I've enjoyed following this thread. Thanks guys.

On the subject of In The Box
I think for the project or home studio it's likely the most practical, but the big studios still have stonkin' big desks, and they aren't all digital. There's a lot with warm analog front ends. What I'd give to have the room (and money) for a nice old Neve or SSL desk.

There's got to be a reason why every boy and his dog creates plugins that emulate all the great pieces of analog kit. Sorry that's just my interruption on that bit of a side track mentioned earlier.

What it also points to is the importance of what goes in. That is, concerning the subject of loudness, it's so very important to make sure that you capture the cleanest and biggest (relatively to the desired overall desired sound) sound possible. I always look toward using the least amount of meddling and interference with the original sound that I can get away with. Also the arrangement is very important in carving out a sonic residence for each sound. Like a house, every room has its place and it shouldn't detract from another room, rather it should enhance the appeal of the whole house. When you take care of those things the result comes about with a lot less hassle and your use of plugins becomes a joy rather than a frustration because the overall sound is not pleasing and your work becomes repair of things that really needed to be done at the beginning not the mix or mastering stage.

Sorry if I've rambled a bit but I thought the discussion needed to include this material.

Hi everyone once again, and as always, thanks so much for all your bits of knowledge. Where would I be, in all this, without all you guys chiming in? I'd be way back to where I wondered just what, exactly, was a "plug-in". I remember the dude who talked me into buying Sonar 3 at Guitar Center saying something about "you just use plug-ins" and I said, "Oh, of course!". A little fun history for you-as a small measure of payment for your services!
 
Hey, chucke, thanks man, I see that's what you and many others do so that's good enough for me! Please let yourself out here unless you don't want to; I shall not refuse your assistance!
 
Hey, Greg...that's a wonderful story, man and I appreciate you sharing it with me (and others?). That is about the time that I ran into a guy, like you, who had just put his first record out and by the same means (not sure if it was Sonar or not because I was so completely ignorant of the whole software-based recording method). I had already retired from the heavy metal business because I knew that I couldn't keep up with the unbelievable expenses in hardware. I had quite a collection but everything had or was switching over to digital and my dreams of being like "Alain and Paul" were vanishing. (see if anyone knows who these guys are-for fun!)
Anyway, for anyone enjoying their coffee and reading this, I asked this guy a ton of questions but he was very reluctant to say much. Fast forward about 5-7 years, and I am buying the aforementioned software-my beginning of my descent into you-know-where.
 
I think its great that things have turned out as they have for you and will find a way to let yo know when I have uploaded so you can hear. I guess they have PM's here? Assuming that's alright.
 
 
Your knowledge has been very helpful because I can always say, "Now, what did Greg say about how to do this?" Same with all you guys-I actually copy and paste everyone's answers down into a simple text file and I also actually re-read this list of answers very often. Hope there wasn't a charge...
 
 
Thanks Greg
 
 
 
 
Hi mudgel, and thanks for reading and joining in with your knowledge! I do not consider your words to be rambling by any means, so thanks. I see those videos where Yoad or someone else is just casually making a few adjustments and without the look of frustrating on his face. Why would he be frustrated? He had a million bucks worth of desk in front of him. I am beginning to think that the desk is pretty much the whole thing, really. I play around with the sims and it takes forever to find what I want and he, and his experience, just wrap the whole thing up in about an hour or two. Yeah, sometimes it takes him a WHOLE day. Not taking a thing away from him or his contemporaries- they have earned it all. But, I get your point...wouldn't it be grand if we somehow had all that equipment? I am going through my list of aunts and uncles-maybe there's a really wealthy one in there that I over-looked!
 
Oh, and your "house" analogy...gold! That's it exactly. I spend an awful lot of time making repairs-kind of low-rent, if you know what I mean.
 
I have recently seen how important it is to begin and end with very clean recordings and usage of proper plugs. I thank you for your advice and for your comments!
 
 
 
 
 
Yeah Sanderx, how awesome that would be to twist those knobs, man! But, at least you were right there, you know? More than I can say by a long way. I have been involved, a little mind you, with some live consoles but I was mostly just the gopher whom they would let take a peak. Just as long as I didn't get in the way! I am fairly certain that, with all that high-dollar stuff, they progressed really quickly. Then, throw in a professional engineer at the wheel, and the whole thing was possibly wrapped up by sundown.
 
Editorial: (for fun-which we all need)
 
Still-how much longer can they effectively hold off the software...the home musicians who are just as good or better than the "insiders" (studio musicians)...digital distribution...and whatever else you want to throw in here. My opinion, which is surely fit for a different discussion (but I will still allude to it here, anyway) is that the sun is going down rapidly. Yes, they still have "loudness" over us (not some of you though!) but the very next batch of kids won't be impressed by that nearly so much. I have experienced this with certainty already. I have tested a small number of them and the "loudness" factor doesn't seem to mean that much to them after the initial "super-blast" hits their ears. I have actually seen many of them immediately reach to turn it down. But, I do digress.
 
Thanks for your input Sanderxpander, I do appreciate any attention from you learned one's
 
 
Thanks everybody!
 
bob

Hi Greg, and thanks for even more from you on this subject. Firstly, there's no way that you actually did take out a second mortgage, right? If you did, then you are a bigger man than me my friend! Hail Greg! I won't ask what your wife (the enemy of all musicians) had to say about this.
 
But, while I have not considered the 2nd mortgage, I have tried to figure out what it would take to get all that gear. Outside of being a multimillionaire, I reckon it would take a group effort and maybe some local (or not) investors, and they would not be inclined to "join up" without promise of certain and immediate returns. So, now we have arrived at the mindless babble that accounts for pop music, or, back to square one.
 
Unless I somehow become involved with the imaginary group above (which I won't-not my style), I guess I will be waiting for all the software to catch up.  You know, you have a really good way of stating things. I understand it fully and agree with what you have said. The further you go, the more you see that the plug-ins can't quite do the job, that is to say, not to the degree that the real gear does do the job. The 3-D part I am currently finding to be especially true as I have yet to find a way to have that really full sound, no matter how many imagers I use. I think, "How in the heck are they achieving this booming, everywhere sound?" I think it is what you have said, its just the inherent nature of the hardware itself. No amount of plugs will create this sound. But, I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes along here and tells me otherwise!
 
Thanks for your insight, Greg. For the record, my first BASS guitar was a Peavey and it well illustrates your point. First real guitar was a Kramer-which I still have but have put it in semi-retirement.
 
 

that little something that is missing in a production done all in the box gets more and more obvious.

 
Its quotable, man, believe me.
 
bob
 
 

Hi Greg! I should curse you for leading me down the road of destruction...A to D converters...but I won't because I always knew that there had to be some achievable way to improve without going completely insane and spending every possible dollar you ever had. I never really looked that far into it before because I assumed that it was something out of reach, but it sounds as if you have formulated a plan. Now I will have to look into this but it won't be easy because other than a basic comprehension of what you are talking about, I got nothin'. I have to admit though, it sounds most intriguing. You don't have to go any further if you don't want to Greg-I have really enjoyed everything that you have shared-but if you DO wish to, then what is the name of one of these A/D converters that you are talking about? And how expensive is it? Answer if you can but if not then thanks for everything, man!
 
bob

Biggest mixing lesson in 2016 for me was to not use a limiter in my master bus. It destroys all the previous work I have done. This made me concentrate on my tracks which was the best thing that could have happened.

similar, i always have a limiter on the master for safety reasons, but if i see it working, i back something off in the mix

Hey man.  So as far as loudness goes, yes I can get them as loud as any modern mix over the last couple decades.  BUT... I dont want to relate that to the interface itself too much.  Just curious, but what interface specifically do you use?  Now on one hand yes, a good one is a good one and it can make life easier.
 
But on the other hand, the interface itself shouldnt affect the whole loudness piece.  So I dont want to give you the impression that you need to go spend money because a newer and better audio interface is going to change the overall loudness of your mix.  Depending on what you have, and depending on what you theoretically switch to....  it often can make your source material sound better, but loudness itself is in the mix and the master.
 
My first suggestion would be to keep working at it little by little until you can achieve similar volume to other recorded sources without having to smash the life out of it with a limiter.  When you get to that point where you can create the loudness, then you can study quality more.  You may notice too much noise, or maybe the stuff ran through the interface is lacking a certain richness or depth and overall sound quality.
 
Thats where a good interface with nice preamps helps.  It wont automatically make it louder....but ideally it will induce less noise and capture the full sound in a way that makes it sound more 'real'.
 
Now as far as interfaces do go....as I said...  I use a roland studio capture.  It has a ton of inputs, and 12 mic inputs with preamps.  I needed around 12 preamps to record acoustic drums multi mic'd.  It uses the roland VS preamps that a lot of folks know and love.  I think they are great for rock and metal because they are not heavily colored.  Color is often what people want, but for rock and metal, its nice to capture a pretty transparent sound I think.
 
Now...if you want the same tech and same preamps...they sell it in smaller versions.  The roland octa capture and roland quad capture(quad capture being the most affordable).  Same preamps and features etc but in a smaller package with less inputs.  I like the roland stuff additionally because it integrates really well with sonar.
 
There are other good ones out there, so dont feel like the roland is the only one that works.  It just happens to be what I use right now.
 
Ive also used presonus and M audio stuff with good success.  I like everything the roland has to offer the most right now, but both presonus and M audio were also capable of good sound quality.  
 
 
 
 
 
 

Sanderxpander
It would be wise to do a little research about any specific interface you'd be looking to buy. E.g. the Roland/Edirol devices often come up here on the forum as a source of problems. I don't own one so I can't say what the issue is or if it's universal (probably not) but it's worth knowing.

I have already gotten a few questions about which roland, which copy of windows, and which version of sonar I have cause folks tell me the same.  There are reported issues.
 
I have windows 10 home, roland studio capture with whatever the newest drivers are, and the most recent version of sonar.
 
utterly no issues so I cant personally speak on whatever issues others have seen.  I can only wonder if its related to older versions/updates.  Certainly there has to be something to the issues people have reported.....but I do suspect it may have been earlier software/hardware versions just because of how smooth everything seems to work for me
 
windows 10 especially wasnt kind to a lot of stuff when it first came around 

Hi again Bob!
 
My advice for right now is to stick with what you have.  Now I know that some folks do have some distaste for those units, but I can tell you I have used line6 stuff extensively in the past.  Including an interface (maybe the same one you are using).
 
Can you do better?  Yes.  Will it completely destroy the quality of your work and cause the issues you are currently outlining?  not quite.
 
I think getting to the point where you can produce comparable loudness, and also good quality mixes that dont unnaturally reach out and grab you in any sort of bad way(like the harshness) is a way to start.  Once you have the technique down and your ears figured out to be able to produce stuff that sounds relatively loud enough and is pleasing to listen to....  your game will naturally elevate as your gear does.  The harshness problem can exist no matter the interface.
 
Especially since you say you are recording all in the box, and you have a smaller interface.... at minimum I have to imagine you are programming the drums and maybe other elements since you arent recording acoustic instruments.  In that regard, the interface wouldnt be contributing to any harshness or lack of loudness in those programmed elements.
 
How do you EQ?  I've been right where you are and still end up there sometimes.  For me, it ends up being a byproduct of solo'ing instruments and EQ'ing til they sound great all by themselves, and then not really paying enough attention to how they fit in the mix.
 
Like for example if you are a drummer..  you focus your but off on the drums and trying to make those cymbals really shimmer and shine.  You eq to really make the snare crack and the kick and toms slap through.  When you are done working on the drums....  you end up with something you think you like, but its actually pretty 'hifi' sounding in the mix.  Has too much bite from like 2k to 4k.  Sounds great when you audition solo with no context.  Its a little bitey in the context of a mix, but you feel like you dont want to undo those EQ moves cause you could have sworn that they sounded great lol.
 
Its kind of an ego thing where you have to relinquish yourself to the idea that everything has to sit in a place, rather than trying to highlight your favorite instrument in such a way that it really makes them stand out.
 
The frequency that makes things jump out and be heard.....are those same upper midrange frequencies that in high doses can also make things sound shrill and given listener fatigue.
 
another problem frequency is somewhere between 350 and 500......even as high as 800 HZ.  It can make things sound a little tubby and round into nasaly around 800 for lack of a better term.
 
Its common practice to scoop here a little to clean up the instruments.  When you watch people EQ and what not, its like they almost always treat here a little.  So you probably naturally adopt it.
 
the problem with digitally created, and often digitally recorded stuff....  is that it usually is NOT so thick and round in this area.
 
You pull those frequencies because its habit and you just think you need to in order to get that midrange mud out of the way, but in reality...  the digital instruments and digitally recorded instruments already dont have much presence here. 
 
In effect what you end up doing is reducing too much body.  And at that point it is addition by subtraction.
 
You make the upper mids bite too much and sound shrill because you have taken away too much low mid.
 
Dont take any of this personally.  Like I said I have direct experience with sabotaging my own stuff doing some of the same things lol
 
if you go back through the mix and find that you are adding a lot in the 2-4khz area to a lot of intruments, and removing a lot between 300-800 hz....  cut your eq moves in half.  If you added 3 db of 2khz..  change it to  adding 1.5 db
 
if you subtracted 3db at 350 hz, change it to subtracting 1.5
 
that alone will round things out.
 
 
 

Hey man.   Does the CLA stuff you are using have analog modeling, and if so, does it have a "noise" setting?
 
some of them do have a button to specifically flip "noise" on or off.  It is often labeled as 'noise', or sometimes its just a switch/button that says 'analog'.  Kicking that off in the plugin will eliminate the line level noise that they modeled in.  The analog character is still there, but the hiss that stacks from track to track will go away if your plugin lets you turn it off.
 
as far as who to listen to..  For a while there, for me it was all about finding producers/engineers/mixers and ultimately bands who tend to produce a sound that I like.  And the next step was to try to follow whatever advice they put out there to the letter and see if I can at least come reasonably close to replicating the same type of feel/sound as something that they did.  I'd try to make instrument tones sound the same way.  Id try to layer them the same way that they recorded them.  Id then try to learn whatever I could about 'how' they recorded and mixed everything(if info was available).  
 
I guess I figured I just needed to try and learn how to do some things that are "proven to work" before trying to trust my own ears in deciding what works.  Kinda no different than when guys used to want to figure out how to create the Eddie Van Halen guitar tone.  Lots of guys started off trying to figure out how to capture his tone, but ultimately developed their own voice.  In short...  Id start by listening to both guys you mention and trying the suggestions of both guys you mention(and more)
 
as you mess around with different sounds and different approaches and follow different bits of advice from different guys......eventually you come to realize that they are all right lol.  At any given time, what is best for one mix might not be what is best for another.  You might find that sometimes Yoad's suggestion works, where other times Pensados suggestion works....and sometimes neither works and you just have to let your own ears decide what works best in a particular instance.  Then you can be the one saying "heres what to do if you want your XXXX to sound like this in a mix"
 
It really all is just about practice.  Learn as many techniques as you can and try them all.  Some will really work for you, and others wont.  Even approaches that work great for somebody else sometimes wont work for you. In those instances, dont be afraid to discard those techniques that just arent working.  That would be yet another mistake I learned the hard way with time.  Trying to force things that I think I need to be doing because somebody else does it and does it well.  You get it in your head that "if pensado says I need to do it this way...  then I need to do it this way".   So naturally, I'd hang onto the approach for too long just because I felt like I was "failing" if I couldnt make it work as well as another guy.  Its better to not feel like there are any rules, and your best bet is to give yourself the freedom to try whatever you want and give yourself the freedom to keep what you like and get rid of what you dont like no matter if somebody else out there thinks its important
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Which CLA plugs specifically are you talking about? The compressors (CLA2A, CLA3A, CLA76) have a noise/hum switch that lets you switch on 50Hz or 60Hz mains hum or turn it off. I don't think the CLA "multi" plugins, like CLA Guitars/Bass/Vocals have such a thing. It's worth noting that most distortion/overdrive algorithms like in CLA Guitars would add some amount of noise. It
If it's mainly bothering you in the quiet parts you could use a gate. Otherwise I don't think it's worth worrying about, any real amp you would record at higher gain would add at least as much noise.

Strange that you still have noise when they're off. Or at least I think that makes them silent for me. You said it goes away completely when you switch the plugin off? Or do you mean muting the track? Is it possible that you have more of them somewhere else in the project?

And yeah noise can sometimes be treated well with a gate. Preferably you'd have as clean a recording as possible and use as noiseless gear as possible but there are limits. Hiss and hum shouldn't generally be a problem in a modern setup with at least decent hardware. The most I get is when I mic an amp and/or use my Fender Rhodes. Both vintage technologies :)

I believe track mute occurs before the fx bin, so if a plugin is generating noise/hum, muting the track or clip would not affect the noise.

chuckebaby
Rule Numero Uno: 
Tracks:
Buses:
FX And Bus Compression:

Nice rules of thumb here Chuckeybaby
 
thx
 
meh