Yep, agree completely.  Life has taught me, however, that what pleases me is very often different than what pleases the masses.  Soooo, I look for songs that make me think and are musically masterful and suberbly engineered (Jackson Browne's "For Taking the Trouble") as well as songs that just plain old make me feel good and appeal to the masses (Kenny Chesney's "Down the Road").

My point was, essentially, to the purists.  Lighten up, Francis...

To your first question Danny, ol pal, all I can tell you is that as I've grown as player, engineer and producer of music my critical listening skills and bias have increased exponentially.  And sometimes I'm grateful for it...and sometimes it bothers the h-e-double-hockey-sticks outta me.  I occasionally miss the idiotic and unlearned naivete I had as a kid when "Wild Thing" or "Crimson & Clover" or "Hanky Panky" or a jillion other inanitys used to fill me with joy and abandon.  But, on reflection, I wouldn't go back for love nor money.  I've earned my disdain fair and square.  And I had to gain my knowledge through trial and error, perserverence and practise, practise practise.  And I still didn't get to Carnegie Hall. 

Which brings me to your second question regarding the "viral video".  I don't know if you mean the "Friday" girl singer ( I think Mike alluded to her) but I just discovered that whole milieu day before yesterday...honest.  I just happened to link to her video due to a headline about how "singer not prepared for hurtful comments" or some such.  First let me say frankly that I did not think much of the song at all.  Perhaps it's perfectly suited for its intended demographic...but that would not be me.  Second, of course, the young lady in question cannot sing well...or we don't know if she can...due to the now old hat "Auto-tuned" production.  But all that aside I was impressed by the professional video and musical production.  I figured she was just the latest female Beiber.  Then I found out a little backstory and discovered about "The Ark".  Brilliant.  Absolutely brilliant.  For about two thousand dollars any kid...and I mean ANY kid...whose parents are willing to fork over two large can be a "star" on youtube...or think they are.  I must've linked to about a dozen girls, most all about 13-15 years old...average looks...no discernable talent whatever...with videos and songs just like the "Friday" girl.  You can't imagine how giddy it made me feel.  I laughed so hard  I thought I was gonna choke.  You've got to hand it to those Ark guys.  Kudos to them. 

And as to the "hateful" comments that any of those kids have to endure I would say two things.  One, I'm sorry you have to hear that.  And, two, guess what...you have to hear that.  If you put it up for scrutiny...then you will be scrutinized.  If you are scrutinized by your peers...then prepared to be boiled in oil.  If you cannot at least take the time to become proficient at your craft or to make the most of your inate talent (if by chance, you have any) then at least be mature enough to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.  Because, as far as I can see, their fortune is about as outrageous as I've ever seen.
Ooops...sorry Mike...didn't see your post (the one DIRECTLY ABOVE this one)

I actually liked the song except for the embarrassing use of the English language toward the middle. There's actually been a lot of hit's using the C-Am-F-G type of chord progression. Girls Just Want To Have Fun by Cindy Lauper comes to mind off the top of my head. Dyer Maker by Zepplin is another, not to mention 50% of the songs from the mid 50's through the early 60's.

I posted about a viral video that million's of others were talking about and I was just curious how it could get so huge so fast. I never said anything about the girl as an artist, her sexual preference, or anything along those lines ... as a matter of fact, I said nothing at all. I only posted a link to the video and asked how it could get so many hits on youtube.

Mike, I won't speak for Severed here, but I can relate to what he's saying about veterans. Sometimes they just ignore that in certain instances, there are some really horrible live presentations that are not very god-like. The other side of the coin is the older cats from the 60's and 70's. Here's an example. A kid I teach guitar to is incredible. In his teens, well mannered, really great kid...but like me, he tells it like it is when he speaks. He had a guy telling him to check out Jeff Beck because Beck is God. The kid checked out Beck and didn't feel he was even a god with a little g. The live performances the kid saw and gave links to, were really bad. I share the same feelings as the kid.

I respect Beck, I think he was innovative, had his place, but when you compare how things have evolved today as a guitarist, it's really not that impressive. That's not meant to say every guitar player needs to play 300 notes per second to be considered good. What it means is, there is quite a bit of slop playing by the older cats to where the fans of these guys will stick up for them to the death and will ignore the issues. We guitarists of today come from a different school man. It doesn't make us better, but most of us are cleaner. Some people like a bit of sloppiness...we that are into cleanliness and execution on our instruments, do not appreciate sloppiness to the point of where it literally sounds like the man is lost and totally out of key.

I was born and raised on Brian May and Eddie Van Halen. Though EVH to me is the most inspirarational rock guitarist of MY time, I will not sit here and defend his flaws nor will I deny that I feel I have taken what I've learned from him to another level. I'm not saying a better level, but I've gone in a different direction giving my own spin on what I've learned. What Ed played then, is no longer challenging to guitar players of TODAY. This doesn't mean he's not great, it means he's innovated, he's had his time and there are cooler things to do on the instrument that should at least be appreciated by others. Instead, they bash due to bias just like the 60's and 70's inspired guitar players will bash me for how I play because I don't sound like Page or Hendrix. This has been my experience with the older cats. I know some of them are just heavily biased, others are jealous because they really wish they could play cooler stuff, but end up sounding like Neal Young when playing lead guitar. Though that's not a bad thing, you don't bash a guy like Steve Vai when you play lead like Young. It's all about acceptance. Accept that a player has some technical prowess and has command of his instrument. You don't have to like it, you don't have to learn it, but you do have to respect it and accept it in my opinion....not bash it or those that play in that style.

You made a mention of BB King. His bragging rights are more for his innovation as well as how long he's been at it man. Seriously, though he helped to pioneer something grand and should be respected for it, I really have a problem listening to that same blues lick in every song for 50 years and would find it really sad for someone that may attack me for stating the obvious. It's great, it helped us to be where we are today...but those that decide to play like Gary Moore, shouldn't be compared to BB King nor should they be bashed for not playing that way. 

On the instrumentalist thing you talked about....maybe I didn't explain it right as I know I'm one that kinda commented negatively towards them. Here's my take with a bit more detail. I'm a bit musically schooled. So I know both sides of the fence on this. The muso's I know seem to think that because they can play like a demon while reading notes that were scored and not created by them, that they are higher up the ladder than the rest of us. And, you get bashed for not being into what they are into because "you're not intelligent enough to *GET* it." This bothers me man, it truly does. I don't need to know how to read music to express my heart and write it. I wrote songs before I could read music and knew any theory. Some of those people can't play anything unless it's something they've memorized or they have their sheet music in front of them. Again I say, though I respect that person, a musician should also be able to write. Isn't a "musician" the complete package? If you play an instrument and just play the notes you read, aren't you more of an instrumentalist?

Then you have the Jazz guys saying the same thing and acting elite. Just because my diatonic ears cannot accept "out of the box" and to me it simply sounds "out of key", I'm an idiot that cannot comprehend the style because I'm not intelligent enough. This is also unfair. Granted, I know what passing tones are, I know what tension points are as well...but to my ears, at times it seriously sounds like someone just playing any notes they want either in chromatic form or in some scale form, and they end up on the right note. I know it's more than that and understand some of the theory...but I'm telling you how it sounds to me as a common listener. So right away, I'm a dumbass because I can't hear the melody in some of that stuff. There are incredible jazz pieces that showcase beautiful melodies yet still maintain tension points...I have no problem with that. It's some of the super pure stuff that just seems out for the sake of out that bothers me. But, I accept it...I'm not bashing it. It's not something I find pleasant to listen to other than when I want to borrow some of those tension points and chromatic passages...or the cool arpeggios.

What all these people seem to forget also is...if all the birds in the forrest chirped the same song, oh what a boring place this world would be. No one should be annihilated for evolving on an instrument or bringing a style to the forefront. How can another artist not share in the happiness and success of another brother artist? Why must there always be this competition? This is what is sad to me. If you make your living doing something you love and believe in and you aren't huring anyone in the process, God bless you...I approve no matter what style you play or what strange noises you make. :) 

yorolpal: great comments there. Would you believe YOUR post actually has altered my thinking? Here I was hoping I'd be the one to maybe alter a few....but you hit me pretty hard with that. Especially this...

"Second, of course, the young lady in question cannot sing well...or we don't know if she can...due to the now old hat "Auto-tuned" production.  But all that aside I was impressed by the professional video and musical production.  I figured she was just the latest female Beiber.  Then I found out a little backstory and discovered about "The Ark".  Brilliant.  Absolutely brilliant.  For about two thousand dollars any kid...and I mean ANY kid...whose parents are willing to fork over two large can be a "star" on youtube...or think they are.  I must've linked to about a dozen girls, most all about 13-15 years old...average looks...no discernable talent whatever...with videos and songs just like the "Friday" girl.  You can't imagine how giddy it made me feel.  I laughed so hard  I thought I was gonna choke.  You've got to hand it to those Ark guys.  Kudos to them."

Though I think I had the best of intentions on how I laid out my comments regarding this, what you say there makes me totally rethink things and laugh too. It makes me wonder what I've doing wasting so much time trying to be good at something when all I needed to do was hire the Ark guys instead of the ARC guys! LMAO!!!!! Thanks for giving me your insight...seriously, that was a great read my friend.

Ed: Man, this was a powerful post too! Thanks for sharing. The key point in your post (all of it actually lol) that really made me go "hmmmm...this is powerful" was:

"Many mentioned Bob Dylan. I happen to have loved his voice from when he was a squeaky young kid all way to his squeaky old man voice (and everything in between). Do I know that it is technically wrong. Yes I do. Do I care? Nope."

The good thing is, you know when something may not be technically right...and you have no bones admitting that. Your final though of "do I care? Nope" is just pricess because it shows the acceptance and truth I just wish people would show forth. Ok, Dylan is squeaky, Ozzy has a dude singing with him behind the stage....we can go on and on...we know some things ain't technically right, but we don't care. :) I hate the solo in Cin Girl by Neal Young...but I can't think of anything else that could replace that 1 note dadadada da dadadadada da solo and make the song any better. Poor Paul singing Twist and Shout at the top of his range and not quite making it high enough on that song...definitely a bit of an issue...but the passion, aggression of the times...who cares? It helped to make the song better. But my point is...we can still accept the flaws and aren't ignoring them. :) Great post Ed...and thanks again every one. I'm so digging this discussion. :)

Danny, with all due respect, you seem to be upset when "older cats" don't get your music, and criticize it.

But then you seem to criticize Beck, B. B. King etc., when you obviously have no clue what makes that music so special.

Not saying you have to like Beck, King (or whoever), but it's your loss if can't appreciate it. Of course the same goes for EVH, Vai or any of the others, new or old. Not everyone can or will appreciate every form of music, and of course there's nothing wrong with saying, "that stuff doesn't do anything for me". But it doesn't make any sense to criticize music we don't really understand.

Drew, it's in the manner in which they attack that bothers me man. It doesn't bother me when people are not fond of what I do. I'm saying, an older cat doesn't have to push that "so and so is a guitar idol" at me while downing what I'm doing. I didn't think I criticized Beck or BB..I'm just trying to say that for those that try to ram it down my throat or the throat of one of my students, that is how I would respond. There is no reason for someone to bash on a style. I'm not bashing BB's style...I'm saying that after 50 years, that one scale is old to me being a guitarist of TODAY. It's not something that aspiring guitarists today will probably consider god-like. They have the right to feel that way. It's not a bash, it's the times.

See how you are feeling the need to be a bit defensive? I love loads of guitar players. If you made the comments I made about Beck and BB about my players, I'd not feel the need to justify anything because if you told me you felt EVH was sloppy live at times or you were tired of his tapping....you would be completely in the right to state that. Would I consider it a bash? Not at all man. See, this is the exact thing I'm talking about. As soon as I say something remotely out of the norm about one of those old players, I'm told I'm criticizing. I'm not meaning this towards you, but this is what happens every time in real life situations. Like you are never allowed to mention that these players have flaws. It's just supposed to be acceptable. To me, it just isn't. If I state some of their live performances were sloppy...and they aren't to you (or maybe they are and that doesn't bother you) being a guitarist, can you really hold it against me because it does bother me? See my point at all? Honest I'm not trying to be confrontational.

Totally agree with your comment about understanding. But in a sense, this is a tough call. If you are learning to play an instrument TODAY, if something someone else loves and feels is above all, and you listen to it and do not feel that way, would you still really have the desire to learn about it or understand it? See my point Drew? Now put yourself in the body of a teen that is learning. They have a short attention span these days. You usually don't get too many shots at winning them over. LOL! Should someone have to feel the need to research what YOU consider special if it's not appealing to them out of the gate and then be accused of "having no clue?" That's the stuff I'm talking about. Again man, I respect them for their innovation as we'd not have what we have without them. But to just ignore the flaws and call it great while calling someone clueless for not feeling as you do....well, that's what I find a bit sad bro.

My crits against Beck and BB are really not meant to sound like they are against them personally. It's like someone trying to ram religion down your throat when you are really not a believer. You may sound a bit harsh in your delivery towards God, but you are probably more upset with those that tried to push something on you as "great" when you didn't feel it was all that. Does this make sense at all?

See Drew, the thing to keep in mind here is "shock value". When you are young and experimenting...finding yourself etc, something is either going to win you over, or it isn't. Or, sometime in the future, your taste may change, right? When I heard Beck and many had praised him like mad to me, I thought he was cool but it just didn't hit me as hard as I had hoped. I loved the bar tricks and the tone. I like his playing more in songs than instrumentals. But to me man, for where I was at the time of my playing when I was introduced to him, it wasn't a style of guitar that did anything for me that made me want to learn it or investigate into it further. I liked it but it wasn't the player *I* wanted to sound like or become. I'm not meaning to bash him like you may think. The same with BB. My problem is more with the ignorance of others that will immediately bash on a guy like my student or even myself because we do not play like the older guys or because we don't share their "idol" opinions. 

Am I truly out of line for stating something is not as god-like as people make it out to be TO ME? That has nothing to do with my appreciation for the player bro, honest. All I'm saying is I find it hard to swallow that because I may not share the same view, the style I chose gets a beating. "All you fast players are all alike" said the man that can barely play barre chords and has no dexterity. Am I bashing him or stating the truth? Or "you guys that use extreme gain need to just grab an amp and turn it up" said the man that has never had the chance to try the rig I play through....but I've tried his and it wasn't my thing. Does this make sense at all?

I do find myself listening to music differently than I did before I started recording. 

I have obtained some old, very hard to find music that I was looking for for at least 20 years.  Thanks to the internet I found it, and once I listened I couldn't believe it was the same band (it was).  My memory of how good it was didn't match my new listening skills and I was amazed at how crudely it was performed and recorded.

I have bought most of the CD's from people that post in the songs forum that have them for sale.  I much more enjoy listening to their CD's than I did listening to the same song in the song's forum.  The reason is that in the forum, I am listening specifically with a critical ear.  When I listen the CD, I'm at home drinking a brew and grilling on the deck and can appreciate the music for it's value.

As far as anyone making fun of some autotuned song posted by a teenager, I agree with those here that have commented that if you post it, you better be ready for any criticism that comes with that territory.

As for me personally - right, wrong, fairly, unfairly or otherwise when it comes to hip hop, rap and the autotuning craze - I hate it with a passion.  I always will.  I don't see the artistic creative value in it.  I am bored to tears of everyone trying to show their "unique talents" - just like everybody else.  That's my critical ear talking.  (or maybe it's just the grey in the beard).

Danny, I just thought you were a bit misplaced in some of your criticisms. For instance, if you are looking for harmonic and tonal variety, BB King (or any classic or traditional blues artist) is just not the place to look.


And as an example of my point about the problem of criticizing something not really understood:

Consider a piece of music written to be deliberately dissonant. It could be Stravinsky, it could be free jazz, it could be some King Crimson bits, or whatever. Many people will criticize this music precisely because of its dissonance, which of course misses the point entirely. They don't have to like it, but there's nothing "wrong" with it - that's exactly what it's supposed to be like.


But, to change topics once again, it occurs to me that adults mocking a 13 yr. old kid for any reason whatsoever is a terrible reflection on society. Just because she puts herself on the interweb doesn't make her "fair game". She's 13. If her peers mock her, that's one thing. But adults should find someone their own size to pick on.

drewfx1


I'm a lover of music first and listen as such. I've heard too many "audiophile demo discs" featuring exquisite recordings of boring, lifeless music. I would take a flawed live recording of a great performance over that stuff ten times out of ten. 

In terms of "cheese", I think in any commercial art form there is a conflict between the "commercial" side, which focuses on entertaining the audience, and the "artistic" side, which focuses solely on the artist's self-expression. The "artist" will always dismiss those who focus on "pleasing the masses".

And to a certain extent, I think it's fair to have a lower opinion of music that aims only to please, and not challenge or enlighten, the masses. Cheesy music is the same as dumb, predictable action movies and network TV shows, or fast food. Generally, I prefer music that aims for the stars (and perhaps misses by a bit) over music that scores a direct hit on a fish in a barrel.

Having said that, I enjoy the occasional predictable movie, or a trip to the drive through window. And maybe shooting that fish in the barrel can be fun too...

I agree with the first part of your post Drew, but even musiciens have to earn a living?

Yike(s)

alexoosthoek

drewfx1


I'm a lover of music first and listen as such. I've heard too many "audiophile demo discs" featuring exquisite recordings of boring, lifeless music. I would take a flawed live recording of a great performance over that stuff ten times out of ten. 

In terms of "cheese", I think in any commercial art form there is a conflict between the "commercial" side, which focuses on entertaining the audience, and the "artistic" side, which focuses solely on the artist's self-expression. The "artist" will always dismiss those who focus on "pleasing the masses".

And to a certain extent, I think it's fair to have a lower opinion of music that aims only to please, and not challenge or enlighten, the masses. Cheesy music is the same as dumb, predictable action movies and network TV shows, or fast food. Generally, I prefer music that aims for the stars (and perhaps misses by a bit) over music that scores a direct hit on a fish in a barrel.

Having said that, I enjoy the occasional predictable movie, or a trip to the drive through window. And maybe shooting that fish in the barrel can be fun too...

I agree with the first part of your post Drew, but even musiciens have to earn a living?

Good point. I didn't really mean to disparage commercial music, as much as to distinguish it from music with more artistic sensibilities. Because if you try to compare the two, the artistes tend to get really, really ticked off. And to point out that aiming for something higher is worthy of some admiration.

Kroneborge


You put on some arts bull crap, and I turn it off.  

Spider bull, spider bull, does whatever a spider bull does.

Hey, I found my new chorus.

"I really have a problem listening to that same blues lick in every song for 50 years and would find it really sad for someone that may attack me for stating the obvious."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyuSDajZTNo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUaevnP1LLg

Danny, I find it sad to think that you think that after 62 years and over 15,000 performances that a guy like BB King has been selling out shows, and putting SMILES on peoples faces, with the same blues lick.

The blues is a idiom, a play ground to have fun on. You can play the blues about a hundred million ways.

I'll bet Gary Moore would have agreed with me.

all the best,
mike

mike_mccue


"I really have a problem listening to that same blues lick in every song for 50 years and would find it really sad for someone that may attack me for stating the obvious."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyuSDajZTNo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUaevnP1LLg

Danny, I find it sad to think that you think that after 62 years and over 15,000 performances that a guy like BB King has been selling out shows, and putting SMILES on peoples faces, with the same blues lick.

The blues is a idiom, a play ground to have fun on. You can play the blues about hundred million ways.

I'll bet Gary Moore would have agreed with me.

all the best,
mike

At Danny
That would be subjective so somebody may really attack you and you can't prevent that.

At Mike
Then again, it's the same thing with Metal (I can only say metal because it is something i can say i KNOW about fairly well). Honestly, we've recycled ALOT of riffs from previous music, and somebody may say that he has a problem listening to death metal, because to him they ALL sound the same, but to the perspective of a death metal listener, it would be the opposite. So maybe that's where Danny went wrong. Maybe he isn't just a REAL blues listener, so he really still can't stand it's "repetitiveness" in his opinion.

So to that standpoint, that's where "Listen with audience ears" comes in play.

While you should know before you criticize, most of the critics in the first place don't bother to know, so that's what we should accept. Bottom line, it's all down to personal preference.