Listening as a common person vs. an engineer and your thoughts on "cheese"?

Hopefully this makes for a cool thread. I have a few questions and a few opinions to share. Hopefully we can keep this civil because I'm going to touch on a few things that actually bother me about people as well. I'm sure my opinion may bother some of you. But please try to read it in the context in which it was meant without bias. :) Before I get to that part though, what is your take on this?
 
Do you guys ever have a problem listening to music as a common listener/music lover now that you have some engineering skills under your belts?
 
Do you ever feel some of your favorite songs you loved years ago are sometimes ruined because you can't stand the sounds of certain instruments in those songs because you know what to listen for now?
 
I've had issues like this and literally had to train myself to shut the engineer/producer in me completely down. Knowing about this stuff is sometimes more a curse than a blessing. I'd listen to old albums I used to love years ago, and cringe at what I thought was top notch production. Now that I know how to listen and what to listen for, these flaws jump right out at me to where I couldn't enjoy the material any more. Have you guys ever experienced this at all? I've since learned to control it by keeping myself focused. When I listen to something now, I try to never re-paint that picture in my mind. It is what it is...I either like the song or I don't. It took me quite a few years to learn how to control this. I was just curious if anyone else shared in my pain. LOL!
 
Ok, next question and this is where if we're not careful, this thing could heat up a bit. I'll try to tread softly here, but will also express my opinion as professional as possible.
 
"The Viral Video"
 
So there was a thread I saw on here where quite a few guys were bashing on a girl that posted a video using auto-tune like crazy that went viral. I've read bad comments all over the place about this video/song and sat here just shaking my head. I'm shaking my head because my views are the complete opposite of those who have taken a negative stand towards the girl, the song and the video. Personally, I think it's brilliant and the hook is huge.
 
Part of my question here is...do you guys ever separate the artist in you and just listen to a fun, happy song and move with it and its melody? Regardless of the Auto-tuning and all the lyrics you may be laughing at or cringing at, wouldn't you agree that someone came up with a pretty nifty hook?
 
Ok, it's not my style of music...but can we really be hard on those that have found a way to be successful in this field? Does anyone know how hard it really is to make money as an artist these days? If I told you guys I had a big time producer that was interested in 100 songs like what that girl did, and I was willing to pay you $2500 per song, would you still choose to bash stuff like this and stick to your own style of music while negatively talking about another persons success?
 
I've never understood this in musicians to be honest. Why do people feel the need to bash another for writing a hook that may be considered "sell-out"? To me, there is no such thing as "sell out" unless you are doing something you absolutely hate for the sake of money. If you had the choice to fly your day job desk vs. writing songs for a living that had bubble gum hooks...which would you really choose? Be honest. If bubble gum hooks aren't your thing, ok that's completely acceptable. But it just bothers me when I hear really good musicians that are doing nothing in this world, talk about others that have found their niche so to speak.
 
Is it jealousy? Is it because these good musicians are so theoretical with their instruments that they have no feel and can't write a memorable hook that could land a country? Is it because they think it's too easy? In my opinion, a hook that sells to the masses is NOT easy. If it were, everyone would be stars.
 
Why do people refer to hooks or fun cliche lyrics as "cheese"? Why is it so bad for a heavy metal band to turn a bit more pop and reach out to a different audience? These things bother me because I know how hard it is to try and make a buck in this business. Anyone that can do that, my hat goes off to them. If it's so easy and full of cheese, I'd like to see the naysayers write a few hooks and sell them. Trust me, any of you that have serious publishing going on in your worlds, know "the spotters" are out there. I've sold a few songs to some big people that were not the commercial rock/metal stuff I normally write. It felt great and it beats driving a truck for a living or flying a desk at a job I absolutely hate that just makes me good money. Who's the real sell-out? ;)
 
The other thing I really liked about the girl's video was...if you acted like that where I live, you and your whole school would be considered "gay". Kudos to her and her friends for really enjoying themselves. I thought it was delivered properly, she dressed like a little young lady, though they mention "party" there was no alcohol or people actually "partying" other than fun fun fun. It reminded me of how things would be in a present Brady Bunch world. If you think about that realistically, I'm glad I was a kid at THAT time instead of being a kid right now. If you think about it even MORE realistically, what world would you rather your kids grow up in....this one or the Brady Bunch? You know my answer....Marcia Marcia Marcia for life. LOL! :) I thought the whole thing was great...the hook, the use of auto-tune and who ever came up with it and produced it.
 
From a musician standpoint, ok, we know the answer there. Most of us die-hard, instrument playing fools will not see much beauty in a presentation like this other than the attractive young lady singing who I'd be pretty proud of if she was my daughter whether people like the song, its message, the video or whatever else. The poor girl is getting death threats about that vid for cryin out loud.
 
But who are we to question how another decides to share "their art"? Why must be we be so harsh? No one was killed, it sure did look like fun and something I'd be wanting to do at 14 if my peers wouldn't have beaten me up for being "too happy". I just don't get it.
 
Hearing about all this the way *I* have delivered it, have your thoughts on this changed any? What ARE your thoughts now that you've heard a different side to the story? Can you understand where I'm coming from at all? Do we really need to bash stuff like this or any form of musical art? Can't we just accept it? Thoughts guys? Thanks for reading. :)

Danny I'm not a good enough engineer to have that problem. I have
wondered what music sounds like to people that aren't musicians.

When I listen to music or watch music video's the first thing I do is
realize whether or not I like it. Genre doesn't matter nor does production
technique's at that time. I should add media type or live production too.
Naturally if I don't enjoy it I don't spend time with it.
If it is something I like and I dig deeper, it's only to see if it's something
that I can do or add to my arsenal. I don't waste my time or energy with
"knocking" others productions or the way they use "tools".

When somebody state's that they think this or that about using V-vocal, for instance,
that is of no value to me. I really don't care what they think about it or what
they think about the person using it. It's just a statement of no value to me.
However, if they talk of what was used and how that person used it, it may be
of interest. But really, if you tell me you don't like that effect or people using it, what
good is that to me?

If people recording music are not "true" musicians they know it. And when
they're in the room with "true" musicians everyone in the room knows it.
I don't care what they are until they're in the room with me. That is when I
will determine if I consider them a musician.
And no, I'm not the type of musician to confront them. I do not find enjoyment
in stating my opinion that may hurt another or myself.
The determination is only a natural process based on one's knowledge and
that may leave a lot of room for a very wrong determination.

I'm not certain that I can say I know exactly where you are coming from but
I can say that you have not changed my way of thinking.

Why do people feel the need to bash another for writing a hook that may be considered "sell-out"?    
 Is it jealousy?
 Is it because these good musicians are so theoretical with their instruments that they have no feel and can't write a memorable hook that could land a country? 
Is it because they think it's too easy?   
Why do people refer to hooks or fun cliche lyrics as "cheese"? 
Why is it so bad for a heavy metal band to turn a bit more pop and reach out to a different audience? 
 Who's the real sell-out? ;)

Why do people feel the need to bash another for writing a hook that may be considered "sell-out"?   Well it's ego, pride, jealousy. All the stuff that's been happening since man walked the earth. Also, if the song is a particular style that a person doesn't like AND it's making money....the worse the bashing gets. It's human nature, again...ego pride, jealousy. I think most people don't understand how pride and ego get in the way things. We all have HUGE Prides and EGO's even if you don't think you do you do. Especially if your a musician. It gets in the way of everything. You're question is one of them there things it gets in the way of. "We didn't start the fire it was always burning since the word's been turning" - Billy Joel - Smart man 


Is it jealousy?  In part yeah ..




 Is it because these good musicians are so theoretical with their instruments that they have no feel and can't write a memorable hook that could land a country?  I am not sure what you mean... could land a country? But in terms of musicians being theoretical and have no feel...... I dunno - most of the musicians on here come in every shape in size I've ever seen. We hit the entire spectrum from average musicians like me - to awesome ones - to ones not so good that your just polite too ... there all here and there in these forums - and I think its cool - -all these different people here --  whatever country  they land in or however bad or not so good they feel music or play technically 



Is it because they think it's too easy? Music never came easy for me. Always had to work at it. I use to get jealous and have had my ego and pride bruised. Then I guess I just grew up and got over it. I like teaching music so its what I do.  And yeah.... sure Louier Louie is an easy song to play. But "Dizzy Fingers" By Les Paul is hard. But I think with enough practice I can get it. But music sure aint easy all the time for me and probably most. 


  
Why do people refer to hooks or fun cliche lyrics as "cheese"? Oh MAN! I call it cheeze! i use to run a motown 10 peice wedding band horns and front singers. We we're the cheeziest! Man cheese is FUN!. Anyone whop says playing cheese songs like Play That Funky Music White Boy.....Heat Wave - at weddings - just doesnt get it man. how can that not be fun to play and a barrel of laughs? And the yo get paid for it! man if your in that boat of cheeze = bad - you just dont get it -- Like Gene Simmons once said - "people who don't like ABBA just don't get it"






Why is it so bad for a heavy metal band to turn a bit more pop and reach out to a different audience?  It's not in my opinion. Fun stuff to watch and listen! 




 Who's the real sell-out? I dunno 





Those were fun to answer - Thanks Danny!! 

rhynosynth


I'd have to believe that most of the haters (not all) are teenagers wrapped up in thier own musical culture and hopefully will grow to respect others tastes. I'm thinking not too many 40 year olds are making death threats related to autotune. 
 

 

In the metal scene, it's opposite. Most of the purists and elitists are the older aged men, who consider their status as being the pioneers. If your brand of metal isn't kvlt or tr00 (metal linggo meaning real and true), you'll instantly be called a poser regardless of your talent, and regardless if you have a future in music and they don't.

Classic black metal musicians call the new wave of black metal posers because they have good quality, and to become true black metal according to them, you have to have **** quality.

Sometimes the 'underground' thing gets a little out of hand and plain stupid.

I think it's a shame however, that it seems OK to get a random good-looking girl or guy and auto-tune them instead of searching for one who can sing, but I suppose that started with the dawning of MTV, when suddenly everyone felt the need to be easy on the eye. Before that, singles could be bought without knowing what the artist looked like, indeed there was a time in the '70's when several UK top ten tunes had the same singer and producers, just different names. I was 'bigging-up' this tune recently, as an example of a great pop song;

^^^
this

 
Hearing about all this the way *I* have delivered it, have your thoughts on this changed any? What ARE your thoughts now that you've heard a different side to the story? Can you understand where I'm coming from at all? Do we really need to bash stuff like this or any form of musical art? Can't we just accept it? Thoughts guys? Thanks for reading. :)

Yes, i agree about respect, and i can see your point of view.

I also posted there, but my reactions were due to thinking WHY it had so many views. Even though i highly dislike Justin Bieber, Ke$ha or who ever is dominating in todays music, it had ALOT more view-to-time ratio than it's competitors, or if not, the same even if IMO it didn't have much of a positive impact. So it must have been infamous for something. As i've said, you know when a hit song, regardless how cheesy or corny or what ever term, when you hear it, and this happened to be an unlikely entry for it IMO, and judging by the numbers of people that really don't find it great, i'm not on the minority, and not because i'm bashing on purpose.

SeveredVesper

Hearing about all this the way *I* have delivered it, have your thoughts on this changed any? What ARE your thoughts now that you've heard a different side to the story? Can you understand where I'm coming from at all? Do we really need to bash stuff like this or any form of musical art? Can't we just accept it? Thoughts guys? Thanks for reading. :)

Yes, i agree about respect, and i can see your point of view.

I also posted there, but my reactions were due to thinking WHY it had so many views. Even though i highly dislike Justin Bieber, Ke$ha or who ever is dominating in todays music, it had ALOT more view-to-time ratio than it's competitors, or if not, the same even if IMO it didn't have much of a positive impact. So it must have been infamous for something. As i've said, you know when a hit song, regardless how cheesy or corny or what ever term, when you hear it, and this happened to be an unlikely entry for it IMO, and judging by the numbers of people that really don't find it great, i'm not on the minority, and not because i'm bashing on purpose.

SV: I'm sorry if you felt I may have singled out anyone in that other thread for bashing. Reading my post, it does kinda imply that but it really wasn't my intention. I look at things this way. If someone finds a way to make money at this, I have to praise it because it's really not easy. (I dig Bieber by the way. Talented kid.) Secondly, there are 4 types of people that I have found.
 
1. The musician: To me a musician is someone that not only is a good player on their instrument, but a player/writer that accepts all things music no matter what style it may be. The word is powerful to me and not everyone that plays an instrument should use it so freely. Musician to me in one sentence..."all things music with diversity and acceptance".
 
2. The listener: They listen, the are sometimes music lovers, sometimes bashers. For the most part, this type of person makes of "the common folks" that buy music. Good or bad, they hold more clout than any musician because most musicians don't buy the amount of music a music lover buys. We are too busy making our own. :)
 
3. The instrumentalist: These people (forgive me for saying this if any of you fall into this category) annoy me. That have this elitist mentality that just wreaks of "because I know theory, you suck." Most of these people can't write a song to save their lives. Granted, they are impressive on their instrument but they have to understand that some of us use our instruments as writing tools, not a sports competition. They play for different reasons than we do and try to push their snobby opinions on the rest of the world when in all reality they have failed to realize....you are NOT a musician just because you play an instrument good, know theory or can sight read. That makes you the equal to someone that can read a book and execute what the notation tells you to play. I respect it, but there is nothing elite about it for them to take the stands they take against others. How you choose to spend your time and money musically speaking, is up to you. How I spend mine is up to me. We should all be accepted that way.
 
4. The song writer: These guys come in many forms. Often, they are not fantastic musicians...but man can they write a song. Bob Dylan again...perfect example. The Beatles....I love them, but would you say great muso's? Great together....but only Harrison stood out to me as the real muso. The others were well rounded with "their moments" so to speak. Diane Warren....Baby Face, Desmond Child, the list goes on and on. Some of these people are fair at performing, some are not...but they sure can write.
 
My point in mentioning the above....I think if people understood that a bit better and took the time to really climb out of their shell and explore a bit, we might begin to have more people accepting things instead of how someone may just lash out at something because it's not their thing. If some of the people that opened their mouths so fast to be negative really sat down and saw how all this stuff worked or how long it took to create regardless of the simplicity, style or whatever....they may have a new appreciation or at least an "acceptance" if you will. Ever Melodyned a line sound at a time when someone can't sing? LOL! Ever try to make a melody with it that doesn't exist? To me, that there is an artform even if sometimes it makes us cringe. Everything in life to me is about principal and acceptance of others. A hook is a hook...sometimes it's cliche, other times it's not as obvious. If it makes me move and sticks in my head after one listen, I'd call that success no matter what I may prefer stylistically. :)
 
I do whole-heartedly respect your opinion as well as others that may feel as you do. Thanks. :)

I think it boils down to this...

It can be frustrating to see someone who is about sincere as your insurance salesman being recognized by a large group of people as a maven.

If you encounter a musician who by their choice of material reveals that they don't listen to much music themselves and then realize they are being regarded as leaders of culture by a large group of people who haven't listened to much music themselves it can lead you realize there are a lot of people consuming music that isn't made for people who enjoy listening to music.

I think any negative reaction stems from the realization that a lot of music "product" is simply provided to be consumed and add texture to the day rather then to serve as part of the fabric of a larger musical experience.

Personally, I enjoy just about all music... as long as it provides some sort of transference of sincerity of the love of music and reveals some commitment of performance to me.

When you listen to music played by people who actually enjoy music you can open up and appreciate things like Lawrence Welk as well as Run DMC... and Balinese Gamalan music can be as stimulating as Indian Classical... and dance music at weddings is some of the very best stuff out there... any wedding... any culture... any place on the planet... it just is.

When people are passionate about music they tend to grow in their sophistication of taste in music... it takes decades to review every thing we can get easy access to listen too these days. It's takes time AND an interest in learning to understand patterns and harmony that is on the edge of your current appreciation.

The music video that sparked this discussion is targeted at consumers who may or may not like music and certainly targeted at consumers who have not listened to enough music to be discerning in their taste. Lots of young people have had access to good music to listen to... and this video was meant for all the rest of the kids. :-)

It's business... if you are in the business to make money... you better be nice and laugh a lot. :-)




 

Here's the really sad part:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...8Rebecca_Black_song%29

Ms. Black has been exposed to countless numbers of people saying hateful and hurtful things to and about her that she wasn't prepared for AND someone else is making the bulk of the money. The whole affair started when her mom actually paid $2,000 dollars so she could sing over the tracks. Someone is laughing all the way to the bank.

The incident is almost worse than my insurance salesman analogy suggested.

Danny Danzi

SeveredVesper

Hearing about all this the way *I* have delivered it, have your thoughts on this changed any? What ARE your thoughts now that you've heard a different side to the story? Can you understand where I'm coming from at all? Do we really need to bash stuff like this or any form of musical art? Can't we just accept it? Thoughts guys? Thanks for reading. :)

Yes, i agree about respect, and i can see your point of view.

I also posted there, but my reactions were due to thinking WHY it had so many views. Even though i highly dislike Justin Bieber, Ke$ha or who ever is dominating in todays music, it had ALOT more view-to-time ratio than it's competitors, or if not, the same even if IMO it didn't have much of a positive impact. So it must have been infamous for something. As i've said, you know when a hit song, regardless how cheesy or corny or what ever term, when you hear it, and this happened to be an unlikely entry for it IMO, and judging by the numbers of people that really don't find it great, i'm not on the minority, and not because i'm bashing on purpose.

SV: I'm sorry if you felt I may have singled out anyone in that other thread for bashing. Reading my post, it does kinda imply that but it really wasn't my intention. I look at things this way. If someone finds a way to make money at this, I have to praise it because it's really not easy. (I dig Bieber by the way. Talented kid.) Secondly, there are 4 types of people that I have found.
 

Yeah it's okay. It didn't feel it that way, i just clarified my statement back there. And i know regardless of the question why, it is still not right for me to bash. My bad.

(Can i ask what car that is? Nice brake calipers too.)

That's hard to agree with... veterans like B.B. King have bragging rights.

They never mention them... but they gots em.

One of my bands once opened for Bo Diddley... he showed up at the club said hello, asked about a car parts store, went to the store, came back and replaced his water pump in the parking lot before hitting the stage that night.

We knew we were lucky to get to hang out with a veteran. ;-)





Also, I do not agree that instrumentalists are elitists... I know many symphonic and big band players and they are all just regular folks who do what they do. The environment they work in requires a sense of competition and they also usually have "sophisticated" listening experience so they may be understood if you don't get what they do. Most of them do lack experience "jamming" and most of them seem sincerely envious of the folks who can have fun while free jamming. I don't get a sense of elitism from them... I think the people who feel that are bringing something to the encounter if they get that vibe after having a one on one with a instrumentalists that plays in a big ensemble.

There is no doubt that making records changes your perspective on how you perceive audio in general.

Learning how to listen critically reduces your enjoyment of a great deal of music because you hear the flaws - inexpertly-applied autotune, inappropriate reverb settings, overcompression, spectral anomalies and imbalances, clipping, and all the little annoyances that give away either a rushed production or one that panders to genre formulas.

I used to work in a professional photo lab, which had a crew that sat in a darkened room previewing negatives and adjusting their color. These adjustments would be recorded and subsequently applied during the actual exposure of the photograph. (In most labs this is automated; you pay much more to have a human correct your colors in a pro lab.) Everyone who worked in that department complained that their enjoyment of television and movies was diminished because they were so acutely aware of color anomalies. They were constantly adjusting their TVs and frustrated at the movies where they couldn't do that.

It's the same with audio. The closer you get to perfection - upgrading speakers, applying acoustical treatments - the more demanding your ears become. That hi-fi you owned in college and thought was a fine example of high fidelity back then is now unlistenably bad. Your car stereo, which sounded just fine when you bought the vehicle, now only plays talk radio because music sounds so awful on it. Substandard devices such as iPods and computer speakers are now unbearable even though you'd paid them no mind in the past.

And yet, I still enjoy the music of the 60's and 70's despite the obviously inferior sound quality. Go figure.

I'm a lover of music first and listen as such. I've heard too many "audiophile demo discs" featuring exquisite recordings of boring, lifeless music. I would take a flawed live recording of a great performance over that stuff ten times out of ten. 

In terms of "cheese", I think in any commercial art form there is a conflict between the "commercial" side, which focuses on entertaining the audience, and the "artistic" side, which focuses solely on the artist's self-expression. The "artist" will always dismiss those who focus on "pleasing the masses".

And to a certain extent, I think it's fair to have a lower opinion of music that aims only to please, and not challenge or enlighten, the masses. Cheesy music is the same as dumb, predictable action movies and network TV shows, or fast food. Generally, I prefer music that aims for the stars (and perhaps misses by a bit) over music that scores a direct hit on a fish in a barrel.

Having said that, I enjoy the occasional predictable movie, or a trip to the drive through window. And maybe shooting that fish in the barrel can be fun too...

Sometimes your message rides on that fish in a barrel.

some more instrumentalists... complete with mistakes, saves, and a love of music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmhP1RgbrrY