Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 It has its own uninstaller that you can access from Windows add | remove programs should you choose to remove it.

Ah, that's good information.

MacFurse
Craig, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have not heard you so passionately defend your position, time and time again before. I applaud your persistence, and once again, you've taught me things, or made me aware of them, just by hearing you speak. Thanks. It's been very clear to me right from the start what you thought the benefits of LANDR are, and I agree with you. It's great for it's intended use, which is NOT Master Engineering.
 
But your post above, I believe, highlights why there is so much debate here. LANDR is NOT for SONAR users. [snip]
I respect your position on this and your arguments, but I think the target audience is wrongly placed.

 
First, thanks for the calm, intelligent, and passionate discourse 
 
Since Gibson acquired Cakewalk I've become more aware of the customer base.The Artist version has been very successful, and it's mostly entry-level people who buy it. The percentage of Platinum owners is smaller than the sum total of Artist and Professional owners, and even a cursory look at this forum shows that there are even a lot of Platinum users with pretty basic questions...including the hardy perennial, "So I mixed a song, but it sounds so much quieter than commercial recordings. What am I doing wrong?"
 
I don't see the target audience as misplaced, I see our little pro corner of the audio world as riding the coattails of consumer electronics, just as we have with computers in general. As mentioned before, I know how to master so in terms of mastering music, I don't need LANDR for the same functions that a GoPro owner would. However as I also mentioned, clients who have access to LANDR will make my life easier on mastering projects. 
 
So ultimately, it's a tool. The percentage of SONAR users who find it useful will not be 100%, but it won't be 0% either. I'm sure that many SONAR users will use it for something like doing quick reference masters, or even for finished projects that aren't mission-critical if they don't feel comfortable mastering something themselves or don't have the budget for a professional mastering engineer.
 
 

tenfoot

Anderton
 
I'm not a big fan of presets, here's why. 

So you truly believe that landr is that different to a preset in a mastering plugin Craig? I have given it a spin and to me the results were pretty similar. Like any mastering plugin preset,  it certainly works better on some tracks than it does on others,  and the end result is sometimes better but never brilliant.  Surely your 'works by coincidence' assertion could apply equally to it? 

Yes and no. First, the "no" part. I'm quite sure it does more than a preset because on the examples I've heard, it has identified build-ups that need to be tamed, and these have been in different frequency ranges. I commonly need to add shallow cuts at various places in songs when mastering, but they're not always in the same frequency range. LANDR seems capable of identifying where those kinds of issues are, and dealing with them.
 
Similarly, it seems to know how much brightness to add. Noel's cut needed more high end, and LANDR added it. OTOH when I fed in a song that I'd mastered to see if I could fool it and LANDR did essentially nothing at all, it must have "decided" that the spectral balance was correct.
 
I don't know about the extent of "artificial intelligence" in the program, but it clearly makes decisions based on contextual analysis. Presets can't do that.
 
Now for the "yes" part - it's not a human, so I doubt that it can (at least not yet) make "out of the box," or perhaps more correctly, "out of the algorithm" decisions. LANDR claims the engine will learn over time, so this may become less of an issue in the future. I also think this may be why LANDR has emphasized offering free previews, because it's not good to have disappointed customers . Some music will be a better fit with the system and some won't, so with the previews, people will know whether what they've submitted is a good fit or not.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Hi folks,
 
Thank you for all your comments. I just wanted to set some facts straight about the Landr installer and why we include it. 
 
Our primary goal with SONAR is to give customers a seamless experience using the software irrespective of their experience. We have been working towards this goal for many years now. SONAR has a wide user base composed of musicians, producers, sound engineers many of whom are NOT expert users who can easily tweak their systems. Our support records attest to the fact that many users just install the program and don't realize that they can go back to command center and install optional components. Its not necessarily intuitive to many people who don't have a technical background.  
 
In light of the above our goal is to make features easily accessible in the user interface and having a new feature that requires a secondary install creates a bad user experience. For example many of our support calls relate to melodyne not being available in the region fx menu due to this.
This is always a trade off between installer size and convenience. In the case of Melodyne we didn't include the installer because of size restrictions (it is a 146MB installer and takes time to run).
For Landr their installer is just 50MB so we chose to include it especially since the choice for it is in the export menu. This is no different from the approach we took with Soundcloud which requires you to log in to their service. By any definition it would be a poor user experience if you had to install soundcloud as an optional install before you could use it.
 
Regarding the Landr app itself, their client app is exactly like the soundcloud app in that it does nothing until you choose to export. There is no impact on system performance since it doesnt run in the background. It has its own uninstaller that you can access from Windows add | remove programs should you choose to remove it. As many have pointed out there is also the possibility to avoid installing it if you use the command center custom options.
 
While you do have to pay to use the Landr service regularly, previews are free even if you don't pay for a subscription so its still useful to audition mixes. As has been explained in many threads, for many musicians who don't use mastering services frequently or lack the skills to do this themselves (I think its fair to say that most musicians don't know how to master) Landr is very likely to be all they will need for mastering. We will however continue to improve on our mastering tools and plugins that cater to the pro production audience and even have some goodies in development for subsequent updates.
 
Finally, the entire industry is moving to a service oriented model. SONAR is not just a closed DAW for power users but is an open platform for music production. That means integrating popular tools and standards such as ARA, VST3 and even services like SoundCloud and Landr which are integrated as export options.
If anything it was our foresight to provide for external encoders (that has existed for close to 10 years), that allowed us to integrate Landr so easily. It was done with minimal changes to SONAR and was essentially just an installer drop in for us.
 
My request is to be tolerant and open minded to the needs of other users. Just because a feature is of no use to one doesn't imply that its not useful to another set of users. There are already several who have said this will greatly help improve their mixes and save time.
 

I think it's been made quite clear that even the folks who are liking LANDR think that it would be better as a separate installer.
 
So is this the final word? It's going to remain in the Main download/installer? If so then for the first time since X2 I'm going to have to reconsider my future with Sonar. This was handled very poorly.
 
Sorry if that seems unreasonable or harsh but a huge reason of why I (and others) enjoy Cake products is because, when it's possible and reasonable to do so, you guys listen and take action.
 
As far as many of the assertions you made about this installer the user base have already reported the exact opposite. The LANDR uninstall leaves remnants. The LANDR app phones home for updates (as proven by a user who already had the client installed... your new version caused an update prompt) and even creates it's own icon. It is not just an export option it is a program from some outside company trying to sell us something without actually providing any real value (the exact same service is available from their website).
 
Apparently, as discovered by user mettulus, even if you are aware that this thing is in the main dowload installer and go about an advanced install so you can uncheck it STILL leaves a little remnant stating it wasn't installed (possibly as data gathering).
 
Comparing it to the Soundcloud uploader does not seem even close to comparable because I've never had some Soundcloud app show up, create an icon or nag me like this LANDR thing has done to others. However if Soundcloud DOES have some weird program skulking about my system I would not like that either BUT at least I know who they are.
 
Comparing it to Melodyne which actually does amazing things and adds immense benefit to the package is just wrong. I can think of a ton of other tools that would be WAY more appropriate in the main installer including Melodyne... but they aren't.
 
I don't know if you guys got pressured by Gibson to cram this thing in there or if LANDR waved so much cash around you couldn't refuse but this is really out of character for Cakewalk.
 
I've been a big booster of Cake and Sonar over the years and have been scrambling to figure out how to manage a reup once my script ends (BTW... yanking the upgrade deal early messed that up) but if this is the type of thing that's going to be snuck in and Cake isn't going to take legtimate concerns seriously then I just don't know what to think anymore.
 
Something else is going on here and the more that gets revealed about this company and it's little app the more suspicious I get.
 
Now I'm just one guy but if you've read the posts about this, and I'm sure you have been, I am not alone. This is damaging the product and the trust based relationship with us customers.
 
Is it really worth it?
 
And to finish up... it's one thing when freeware/donationware/budget programs do this but Sonar, although an excellent value, is NOT some cheapo piece of junk. It's an investment that people pay good money for and expect the CORE PROGRAM to remain uncompromised by such blatant product placement/bloatware.
 
Sorry, but this thing simply does not belong in the main installer.
 
Please reconsider.

jpetersen

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 It has its own uninstaller that you can access from Windows add | remove programs should you choose to remove it.

Ah, that's good information.

It's misinformation. It leaves remnants. For those who got stuck with it unaware you may have to use CCleaner, RevoUninstaller, manually remove the entries or simply restore to a previous state and install again using advanced/verbose mode and deselect the LANDR installer.
 
This is why I'm getting upset. This is being treated like no big deal but it is seriously not cool for people who take this type of thing seriously and are careful about what kind of garbage gets put on their DAWs.

Beepster.  Good post!

fireberd
Beepster.  Good post!

Thank you. I'm really not enjoying being an arse about this but it seems like a really important turning point for Cake. I have gone to GREAT lengths to keep my system free of junk programs and I always trusted Cake not to do this type of thing. I'm sure that is the case for MANY others as well.
 
Easily resolved by separate installers. Then load up my account with as much third party junk as you want. Then it's MY choice what to check out and what to ignore.
 
Cheers.

Beepster

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 
 

I think it's been made quite clear that even the folks who are liking LANDR think that it would be better as a separate installer.
 
So is this the final word? It's going to remain in the Main download/installer? If so then for the first time since X2 I'm going to have to reconsider my future with Sonar. This was handled very poorly.
 
Sorry if that seems unreasonable or harsh but a huge reason of why I (and others) enjoy Cake products is because, when it's possible and reasonable to do so, you guys listen and take action.
 
As far as many of the assertions you made about this installer the user base have already reported the exact opposite. The LANDR uninstall leaves remnants. The LANDR app phones home for updates (as proven by a user who already had the client installed... your new version caused an update prompt) and even creates it's own icon. It is not just an export option it is a program from some outside company trying to sell us something without actually providing any real value (the exact same service is available from their website).
 
Apparently, as discovered by user mettulus, even if you are aware that this thing is in the main dowload installer and go about an advanced install so you can uncheck it STILL leaves a little remnant stating it wasn't installed (possibly as data gathering).
 
Comparing it to the Soundcloud uploader does not seem even close to comparable because I've never had some Soundcloud app show up, create an icon or nag me like this LANDR thing has done to others. However if Soundcloud DOES have some weird program skulking about my system I would not like that either BUT at least I know who they are.
 
Comparing it to Melodyne which actually does amazing things and adds immense benefit to the package is just wrong. I can think of a ton of other tools that would be WAY more appropriate in the main installer including Melodyne... but they aren't.
 
I don't know if you guys got pressured by Gibson to cram this thing in there or if LANDR waved so much cash around you couldn't refuse but this is really out of character for Cakewalk.
 
I've been a big booster of Cake and Sonar over the years and have been scrambling to figure out how to manage a reup once my script ends (BTW... yanking the upgrade deal early messed that up) but if this is the type of thing that's going to be snuck in and Cake isn't going to take legtimate concerns seriously then I just don't know what to think anymore.
 
Something else is going on here and the more that gets revealed about this company and it's little app the more suspicious I get.
 
Now I'm just one guy but if you've read the posts about this, and I'm sure you have been, I am not alone. This is damaging the product and the trust based relationship with us customers.
 
Is it really worth it?
 
And to finish up... it's one thing when freeware/donationware/budget programs do this but Sonar, although an excellent value, is NOT some cheapo piece of junk. It's an investment that people pay good money for and expect the CORE PROGRAM to remain uncompromised by such blatant product placement/bloatware.
 
Sorry, but this thing simply does not belong in the main installer.
 
Please reconsider.

+1 Well said!

Is Sonar Platinum not going to be a pro tool anymore, then?

jpetersen
Is Sonar Platinum not going to be a pro tool anymore, then?

Unless they actually hatchet up the program itself then of course it's going to remain a pro tool. It still does all the pro stuff it always does and it's great (which is why I use it). This is an entirely different issue. Also I don't believe offering or promoting LANDR is wrong or devalues Sonar itself as a professional tool just like I don't think Style Dials or the other simpler plugs take away from the more advanced features. They are just extra options.
 
I don't want my beef mixed up with that other side discussion because I really don't see anything wrong with anyone at any skill level using what works for them/makes them happy.
 
I just do not want unkown, unwanted and possibly detrimental things getting snuck on to my most valuable tool (my computer). I also don't just use my DAW for music. I do a lot of my more sensitive personal/business tasks on there because I KNOW I've kept out riff raff programs and don't go hunting around the tubes willy nilly on it.
 
So yeah... let's not confuse the issue. Aside from the fact it just happens to be their app that is getting bundled LANDR has basically NOTHING to do with my complaint.
 
Hopefully that makes sense.