2018/07/22 23:33:56
Euthymia
Johnbee58With Brickwall, I put it in the Master buss (before ARC) then took the DAW master volume fader down to the point where it never got above 1db. Then I started moving the threshold on Brickwall and determined that -9.8db was where I got the best results.  I kept the Release at default (251) and the vu meter for the master buss stayed below 1db.



When I started messing with this DAW stuff, I had a miserable time sorting out the differences between "dynamic range," "loudness," "volume," and "level."
 
I've kind of given up trying to figure out what Internet "experts" mean when they use those terms because a lot of the time it seems they misuse them and the ones who do understand them speak so far over my head and assume so much prior knowledge that they may as well be misusing them.
 
It sounds to me like your current issue may be level.
 
My suggestion:
 
Get all your limiters and compressors and all that set up and then crank your Master fader up until the meter is kissing the red and back off a little, do a render (Export), and then see what that sounds like in your car vs. the local country station. Just as a test. Don't worry about the numbers. We're not going to ship this file to RCA, so don't worry if it clips your amplifier or whatever, we're just experimenting.
 
That Master fader controls the level you are getting in your final rendered file and if you have it set low, you can do anything you want with compressors and limiters and gluing egg cartons to your wall and it won't matter.
 
A tool that I use to check my rendered files is the HOFA 4U Meter. It's a freeware combination meter and master fader and panner VST, but it also includes a function where you can drag and drop a file onto its UI and it will tell you what the overall loudness of the file is in LUFS. The usual target is -14.
 
Compare your rendered files to downloaded files from iTunes or wherever using the HOFA plug-in and you can get a better idea whether you are on the right track.
 
Get it for free here:
 
https://hofa-plugins.de/en/plugins/4u/
 
And IMO, you don't need to spend another dime on mixing and mastering plug-ins. These days there are so many great freeware ones that I believe it's only necessary for hobbyists to spend money for specialized tools like automatic phase aligners. When we have things like the Dead Duck package, which includes just about every mixing tool you can think of, and Cakewalk by BandLab, which comes with most of them in the ProChannel, and excellent ones they are, there is no call to try to spend one's way to sounding good. The path is first learning how to use what we already have. If a racing driver keeps spinning out or stalling the engine, a faster car or different oil treatment is not the answer.
 
If I'm jonesing for a new plug-in to play with, there are so many interesting freeware ones, with new ones coming out every month, that checking KVR every few days satisfies my cravings pretty well.
 
You want a new limiter? My favorite limiter is Unlimited by Sonic Anomaly. It's free. Get it here:
 
https://sonic.supermaailma.net/plugins
 
And while you're there, snag Bass Professor II, the bass amp plug-in I use on every song.
2018/07/23 03:24:14
Cactus Music
I set the Brickwall limiter to -.04 

 
This catches any overs and so far for me it's seems to work perfectly. When I analyze the song with Wave Lab it always shows Peak level is exactly that. 
But Peak level and RMS level are two different things. 
The RMS level can only come up buy more or less pushing your tracks to the max without you "hearing" the compression. 
You go track by track and maximize each track so it has a nice solid level. Use a compressor to bring up the lows or use automation etc ,, your choice.  But each track needs to have balls.
I assign parts to busses and there's where I keep an eye on that second level. I'm pushing the level without going over on every buss. Sometimes I use a buss compressor or limiter.  
 
 
2018/07/23 23:28:25
Euthymia
Johnbee58I rendered a mix and took it out to my car.  I still had to crank the volume up to half as far as it goes to get a satisfactory volume and that still resulted in being practically blown out of my car when I ejected the CD and went back to my local country station.

 
If the problem is this drastic, where you have to turn the knob up to 12:00 to even hear it okay, and then pop out the CD and the radio station comes blasting out of the speakers, the problem isn't "balls" or which mastering system or any of that, there just plain isn't enough level coming from the Master bus at export time.
 
There's a conceptual issue here that needs to get sorted out, then these other (relative) subtleties can be addressed. First the horse has to be able to stand up, then we can see how its balls are hanging.
2018/07/23 23:38:51
stxx
Instead of ARC, I recommend SONARWORKS Studio bundle which includes SYSTEMWIDE which allows ALL your sounds on the computer to get the benefits of the room correction. THIS IS HUGE!  SYSTEMWIDE can be purchased standalone as well but I happened to have the bundle with Headphone, speaker, DAW and Systewide support and my mixes have gotten so much better!  It also allows you to listen to reference tracks say from a CD or media player etc to run through the same correction so you can REALLY properly analyze your mixes and sound.  I also have ARC which I no longer use unfortuantely. Sonarworks is just way better all around
2018/07/24 01:07:42
Johnbee58
Euthymia
Johnbee58I rendered a mix and took it out to my car.  I still had to crank the volume up to half as far as it goes to get a satisfactory volume and that still resulted in being practically blown out of my car when I ejected the CD and went back to my local country station.

 
If the problem is this drastic, where you have to turn the knob up to 12:00 to even hear it okay, and then pop out the CD and the radio station comes blasting out of the speakers, the problem isn't "balls" or which mastering system or any of that, there just plain isn't enough level coming from the Master bus at export time.
 
There's a conceptual issue here that needs to get sorted out, then these other (relative) subtleties can be addressed. First the horse has to be able to stand up, then we can see how its balls are hanging.




No, it's not THAT drastic.  I have to turn the volume up about half way to get the volume COMPARABLE to the radio station.  I hope you don't think that my mixes are so low that they can't be heard at all unless the volume is up half way.  I just want that understood.  As far as Sonarworks, it's too late.  I already spent $200.00 on ARC.
 
John B.
2018/07/24 02:34:02
Cactus Music
Have you been following this thread? its the same topic.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/How-to-maximize-loudness-without-crossing-the-red-zone-m3770819.aspx
 
As said ( I think) there are hundreds of methods for achieving a mix that will stand side by side with commercial music. Its part of our plan to learn how to do this even if it's just a hobby, It's a good idea to reach this level of skills so our friend can enjoy our music.  
 
It sometimes takes detailed work to get there. It the part I enjoy the most about mixing, details. 
I used to spend a lot of time in Wave Lab on tracks that were very un even and had a lot of almost over peaks. Vocals are certainly the worst offenders. I would manually adjust the peaks and low spots using the Gain tool. You can get very microscopic. 
Now I just carefully use compression/ limiting at all steps to even them out. 
I also will use other tools like volume envelopes and applying ( rendering) gain to bits and pieces. 
And another HUGE thing I do is watch the low end! Low end can easily push your master buss into the red and kill everything else. I use the pro channel hi pass on just about everything. Between 85-100 does the trick. 
 
 
2018/07/24 13:17:29
thedukewestern
Correct your room by turning your monitors down before using a processor.  Less volume in the room = less room = less room problems.   
 
If you treat your room, treat it strategically.
 
Before you high pass anything, look at the rta to see if it actually would benefit from it in the mix that its in.  You should never do anything in your mix as a result of habit.  High passing by default creates peaks, and can remove things you actually would benefit from.  If you chop 80 hz out of a guitar, it may lose some of the impact you want.  Learn to make strategic decisions.  A mix is a SYSTEM. 
 
Use a reference track (s) in your session
 
Improve how you track - don't be afraid to re-track for technical reasons, it happens more often than not.  Don't be afraid to track with a compressor if you find you have peaks on the way in, and your results may be better.  If your original waveforms after tracking have tons of clips and peaks, you should be tracking better.  You can use clip gain to smooth things out, but by the time you get to the end of an entire session, the magic will certainly be gone.
 
As far as getting a master, check out ian vargos course at the pro audio files, in the box mastering.  Study it.  The best part is hearing how little and or how much mastering actually affects a good final mix.  Dont worry about your final level, it can always be made louder, and or softer by the end user.
 
Check out youtube.  They normalize all their audio so there's no big ups and downs between tracks from different eras.  You'll notice that... say... enter sandman from the early 90s, now that its the same volume as something from 2010 for example, sounds much better and clearer.  If you listened to the same two songs on another format,  you would say the newer one sounds better because it is "Louder".   Don't fall for that.  Learn a little about mastering.
 
 
 
 
2018/07/24 14:47:27
Starise
I think ARC 2.5 is a great program. I just updated from 2.0. For those using the older version thinking about upgrading it, you don't need the new mic since 2.5 lets you calibrate with the old mics. I bought the new mic anyways.
The calibration procedure has to be right in order for it to work the way it should. I'm almost anal about how I do mine. I make sure I'm sitting in the chair in the same place I sit when I mix and I have the mike exactly at ear level. I also take one measurement with my studio door open and one with it closed because that changes things.
Mixing in a smaller space with  standing bass waves is pretty common. You will likely see a notch in the low mids on the EQ in ARC. ARC isn't perfect and I suspect it sometimes over compensates in very small ways. I would still never want to go back to mixing without ARC in my space. The challenge is to know the limitations. If ARC is taking slightly too much low mid bass out of your mix, then you will mix a bit too much bass. I compensate for that a bit by going back and forth and using headphones without ARC. It is a process for sure. Once you have it nailed down though your mixes will be much better. Still light years better than working without ARC.
 
On the volume of your mixes- One of the first things you need to do is make sure that what you hear from your master is at the right volume for your room. If using a go between program from your interface manufacturer make sure the levels are set right in it before it goes to the daw. If you are monitoring at levels adjusted too high then all of your mixes will be quiet. I tend to have my levels set at just past 50% when I mix. Check your source material. Did the signal going into the interface go in at a good healthy level? -6 to -8db is a good rule of thumb. Too much gain at the channel stage and there's nothing to play with in terms of gain later on. Bass overloads inputs usually more than the higher frequencies for a given gain. Options are to use side chaining or a dynamic EQ to only reduce the bass when it begins to get out of hand. CbB has a compressor in the PC with side chaining ability. Doing all of these things allows you to drive the total mix up higher at the master bus. Anything below 60hz should be rolled off unless you plan on making one of those thumper tunes that shake the dentures in old peoples mouths. In those mixes the bass kills everything else.
 
On limiting- I'll tell you a little secret. In some genres 0bd is exceeded occasionally. In fact it's a normal thing. The peaks don't overload the inputs into clipping. The more you limit, the less personality a track has. Limiting was originally intended to tame only the worst peaks and bring up volumes slightly. If the gains are already into the stratosphere there isn't anywhere to go and you end up crushing your track. Perceived loudness comes mostly from the mids. The low mids OTOH are usually where the unpleasant "mud" can be found. If you can get those frequencies louder without the bass overpowering the mix you've come a long way towards getting your levels up. Not every channel needs compression. Sometimes you hardly need it at all. Precision frequency notching using a spectrum analyzer can go a long way toward seeing where the mud is and removing it. Then you can move the master level up higher.
2018/07/24 23:05:09
Johnbee58
I do very much like the MEMS mic that come with ARC.  In fact, I did my last project with it on the vocals ("Over My Shoulder" in Songs section).  For a cheap mic I like how it sounds with my voice better than my $500.00 Avantone CV 12.  I just might use it for vocals from now on.
 
I'm going to try a demo of Waves L2 Ultramaximizer.  If I can't get anywhere with that, I give up on this volume boost thing.
 
JB
 
 
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