Mesh
 
Craig, reading your comments on loops (which I haven't used in quite some time) has got me interested in them. Are these loops available in the current Platinum version (what you've described above (which Brian approved))?  
 
(During the installation, I only recall seeing the Loopmaster and other loop based stuff that was included in X3).

They were made specifically for the membership program, are not available anywhere else, and will be included with an upcoming update. However, eventually the loops may be available for sale to non-members. As amazing as it might seem, not everyone uses SONAR but they still need good loops 

Paul P
A long time ago I couldn't afford it, but I always thought that Cakewalk was built on MIDI.  That is was king of the software-synths-on-midi world.  I waited a long time before finally jumping on board with X1/X2 and discovered that the Cakewalk world was now built on audio, not midi.  Worse, the midi there was had problems. I was kind of disappointed.  What happened ?

This happened 

denverdrummer
Craig's stuff sounds great, and it's well produced, even if it's just drum loops, and the creativity involved makes it unique.

But the only reason why the drums sound great is because the drummer is great. Now, I will take credit for cutting and pasting loops and inserting hits to create variations, but garbage in = garbage out. In this case, great drummer = great drummer out. (Concrete Limiter to bring up the ambience doesn't hurt, either!)
 
 

Anderton

Mesh
 
Craig, reading your comments on loops (which I haven't used in quite some time) has got me interested in them. Are these loops available in the current Platinum version (what you've described above (which Brian approved))?  
 
(During the installation, I only recall seeing the Loopmaster and other loop based stuff that was included in X3).

They were made specifically for the membership program, are not available anywhere else, and will be included with an upcoming update. However, eventually the loops may be available for sale to non-members. As amazing as it might seem, not everyone uses SONAR but they still need good loops 

Thanks Craig.......will look forward to using them.

Agreed 100% that creating good EDM is just as challenging as creating good anything. And let me throw in a comment about club/producer DJs...try doing a four-set for 4,000 Germans whacked out on ecstasy without making a single mistake. Blow a beat match, and it's a train wreck. It's not easy, and to be able to create a musical ebb and flow that lasts over multiple hours takes serious skills. "DJ" is not synonymous any more with "the guy who played Barbra Streisand's 'Evergreen' over a crappy sound system at my cousin's wedding."
 

Mesh

Drone7
 A well-produced world-class EDM track is a feast for the ears and emotions of any audiophile music-loving discerning listener, quite frankly, music-wise, IMO there's nothing better on the planet,
  

As I'm not very familiar with all the varieties of EDM artists out there, so can you please suggest some "well-produced" artists or songs that I can feast my ears on?  

I'm not an EDM fan but my daughter recently showed me some acoustic stuff by a EDM band named Above and Beyond.
All 3 of these guys are accomplished musicians (playing guitar and keys live).
I was impressed enough to check them out more and saw some of their EDM concerts and was kinda blown away.
I mean they're just 3 geeky guys up there twisting knobs and stuff but it's a killer sound and you gotta respect their programming abilities.
Also impressed enough that I bought the full version of Alchemy... but it's quite a learning curve for an old dog like me...I'm wanting to integrate these types of synths with "orchestra" based music, rock and funk...wish me luck!
 
addendum- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf2PWYnI-wA

Well,
 
I wonder how AD2 came about 'as a major reason to the price hike'.  I haven't been able to find a copy of the financial plan for Cakewalk on the net anywhere.  I do however see that you are invested in a great set of tools, and don't value AD2 in your purchasing decisions.   Neither do I, but I do use them and SD3 when I am creating scratch tracks so that when I work with the drummer on a project, I can get my point across.  I for one, appreciate that Sonar has a good sounding set of reference drums and midi patterns.  So if I put it another way in a price point decision, if they took them out, I would not be exactly happy, but I can go back to my historical purchases, download, and re-install.  As a side note, I am grateful that the Bakers have given us this capability.
 
Going to have to check out the reference to discrete drums listed above.  Faster is appreciated.  In all - I really appreciate this forum, and everyones posts here.  Invaluable, you all are...
 
Best Regards,
 
L  
   

There is more to music than dreamt of in your philosophies, Horatio. 
 
Recoil was a great "live" show, tho it was mostly the videos.  I was close enough to watch the chemical Bros twist knobs yet didn't get moshed.  Very interesting stuff as they jumped over the place between all the analog stuff and I left a puddle of drool.  I've seen the Gang of Four from the stage when we were all young, standing right in front of Andy Gill.  I did sound for after hour clubs like Nickel Bag back in NYC for some of the hip hop acts before they got big - and most that didn't make it.  And I've seen plenty of stadium rock shows.  It is all pretty good.  Two of my favorite "musicians" were a couple of drunk English guys in Paris I kept running into while they were busking.  They'd never make Carnegie but they were more infectious than any # of real musicians I've sat through.
 
@

I'm impressed with this thread. It contains some very thoughtful, intelligent and valid points made in a constructive and productive manner from multiple points of view. The world may end this week.
 

denverdrummer" I'm for more music being created, not less,"

Thank you denverdrummer for keeping the truth front and center. I see you having much in common with Drone7.

ATI personally hope Cake continues to appeal to this bigger audience."

Thank you AT. Couldn't agree more.

AndertonDifferent people have different needs.

Absolutely Craig! This thread manages to capture the pro-active expression of -some- of those needs. Or wants.
....
 
The point was made that if one does not need/prefer AD2, don't buy it. That's not the point.
 
The issue is more about the -Membership- which is being marketed as the current release -plus- a full year of incremental releases of features, support and content without any concrete information as to what you will receive.

Anderton"It's on Cakewalk to provide something that causes people to renew."

Great! We and anybody else can speculate or hint as to what that might be. Or perhaps we can offer a suggestion at a pivotal point in the evolution of the platform. CW is taking a lead to change the business model and I'm sure they have a credible strategy for the first year. Just thinking now might be a good time for users to offer insights on what they regard as value.

cityrat  But it seems that the add-on path is getting a little saturated. Most people (esp those using a "platinum" level) already have more plug ins and stuff that they can actually use. And I see more and more threads about simplifying and streamlining personal workflow so you (I) dont spend (waste?) time messing with 10000 plugins.  

My observation as well cityrat, even if they are quality add-ons.

fireberd"Meat" not "fluff".

I agree with everything tlw said (post #81). I expect CW to continue to bundle 3rd party extras and other content to attract new users to the platform. Great! NP for me, -unless- 3rd party bundles, loops and amp sims are claimed as the major benefit of the -membership-. I have no problem not buying anything I don't value, but would be disappointed IF this is how it turned out. But I have no reason to assume this will be the case.

Drone7"Quality, not quantity".

Appreciating the comments Drone7 (post #82), not because I'm an EDM guy (I'm not), but because you've articulated a passion and commitment to the integrity of your craft which all genres could benefit from. I suspect that carries over into your opinions on how the Sonar experience could be expanded. Glad to hear it.
 
The configuration strategy is likely a reflection of running on a PC, (aptly noted by AT in post #86). The open platform concept for PCs has been more than validated by market share but comes with a greater support challenge as a result of that flexibility. However, that is -the- core feature for me and exactly why I moved to Sonar from Pro Tools/Mac platform. Separate registrations can be fussy, but have been a one and done for me.
 
It may depend on what you mean by "native support" but I question the ability of any company to deliver best-in-class for every feature that any genre might use, assuming anyone could even agree on what that is. Once a feature goes native it generally gets locked into the platform and becomes harder to enhance which could actually limit feature development. That being said, CW has demonstrated the ability to deliver some highly useful modules. (Quadcurve EQ, CA-2A, etc.)
 
I prefer a strategy to accommodate the widest range of preferences and imagine greater benefit by deploying CW resources on a core platform/feature set supporting the seamless integration of your preferred tools into a highly capable and robust platform. VST3, Rewire support, ARA integration, templates, etc. are examples of what I would consider core. If you meant ProChannel versions, yeah could see that for some things. This could easily include productive relationships with 3rd party vendors to ensure the robust integration of their flagship product into the core feature set. ARA is a nice start. CW is free to develop their own versions of existing capability but it will be a Product Managers challenge to define more value than what's currently available elsewhere.  

Development resources are always limited and my impression is CW bit the bullet last year to put the necessary architecture in place to support the new business model. Not very sexy or marketable, but a concrete demonstration of their commitment and ability to take on risk. I hardly have all the answers but see no problem in suggesting a strategy based on core features supplemented by optional genre specific bundles. Membership could be defined by pricing, availability, content etc. without lumping all users into a single like it or lump it category. I could go into plenty of pragmatic detail (already said way too much as it is), but intrigued by possibility of something like collaboration services, as mentioned by denverdrummer in post #100. Now -that- would be forward looking and a clear differentiator.

Please note I never once mentioned an actual cost. For someone who has literally spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of a career, the price of a DAW and what you can do with it are just ridiculously inexpensive. It's really about the big picture as the industry as a whole evolves.
 

jackson white
I'm impressed with this thread. It contains some very thoughtful, intelligent and valid points made in a constructive and productive manner from multiple points of view.

I see you're staying on point 
 
Not much to add, except the "So what's coming up?" angle. It's actually more complex than it might seem.
 
First, there is always the issue of giving a heads-up to the competition. I don't think Cakewalk is opposed to give some previews but if something is novel, simple to do, and not being implemented by other companies, Cakewalk is going to opt for the element of surprise.
 
More complex features are a different matter. Cakewalk has announced a drum replacer because even if a competitor started on it today to counter Cakewalk, they wouldn't get it out by the time it came out to SONAR members.
 
Also remember that developers work on things in parallel. It's not always easy to tell which feature will get to the "finish line" first, especially look several months down the line. Some features end up being much more difficult than expected, and some much easier. 
 
Second, part of this is to allow "turning on a dime." Here's a great example. I had a new FX for the Anderton Collection ready to go for February; it was completed, QCed, documented, and has a very different structure than the previous ones. But then that pesky Borthwick guy (he appears to have some kind of janitorial function at Cakewalk) called me and said he had an addition that would require some coding, but make the concept of that particular FX much cooler. Well, he was 100% right, and I said I'd wait until he made the changes, so I put the FX on the shelf. However, another effect that was planned for the March update was about 90% done - I stayed up late, and finished that instead. So why am I not telling you about it? Because I think no one's expecting it and it will be a cool surprise.
 
On the other hand, I already said I've completed an Acoustic Piezo amp. That's done, and I've tested it with eight different acoustic guitars with piezo pickups. It's ready to go, and I'm pretty sure it will be in the February update. I also found out it does cool thing for clean sounds with electric guitars, which was a pleasant surprise for me.
 
As to what appears over the coming year, there's really no risk. New users get the next 12 months free anyway (I just can't picture someone saying "NO!!! Don't give all kind of additional stuff for the next year that I get to keep!!! That's just -- wrong!!"), and if you update now, for many people the current bunch of features, fixes, and improvements under the hood are worth the price of upgrading even without getting what's coming. And if what exists now is only 70% of what people want, I find it hard to believe that what they get over the next year won't more than make up for that other 30%. 
 
Yes, a lot of the effort for the last year was to get "under the hood" - but it's consistent with Cakewalk's desire to build a foundation for a solid future.
 
So if you're  new user, you already have the program. If you upgraded, you already have the "X4" upgrade. Sit back, relax, and see what you get over the next year.