Learning to play an instrument well VS learning a DAW . How do you do it ?

There seems to be a lot necessary things a person has to learn to bring one's own personal Music creation up to the next level .... 
 
As a guitarist ,
I'm constantly having to find the time to keep sharp on my guitar playing while I'm over here watching hours of u tubes and Groove 3 videos centered at teaching me how to get better at using a DAW ...
 
I'm curious to hear how folks around here balance all the different learning curves they encounter in their musical journey.
 
Singers, Songwriters, Guitarists, Keyboard players, Electronic Instrument players , Drummers, Bass players and any other group of musicians including Producers, Beat Makers ..ect ect...This topic is open to all aspects of your music ....
 
How do you maintain your musical growth as a developing  Artist while you spend time getting better at learning and using your  DAW ?
 
By all means , please feel free to discus any aspect of your personal music experience and how you have grown .
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny

craigb
I'm FAR more comfortable with learning a DAW, but that makes sense; computers are my life.
 
I think the balance comes in when you realize that there's far more right brain (creative) involved with learning an instrument and far more left brain (logical) when learning a DAW.  Unless you're a very balanced (so-called "Whole-brain") type, you're going to struggle learning one more than the other.

that's cool Craig
 
I keep forgetting which brain side is which ...either way , even when you are playing an instrument I'm sure that the logical side comes into play ...at least in my case if I'm working on learning on a new technique ...
ex...finger-style w a pick or learning something on the guitar in one key and then having to work it out in various keys on the fret board ...
 
as far as the topic went I tried to keep it simple ...this VS that is not my thing usually at all  ...
Both the instrument and the DAW have hundreds of subdivisions of topics and things to learn ...
That's kinda what I'm interested in ...How people deal with that and make personal progress...
IMHO ....it's pretty deep waters ....heck even with SONAR , with all the VST instruments ,plugs and dodads there never seems to be a shortage of new things to learn ....
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 
 

Kev999

craigb
...there's far more right brain (creative) involved with learning an instrument and far more left brain (logical) when learning a DAW.  Unless you're a very balanced (so-called "Whole-brain") type, you're going to struggle learning one more than the other.

 
I try to use both sides whatever I'm doing, whether it's creative or technical. I don't claim to be well-balanced though.

I hear that
 

Slugbaby
I was a musician for 20+ years before getting my first DAW.  I found that the confidence with my musicianship helped to define where my recordings were lacking.  I could trust that the music was played properly, so any deficiencies were likely in the recording or mixing techniques.
That gave me the information I needed to investigate the DAW-related processes to get closer to my ideal end product.  
 
Then I realized that a talented engineer/producer could do much better than me, so i give him the recorded tracks and a note saying "fix/mix it!"  With age comes the (occasional) wisdom to recognize my limitations.  

Thank you for sharing that  Slugbaby.
As far as my playing went , I was playing with and had access to musicians that were much further along career wise than I was ..
I was constantly thrust into musical situations where I was being exposed to music with players that challenged me to grow as a guitar player , well rounded musician and human being ...
FWIW most of this era of my playing was done in the older model of the music business ..what I mean by that is people would play together and when they decided to record they would go into a Pro name recording studio to cut song demos to bring to record company's .
I feel lucky that I had caught the tail end of that era ...then I started out on my own ....it's been down hill ever since
I'm with you on the whole using professional engineers /players and whomever that can assist in bringing the music to where it should or could be  ...
What ever time I have spent trying to learn the DAW and all the nuances of engineering have not been a waste of my time ...I do feel that it has been helpful to a degree ...
A person has to do what they have to do to put themselves in a position to be able to create music , network and make the rounds ...
One day soon I hope to find out what the difference would be by taking my absolute best to a Pro and having them
bring their skills and talents to the table using Pro gear ...In my case it's a money thing plus my focus is still over the place ...I haven't found that one special tune or project that would warrant that type of expenditure ....
 nice talking with you ....
 

bapu
What slug says, except I had been programming business applications for 15 or so years before I started with MIDI sequencing and had been recording to tape (analog and ADATS) and then moved on to audio recording in a DAW.
 
And thus the DAW concept was not entirely foreign to me. And yes I have learned new ways to skin an old cat but thankfully not with shell shock.
 

That's cool Ed thank you for sharing that .
I've had a midi guitar since 1983 ...back then most of my midi experiences were VIA using floppy disk hardware midi sequencers ....then a 4 track ( audio tape ) ....mostly for my own hobby ...then as a player / sideman I was playing out a lot and I didn't have the time to focus on that end of things ...
A couple of years before I joined this forum I had bought a Boss BR1180  CD and started getting back into self recording ....then I wound up here when I started using Home Studio 2 ....
still here .....still trying to figure it all out
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny
 

Guitarhacker
I had the musical side together before I started into the recording side.
 
It was, for me, a simple matter of finding the most efficient way to work with the DAW so that it didn't interfere with the creative process.   Find the easy path and things work out.   I tried purposely to avoid getting too deep into the technical aspects. It's easy to chase rabbit trails and before long, you've wasted an hour or more, accomplished little to nothing, and lost the creative spark.
 
My goal in learning the DAW was to make it as transparent to the process as possible. This is especially true in the tracking stages of the project.  Now... once the tracking is done, then, it's more acceptable to me, to spend greater amounts of time on the minutia in the mix.

Very good points Herb
 
On the guitar end of things I enjoy new challenges .
Working on the sub atomic relationships of chords , notes, phrases , melody's and any other number of the intricate musical treasures that I have found playing the guitar has given me a meaning and purpose in my life ....   
 
 
The opposite side of the coin is sort of the main Rub I have with my alliance and association the DAW ...
 
I did have a lot of transparency using my DAW for almost 10 years  ...
I had gotten to a point where it was somewhat an extension of my music and I did consider it to be a creative outlet...
What i did not know didn't ever hold me back ...I enjoyed using the versions of SONAR I had at the time..
What changed was I wound up moving to a new place and upgrading my DAW and computers ....
Now I'm up to my eyeballs drowning in learning curve ......
 
It's been nice talking with you Herb
 

jamesg1213

kennywtelejazz
Both learning activity's seem very necessary to bring one's own personal Music creation to the next level .... 
I've been wrestling with this one myself for a long while ....
I'm curious to hear how folks around here balance both learning curves  .
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny

I don't really think I've got very far with either, and probably never will now. Just being realistic. I listen to stuff I did 7 or 8 years ago against later recordings and there isn't a huge difference, to my ears. I suppose sometime you just reach a plateau.
 

Hi James,
 
Yes , we had a good thing going back then ...
Lot's of great people to collab with and bounce musical Ideas of off...
The songs forum was super hot with some really good tunes and collabs ...
A lot of us were putting out tunes like crazy ...You were leading the charge w SMB ,  Tim and your own music ...
You still have it going on my friend I enjoy your music and guitar playing ...
 
I can't help but think that I sort of climbed into a musical rut and decorated it ...
for lack of a better way of putting it .....some of the thrill is gone ...maybe I'm just getting old and I don't feel like jumping through all the hoops it would take to get as comfortable using my DAW on the same level as I can play ...
I have always kept my playing very close to the vest because I want to do my own thing ...yet , it seems like I'm taking the hard road to pave a different unique path of self expression ...
Some of what I what I enjoy playing is not relevant in today's music bizz ...that's a choice I made ...
Any choice I have made I can always choose to modify by choosing differently ....
 
I'm glad I started the thread ...at least all this is out in the open for now ...
I'm gonna give time time to see how this plays out ....it has been nice talking with you James ..
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 

kennywtelejazz
 
Hi James,
 
Yes , we had a good thing going back then ...
Lot's of great people to collab with and bounce musical Ideas of off...
The songs forum was super hot with some really good tunes and collabs ...
A lot of us were putting out tunes like crazy ...You were leading the charge w SMB ,  Tim and your own music ...
You still have it going on my friend I enjoy your music and guitar playing ...
 
I can't help but think that I sort of climbed into a musical rut and decorated it ...
for lack of a better way of putting it .....some of the thrill is gone ...maybe I'm just getting old and I don't feel like jumping through all the hoops it would take to get as comfortable using my DAW on the same level as I can play ...
I have always kept my playing very close to the vest because I want to do my own thing ...yet , it seems like I'm taking the hard road to pave a different unique path of self expression ...
Some of what I what I enjoy playing is not relevant in today's music bizz ...that's a choice I made ...
Any choice I have made I can always choose to modify by choosing differently ....
 
I'm glad I started the thread ...at least all this is out in the open for now ...
I'm gonna give time time to see how this plays out ....it has been nice talking with you James ..
 
all the best,
 
Kenny
 

 
Thanks for that Kenny, very kind of you. It was a very creative time a few years back, you're right. Seemed to be collabs going on all the time.
 
Maybe I need to focus on doing more of that, stretching my abilities a bit by playing other styles/genres.
 
I have to admit that lately I fire up Sonar professional, and feel my creativity drain away very quickly. That certainly wasn't the case in the past.

bapu
So, I'm a month shy of 10 years in this forum and where I dove full fledged into DAW recording.
 
I'd say my engineering skills have improved from then until now. My playing skills, nah. Mainly because for every hour of playing I do I probably spend 4-5 hours at the engineering process.
 
I must agree with my mayte Jaymes though, I've probably hit my plateau in all areas of music and so now I can just enjoy the ride and try not to be too critical of the results.
 
If I was 40 or even 30, that would be a horse of a different story. I'd be pushing like mad.

ED,
 
Congrats on you upcoming 10 years here on the forum
From what I have heard over the years , I would say you have decent chops on the tech end of things .
Sure I understand the whole growth / plateau feeling ...it is only a feeling and thankfully feelings aren't facts  .
One nice thing about getting older is I have found that I have encountered many times where I felt I was not making growth or progress ...Having gotten through to the other end and looking back in hindsight the growth that took place was significant  ....I wish I knew why that was ...
nice talking w you ,
 

Starise
I thought I could juggle the two well but in reality I can't do both well at the same time. I've picked up a new instrument to learn in addition to what I already knew.
 
My intention was to do some of one and then some technical recording. I have the bent to immerse in whatever I'm doing and when I get in that groove I have a tough time pulling away from it.
 
Sad to say I've been putting lots of time into the instrument and letting my recording skills slide. I know it's the only way I'm going to be a better player. I look at the clock and two hours went by, I'm dead tired and say to myself, " I'll do the other stuff tomorrow". Tomorrow comes and I do the same thing again. I'm in a learning rut of sorts right now. It borders on an obsession.
 
On the plus side, I'm doing very well for someone who hasn't been at my instrument for more than a year. Having prior instruments and training might have helped some....but I'm nowhere near my goal yet. Progress is small and slow lately. I'm into some of the more intensive learning curves on the instrument now and it's slow progress, sometimes seems like one step forward and three steps back. Doesn't help that there are people who are years younger than me that can do what I struggle with easily...I have to remind myself they started when they were 6. By the time they're 16 they're pretty good at it.
 
I get into the same "rut" with recording. I get overly immersed in the finer points of the technicals and let my chops slide. So far I haven't realistically been able to be intensive with both at the same time. 
 
 

Hello Timothy ,
 
Thank you for your post I enjoyed reading it .
From what I have read it is my feeling that you and I have a lot in common when it comes to this type of thing ....
 
In May I picked up an 8 string guitar . I played the hell out of it until the "honeymoon" sort of ended about two weeks ago .
I enjoyed every element of the personal challenge this instrument presented me with .
During that time I tried my best to double down on learning SONAR by watching some vids I had bought from Groove 3 and doing tech specific tutorials ...
It felt like I was back in school doing my homework just to get it done so I could go out and play ....my heart just wasn't into it ....(that falls on me ) ....
My main instrument happens to be guitar yet, over the years I have gravitated to investing some of my spare change and money into other stringed instruments that are in the fretted string category that I can learn and double on ....
If anything I have become a much better guitarist as a result learning to play these instruments  ...
 
The most important musical tool I have ever used to learn anything musical by ear is a program called Transcribe
https://www.seventhstring.om/xscribe/overview.html
I strongly urge you if you have not tried this program to download the demo ....  30 days unrestricted use.
(BTW I have  no affiliation w the company ) 
 
It is my humble opinion that this program can help you catch up and learn what you need to learn fast and within your own comfort zone as a player ....
 
As far as what other people are doing out there ...younger , older , faster slower , smarter ...not smarter ...lol 
Well good for them
I'm here to do my own thing and hopefully serve to make this world a better place with my music ....
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny
 

Becoming adept at using the DAW and learning how to engineer and produce over these last twenty years as been my vocation and avocation.  And I won't deny I really like finally having all the tools I need to produce just about anything that comes into my tiny demented brain.  BUT...it has ruined my playing chops.
 
I very seldom play out, although my best friends are killer players and are constantly asking me to sit in with their groups.  And I'll admit I love being on stage and miss it terribly.  But I just can't fathom going out to some club at around 10pm...heck, that's nearly my bedtime now...and stepping back into the noise, confusion and (usually) too loud cacophany of live performance.  
 
Years ago, when I was earning my living in Nashville, I could hold my own with most.  Now I'd be embarrassed to play with any of my old bandmates and session guys.  It's my own fault, of course, I don't practice...I just produce.  Heck, I never did practice...I just played all day and all night most every day of the week.  
 
Now I'm reduced to being able to "fool" most folks either by production tricks or muscle memory licks into thinking I might be a decent player.  But those days are gone.
 

BobF
I need both.
 
Today I listened to a recording I did with Cake back in 2002.  I was surprised how much more I like my playing in that project now than I did when I abandoned it.  I also recognized right away a bazillion things I need to do on the DAW side to improve it overall.
 
I'll be reviving that one for sure.

Hi Bob ,
 
Yes it is a given that I need to do both real real bad ..
Hey , Wow ! you certainly do go back a long while around here ....2002 ....congrats .
Elder Statesman status type respect goes out too you from me ...
I know exactly what you mean when you say that you have projects / tune ideas that were abandoned due to various reasons at the time of their inception ...got a few dating back from 2005 that could sure use a little TLC .
I guess it's like the thing people usually say about mixing where it's always a good idea to get a bit of time away from a song to be able to hear it with fresh ears ....like you when i go back even that far back , I have heard things I was happy I recorded ..  I never ever record a guitar part unless I'm into it ...so on that front yeah , there are a few unexpected ideas and surprises mixed in with some real crappy place holder tracks or production disasters  
This year I did go back and redo 2 of my solo guitar tunes strictly from the DAW side ...
She Was O...F..and Gentle Gypsy L....IMHO ...they are much closer to where they should / could be ....
nice talking w you ....
 

bitflipper
We all have a finite capacity for absorbing knowledge, a limit that lowers as you age. (You 20-somethings need not feel smug about that; you've already peaked, too.)
 
The solution: eliminate the time wasters from your life. Television, video games, YouTube. Cooking your own meals. Changing your own oil. Talking to your kids. Exercise. Sex. Forum posting.
 
This, at least, is my theory.

Hello Dave ,
 
There is a lot of Wisdom in your post . Also there is a lot of humor in your post
Thank you for sharing ,
 

Slugbaby
 
Like you, i caught the tail end of the "play until you've got the songs ready, then head into a Pro studio and spend $$$ on a record/demo."
I had never wanted to use a pro to finish my music. I've always preferred to produce my own product, but only ever got to the 90% mark.  I kept thinking "remember - it's a home recording" whenever someone heard it.  
I played briefly with a pianist who was also a great engineer/producer.  When I was trying to mix my last project, i asked him for some advice and he talked me into hiring him.  I was hesitant, and it wasn't cheap (but much better than I'd expected).  We started with him mixing 2 songs, just to see if it was what I wanted.  But not only did he mix well, he gave great arrangement suggestions, added some keys, and pushed my record from my usual "90%" up to "110%."  The end product was MUCH better than I'd expected.  It's (slowly) selling online, and for the first time I can be proud of my album with no excuses - well worth the money I paid him (for all 8 songs).
 
I'll be hiring him again for my current project as soon as I find some money...  Until then i'll be listening to my underwhelming self-produced tracks.  
 
If you can swing it, and you find the right engineer/producer, it's WELL worth it!

Hi Slugbaby ,
 
It's very good to hear that you had a very good experience with the multi talented  musician you hired ....
I wish you the best of luck with your CD sales and I hope that somebody may use your songs for something like a film or any other number of uses music can provide 
Thank you for the inspiration .
 

Moshkito
Hi,
 
It's really strange ... as much as I am comfortable with computers and setting them up and fixing them, trying to learn a DAW is really difficult for me. I failed with Abelton Live (the early version 5 years ago) and then tried Music Creator, and that went down worse, and then picked up  the Sonar package ... and I'm even more lost than before ... probably because I am partially blind, and the screen has too many things in it, for me to be able to learn what to do with them at the same time. In this sense, the plain screen a la Office and such, with just the small icons is easier for me, because I can at least write down something and then come back to it and enhance it ... I haven't even been able to do that on a DAW, yet, comfortably, and trying to get some help has been worse than pulling your teeth with dental floss.
 
Something simpler ... is that a lot to ask?
 
As for learning an instrument, yeah ... I would like to get my DAW skills up some, and two classes so far have not helped crystallize anything whatsoever, probably because I was turned off by having to learn how to do a DJ thing. I wanted to plug in an instrument, record it and then add to it, for example. Simple as it comes. However, seeing some software fail at doing something that you imagine that it specifically says it can be done, is worse. I have had major issues with IKT and their software that supposedly allows two things to be used at the same time, and the midi channels are not available ... they are gray'd out! And their support and anyone else? Worse!
 
I will likely end up in keyboards full blast ... but I'm having a hard time getting past the stage one ... trying to translate what I hear, and would like to do, and not be able to translate it with the things I have, and perhaps some help from the outside in helping translate some of the things I have in my head.
 
For example ... might be simple for someone, but I have not been able to do it ... play one note and extend it to infinity ... or play 20 notes and have them repeat for a while, for example ... dumb things that have been around for 30/35 years, but I'm not able to find help on it.
 
I'm not even sure I have the right pieces to do something close to what I imagine, but only an outside person would be able to see that and help me see these things better, or clearer.

Hi Pedro ,
 
You are a smart guy and I do get where you are coming from ...
Learning how to use a  DAW efficiently with any level of creatively takes a lot of work and commitment
 
Have you started specific threads asking for help on the forum ?
ex, setting up your sound card , setting up your midi , recording audio , editing audio , recording midi ,editing midi 
inserting synths , inserting plugs , various views and how to work in them ...
importing audio , midi , video ....exporting audio , midi , video .....
 
If you have tried those things and you still feel stuck . Then  it sounds like to me that you just need a little one on one time with somebody to help you along with the basics of using SONAR (or fill in the blank for the chosen DAW )
 
hang in there .....help may be closer than you think .......
 
all the best,
 
Kenny

yorolpal
Becoming adept at using the DAW and learning how to engineer and produce over these last twenty years as been my vocation and avocation.  And I won't deny I really like finally having all the tools I need to produce just about anything that comes into my tiny demented brain.  BUT...it has ruined my playing chops.
 
I very seldom play out, although my best friends are killer players and are constantly asking me to sit in with their groups.  And I'll admit I love being on stage and miss it terribly.  But I just can't fathom going out to some club at around 10pm...heck, that's nearly my bedtime now...and stepping back into the noise, confusion and (usually) too loud cacophany of live performance.  
 
Years ago, when I was earning my living in Nashville, I could hold my own with most.  Now I'd be embarrassed to play with any of my old bandmates and session guys.  It's my own fault, of course, I don't practice...I just produce.  Heck, I never did practice...I just played all day and all night most every day of the week.  
 
Now I'm reduced to being able to "fool" most folks either by production tricks or muscle memory licks into thinking I might be a decent player.  But those days are gone.
 

Nice post yorolpal ,
 
Yes , learning how to use all the " tools correctly "  stuff like the equalizers , compressors, 3 rd party synths , plugs and each and every self contained VST dodad that can make an interesting sound is absolutely mind blowing to me ...
IMHO , it takes just as much consistency and creativity to produce satisfying results using those tools as it does to play a musical instrument well...
I got the ears , but not the chops in that particular musical environment ...
I honestly do respect you and the people that can go there ....some day I wish to get a lot better in that area ..
 
all the best ,
 
Kenny 
 

I started playing guitar at 19 (way to late, I know), and started with digital recording when I was 27 (Pro Audio 9). 
I knew early that I didn't have what it takes to make it as a pro guitarist, but that doesn't stop me from playing one in my studio 
I also tried to balance playing and producing for some years, and ended up not getting better at anything.
Lately I have tried to focus more on mixing / producing, and it feels like it has helped my inspiration, and joy of playing guitar again. I even took up drumming two years ago, to have another source of inspiration.
It seems like I need (fresh) input to keep inspired. And the more inspired I get, the more and better I seem to perform over time.
All the best.

Interesting thread Kenny. Since day 1 of this DAW thing, I've relied on treating it like the old analog studios of old. I've yet to try and learn midi or even one of the drum programs. I knew how to mix and record going in. It was just a matter of using a mouse to turn the knobs on plugins instead of my fingers.
 
I do remember one thing from when I started down this DAW road. When I got my first DAW (Guitar Tracks) I hadn't played live in a few years and my playing/practicing routine consisted of playing along with CDs. When I started recording I was shocked at how sloppy my playing had become from that. Of course, being the knuckle head I am, I jumped right in doing collabs with the likes of James, Larry Hansen and Mark Wessels. When you get tracks from those guys, you quickly realize you better step up your game. So thanks for that guys.