficult to appreciate the degree of discipline, dedication and time required to develop those skills. In a similar way, when learning the art of mixing, recording engineers would typically spend many hours watching and learning an experienced engineer before getting a chance to sit at the board themselves. In the home recording world, aspiring engineers frequently blunder around until they find their mentor.
In both cases, talent only goes so far. Real artistry requires dedication, effort and sacrifice. It's not for everyone. Some only want to be good enough to have some fun and there's nothing wrong with that. Many of those in the middle get frustrated with their inability to achieve the results they desire or with the time required to build their skills. They get so busy comparing their work with others, that it becomes a popularity contest. In my opinion, great artists can appreciate the artistry of others without feeling threatened by it. Art should be created to express the feelings, ideas and personality of the artist rather than to convince other people of the artist's greatness.
This is a long-winded way of saying that real artistry takes time and hard work. One should be prepared to take a breath, have some patience, and learn everything one can from as many masters as possible.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/10/31 18:03:41
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Ubiquito usBubba ....WOW...excellent post Thank you so much for sharing what you said . I got a lot out of it ... Kenny
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patm300e
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/11/01 08:08:24
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/11/07 07:02:55
Great topic Kenny!
I started with the drums, vocals & harmonica...Did the bar band thing in my 20s and 30s.
Yes, I pay the harmonica while playing drums weird right?
I was always interested in recording. I would record the band with a cassette recorder and two small condenser mikes from Radio Shack. Some of those recordings actually sound OK!
I did some work with my brother's band so I knew my way around a mixer. I actually ran sound for a few bands I was in WHILE playing the drums. I had people in the audience that I trusted to tell me what I needed to do with the mix.
I decided to take guitar lessons and the teacher turned me on to Cakewalk. I used his computer and Pro Audio 9 for a while, then bought a copy of Home Studio. I was hooked. I have never been much of a guitar player, but I can bang out some chords on Acoustic and Electric and have recently started doing bass as well.
I am lucky though, My nephew is a stellar guitar player and my brother is a really good bass player. I can put down ideas and have them fill in the gaps (unless it is insanely easy to play!).
I always use live drums. I mean I have three drum sets in my house right now and a small midi set as well...
I have never tried drum replacer. I like trying to get that perfect drum sound, but have never succeeded. My rooms are too small to get the ambience and I have never been very good at faking that. Not sure you actually can.
SPLAT on a Home built i3 16 GB RAM 64-bit Windows 10 Home Premium 120GB SSD (OS) 2TB Data Drive. Behringer XR-18 USB 2.0 Interface. FaderPort control.
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spacey
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/11/06 08:20:46
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/11/07 07:02:44
kennywtelejazz
I'm curious to hear how folks around here balance all the different learning curves they encounter in their musical journey.
How do you maintain your musical growth as a developing Artist while you spend time getting better at learning and using your DAW ?
By all means , please feel free to discus any aspect of your personal music experience and how you have grown .
all the best ,
Kenny
Last quarter of the year I don't work much so thought I'd spend some time here in between some home projects; I don't have many learning curves because my musical journey is that of an old man. I'm now living in a time where I really don't listen to music unless it's a blu-ray concert for relaxing/escape. I mean there is music around me...the radio etc. but it's really just background noise. Maybe once in a while I'll hear something because it caught my attention. Not like when music was a love and form of living...being a musician with musicians. Now I'm a guitarist that plays mostly to jam with tracks I create or backing tracks for "application" and it's all just to keep my fingers, brain and guitar working together while hoping I can play in my retirement years. I have what is probably a "bad attitude" because I really don't care about keeping up with how the music world or marketing of it is going. It's not an attitude- it's that I just don't care what others are doing. Unlike when I was younger I'm now only interested in what I'm doing. With that said;The learning curves- The Guitar- application of new "things". Whether it be a new lick, theory application, or new exercises in general. Many ideas of things to practice "spurred" by jamming. That's what I love about jamming- when the conscious mind gets out of the way. Playing has taken a back seat to building guitars but they balance together very well. The DAW- Just not much to it. I handle it much like I did my guitar rig. A good guitar, amp and very few boxes. I think the most I ever used was 4/5. Volume pedal, distortion, Wah, Comp, Phase. - Vol./Dist mostly. With me thinking that the most important part of recording is getting the sound right going in it doesn't take much more than "placement in the sound field" to have very acceptable results. Of course I'm not using the DAW for serious attempts and have no desire to do so. (and it takes more that panning for sound field placement as we know) You can see it doesn't take much to learn or remember to record, edit and mix with Sonar. But I play instruments so I don't use many of it's "plastic" functions. ( a term the older ones will know what I mean lol) Mostly limited to Spectrasonics stuff. Personal Music Experience- I don't spend much time with music now. I don't want to. I spent 20 years of my life 24/7 with a guitar in the music world. In '85 I got smart. Glad I did too. Fortunately I had enough time to secure a very comfortable retirement...if health permits, of course and so far, so good with that. Well, I can't eat Butterfingers when I want so that's kind of a bummer. - so looking back I can now say in response to your "how you've grown" as; I'm sure glad I grew away from the music scene when I did. A guitar to play and a way to hear it back is good enough for me. Nothing more needed or wanted. All the best to you too Kenny, Mike
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/11/06 16:06:46
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mixmkr
Interesting to read other responses...
lots of old farts here, kinda like me. I have a Berklee degree ('82) under my belt along with their audio and electronic curriculums.
I play "slow and easy"... kinda like Pink Floyd...so I don't need to sweep pick. I stopped actual practicing years ago, and just enjoy playing and recording every day. Play "smart...not Yngie"....is my motto.
I think it is important (at least to me) to stay up to date with computer recording and being a musician for most of my life (now 63) has given me the chops. My Teac 3440 started the recording revolution in my life back in the mid 70's...and CD burning as soon as it was "affordable" in the 90's. Sonar is sooooo deep, but I can use it like I was in a Studer equipped million dollar facility. I love it nowadays.
So... there is no balancing act really. It just occurs.
Hi mixmkr , Yes , like you , I have also found it to be very interesting to read other peoples responses in this thread. Sure , it may seem that a lot of the fellas (and gals ) around here are of an older end user demographic .... I kinda think for those of us that are in that category age wise , we may have found that the way things are now have turned out to be a big plus for some of us ... I fall into the camp of people that finds it mind boggling to see and know how far things have actually come when it comes to the home recording options I have now ... I have watched a couple of your videos in the past good stuff . all the best, Kenny
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/11/07 04:49:13
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patm300e
Great topic Kenny!
I started with the drums, vocals & harmonica...Did the bar band thing in my 20s and 30s.
Yes, I pay the harmonica while playing drums weird right?
I was always interested in recording. I would record the band with a cassette recorder and two small condenser mikes from Radio Shack. Some of those recordings actually sound OK!
I did some work with my brother's band so I knew my way around a mixer. I actually ran sound for a few bands I was in WHILE playing the drums. I had people in the audience that I trusted to tell me what I needed to do with the mix.
I decided to take guitar lessons and the teacher turned me on to Cakewalk. I used his computer and Pro Audio 9 for a while, then bought a copy of Home Studio. I was hooked. I have never been much of a guitar player, but I can bang out some chords on Acoustic and Electric and have recently started doing bass as well.
I am lucky though, My nephew is a stellar guitar player and my brother is a really good bass player. I can put down ideas and have them fill in the gaps (unless it is insanely easy to play!).
I always use live drums. I mean I have three drum sets in my house right now and a small midi set as well...
I have never tried drum replacer. I like trying to get that perfect drum sound, but have never succeeded. My rooms are too small to get the ambience and I have never been very good at faking that. Not sure you actually can.
Hi Pat , Thanks for sharing Home Studio 2 was my first introduction to Cakewalk DAW's Man ,you are one lucky guy since you get to always use real drums ... I wish someday to go there ...apt life squashed that dream temporarily for the moment ... Yes, I love the sound of Harp ... I also play from time to time ...I ain't no Toots Thielman or Stevie Wonder but I can bend a mean note nice talking with you , Kenny
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patm300e
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/11/07 08:29:31
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kennywtelejazz
Hi Pat ,
Yes, I love the sound of Harp ...
I also play from time to time ...I ain't no Toots Thielman or Stevie Wonder but I can bend a mean note
Yeah, I'm not that good either...But when Jimmy Buffet came to town we were tailgating and Margaritaville Tequila set up a booth with Karaoke (Jimmy Buffet tunes naturally!). Me & my buddy went up and sang a couple. When one of the song's harmonica part came up, I pulled out my special 20 and played it! They were impressed and gave me a T shirt! I also have a copy of the demo my old band recorded where I did a harmonica lead on Back Up Against the Wall (Atlanta Rhythm Section tune made popular by Travis Tritt). Recording Engineer just used an SM-57 on the harmonica. Sounds pretty good and since I don't have any special mikes for my harp, I use a 57.
SPLAT on a Home built i3 16 GB RAM 64-bit Windows 10 Home Premium 120GB SSD (OS) 2TB Data Drive. Behringer XR-18 USB 2.0 Interface. FaderPort control.
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eph221
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Re: Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?
2016/11/09 11:49:34
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Rain
When fingers bleed, switch from guitar to DAW. :P
I really wouldn't know.
When I received my copy of Guitar Studio, back in 99, I sat down with the manual and read it from cover to cover twice before I installed the software.
At first, everything was centered around the guitar. Progressively though, my DAW and tools like Fruity Loops and the first few Virtual Instruments started taking more and more place. The guitar started gathering dust, and eventually, I ended up writing things that required no guitar at all. For years. So I guess I learned my DAW pretty well back then.
I shouldn't neglect to mention that I had reached a plateau on the guitar and had been stuck there for years - so it wasn't all that hard to focus on something else. Heck, the whole rock scene and guitar itself were in some weird place during that decade.
When I switched to Logic, I didn't want to waste time figuring out things, so I read the manual, watched tutorials every chance I got and ordered advanced manuals. I became proficient very quickly. And by some strange coincidence, it's at that point that I finally got back to guitar, and methodically started working on improving my playing.
So now, I spend a lot more time on the guitar. And I feel comfortable enough with my DAW not to worry about it.
Mastering your DAW requires intense commitment for a certain amount of time - then you simply need to work with it regularly and just stay on top of things.
An instrument is a different story.
I remember reading that story about cellist Pablo Casals and how he still spent 4 or 5 hours practicing every day when he was in his 80's. When asked why, he answered "Because I think I am making progress." To me, that sums it up.
Music can be an obsession rather than a love. Who's to say that's a bad thing?
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