• SONAR
  • Concerns about reliability and the subscription model (p.16)
2015/06/01 09:26:34
Paul G
Anderton
.....you might be shocked at how many companies in this industry exist, how many people have jobs, and how many products you've used are a direct result of my writing "Electronic Projects for Musicians." I am proud to say that I have changed the world in my own little way, and on balance, I think for the better.

That's got to be a good feeling!  Wow!

 
 
2015/06/01 09:27:47
Grem
Karyn
What has Kevin got against nails?
 
Is nail abuse in the CoC?


LOL!! : )
2015/06/01 09:44:45
Kylotan
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 
I'm sorry this is inaccurate on several counts. 
 
- Every prior release from X3 and earlier (as long as I've been at Cakewalk) always had a mix of both bug fixes AND incremental features. Only the first point release typically addressed emergency fixes.

 
We're at a danger of quibbling over what a 'release' and a 'feature' is here, but take a look at these patch notes:
http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/20071226/SONAR-7-0-2-Update
 
Sure, the things at the top of that list called "new features" are certainly features from a software development point of view; they add new functionality. But they're not new Features with a capital F. You wouldn't put those up on the packaging or on the What's New page. Most of them are small tweaks that are similar to bug fixes in that they take some suboptimal behaviour and optimise it. And below them, there is a much longer list of bug fixes. With the kind of fixes in a release like that, there is a very low chance of regressions occurring.
 
With the new system, you obviously still want to fix bugs so that existing members will be happy and renew their membership, but you also have one eye on new customers, every month. New customers want new Features (capital F) and content, otherwise they would have joined already, right? That diverts some attention away from fixes and towards features because you need to deliver the latter every milestone.
 
Adding new features doesn't necessarily impact other features or create bugs in other features. Its pretty rare when that happens.

Obviously I can't judge how things get broken, but it's clear that they do, and given that all software companies have limited programming and testing resources, it stands to reason that some of the time spent on the drum replacer could have been spent on quality assurance. (I'm not saying that is what you should have done, but we both know there is a resources trade-off.)
 
As for rarity... these breakages might be rare in the "numerically small" sense, but not in the "what proportion of the releases break something significant" sense.
 
We have been actively working on improving drum maps, fixing several very longstanding issues that existed in X3 and earlier. You apparently haven't noticed any of those fixes but many others have.

Drum maps worked perfectly for me with no visible bugs from about Sonar 5 onwards. Then they broke in 2 ways in the last 3 months. :) The first way had no workaround, the second thankfully does.
 
I fail to see the reason for all the negativity and speculation in this thread based on an issue in *one* sub feature.

So, if you break just one sub-feature every couple of months, that's ok? Are drum map users second-class citizens? The reason why you add extra features is because to some people, that 1 new feature, whatever it is, is going to be something they come to rely upon.
 
Even ignoring that implication, it's not just one feature. There have been a few other areas that were really annoying, such as the Piano Roll view continually changing size in Alston, or the customisable Control Module not remembering edits in Cambridge. These were bugs found by the community within hours of release and which affected a lot of people, so it's hard to see why they made it out of the door.
 
Here's a concrete suggestion for you: if you're finding it hard to catch bugs like this with the development and QA resources available to you, don't ship a new version at the weekend! Ship it on a Monday morning, so if there's a glaring bug that slipped through, you're already at work and can work on a hotfix. An arguably even better approach would be to do a soft launch where a small subset of users get a day or two to hammer on it before you announce the release.
 
Here's another one: If it's the case that no part of your testing process involves anybody opening up a project with a drum map in it and playing it back, you might want to add that in. :)
2015/06/01 10:04:12
bz2838
Kylotan
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 
I'm sorry this is inaccurate on several counts. 
 
- Every prior release from X3 and earlier (as long as I've been at Cakewalk) always had a mix of both bug fixes AND incremental features. Only the first point release typically addressed emergency fixes.

 
We're at a danger of quibbling over what a 'release' and a 'feature' is here, but take a look at these patch notes:
http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/20071226/SONAR-7-0-2-Update
 
Sure, the things at the top of that list called "new features" are certainly features from a software development point of view; they add new functionality. But they're not new Features with a capital F. You wouldn't put those up on the packaging or on the What's New page. Most of them are small tweaks that are similar to bug fixes in that they take some suboptimal behaviour and optimise it. And below them, there is a much longer list of bug fixes. With the kind of fixes in a release like that, there is a very low chance of regressions occurring.
 
With the new system, you obviously still want to fix bugs so that existing members will be happy and renew their membership, but you also have one eye on new customers, every month. New customers want new Features (capital F) and content, otherwise they would have joined already, right? That diverts some attention away from fixes and towards features because you need to deliver the latter every milestone.
 
Adding new features doesn't necessarily impact other features or create bugs in other features. Its pretty rare when that happens.

Obviously I can't judge how things get broken, but it's clear that they do, and given that all software companies have limited programming and testing resources, it stands to reason that some of the time spent on the drum replacer could have been spent on quality assurance. (I'm not saying that is what you should have done, but we both know there is a resources trade-off.)
 
As for rarity... these breakages might be rare in the "numerically small" sense, but not in the "what proportion of the releases break something significant" sense.
 
We have been actively working on improving drum maps, fixing several very longstanding issues that existed in X3 and earlier. You apparently haven't noticed any of those fixes but many others have.

Drum maps worked perfectly for me with no visible bugs from about Sonar 5 onwards. Then they broke in 2 ways in the last 3 months. :) The first way had no workaround, the second thankfully does.
 
I fail to see the reason for all the negativity and speculation in this thread based on an issue in *one* sub feature.

So, if you break just one sub-feature every couple of months, that's ok? Are drum map users second-class citizens? The reason why you add extra features is because to some people, that 1 new feature, whatever it is, is going to be something they come to rely upon.
 
Even ignoring that implication, it's not just one feature. There have been a few other areas that were really annoying, such as the Piano Roll view continually changing size in Alston, or the customisable Control Module not remembering edits in Cambridge. These were bugs found by the community within hours of release and which affected a lot of people, so it's hard to see why they made it out of the door.
 
Here's a concrete suggestion for you: if you're finding it hard to catch bugs like this with the development and QA resources available to you, don't ship a new version at the weekend! Ship it on a Monday morning, so if there's a glaring bug that slipped through, you're already at work and can work on a hotfix. An arguably even better approach would be to do a soft launch where a small subset of users get a day or two to hammer on it before you announce the release.
 
Here's another one: If it's the case that no part of your testing process involves anybody opening up a project with a drum map in it and playing it back, you might want to add that in. :)


I've been looking at your posts over the last several weeks, and I think if I had as many problems with any software as you seem to have with Sonar, I would find another DAW that suited my workflow and style, if such a program even existed, or better still, maybe you should just develop your own DAW.  Personally, I find Splat to be very stable on my system.
2015/06/01 10:18:31
mettelus
Kylotan
Here's another one: If it's the case that no part of your testing process involves anybody opening up a project with a drum map in it and playing it back, you might want to add that in. :)



I couldn't help but chuckle at this one. Simple tests like this prevent every customer discovering it with a "wtf" moment. "A stitch in time saves nine."
 
On a more serious note, the point of the OP was to bring to light issues related to regression testing (correct me if I am wrong please), and I have tried to keep up with the rest of the thread but do not (yet) see what I was hoping for. Rather than see a simple "Definitely agree, we are working on it," there seems a hard-core stance to "What is, is what will be."
 
For me this all routes back to a concern voiced long ago of "lowering expectations." This is a serious concern, yet valid points are being heralded as "negativity." I think the disjunction mentioned above is what makes the rift wider. Being too close (or vested) into a situation often prevents people from stepping back and objectively considering the flip-side. Imagine taking your car to a mechanic, and each repair leads to another... how many times would a typical person endure this before a breaking point is reached?
 
[stupid anecdote] - In these situations (in person), I will often let people voice their perspective for however long and when they stop simply say "In all you just said, I was listening for the one enabler for success, yet heard none. Consider this... putting a man on the moon had a million reasons why it couldn't be done, but all that mattered was one path to make it happen." (I am still listening for the "one enabler" TBH, er... negative! ).
 
2015/06/01 10:18:41
Kamikaze
bz2838
 
I've been looking at your posts over the last several weeks, and I think if I had as many problems with any software as you seem to have with Sonar, I would find another DAW that suited my workflow and style, if such a program even existed, or better still, maybe you should just develop your own DAW.  Personally, I find Splat to be very stable on my system.


A number of users with stable systems are complaining about drum maps in this release. I don't think it's fair to lay the blame with Kylotan.
 
Seems to be putting his case quite well as far as I can tell.
2015/06/01 10:30:28
Kylotan
bz2838
I've been looking at your posts over the last several weeks, and I think if I had as many problems with any software as you seem to have with Sonar, I would find another DAW that suited my workflow and style, if such a program even existed, or better still, maybe you should just develop your own DAW.  Personally, I find Splat to be very stable on my system.



I find Sonar very frustrating from time to time, it's true. I considered moving to Cubase after 8.5 because I didn't like the look of X1/X2/X3, but went to X3 instead. Partly that was about price, but mostly it's because I have about fifteen years of Sonar files that I need to work with. Some are so old they still have the old .WRK file extensions. So starting anew in another DAW is not really an option right now. It would have to be a slow and progressive migration. Right now, it's not quite worth it. But I do use REAPER for editing multitrack drums (because Sonar is just not as effective for this) and I use FLStudio when I need a decent step sequencer and quick arrangement capability. Different tools for different jobs. (Though it won't stop me wishing Sonar did these things equally well itself.) My only major complaint about Sonar's workflow is when things I am used to stop working.
2015/06/01 10:35:21
Grem
Kylotan, I understand your point. You have made it several times.

Dr. A, I understand and sympathize with your point too. I use DM everytime I use a drum synth. That's every song!!

But it's not as bad as it's being made out to be. Do what I did, roll back.

Given the choices I have, X1-3, Reaper, or Studio 1, I am sticking with SPlat. It's the most productive DAW I have ever had! The CW team is doing their best to provide us a great DAW. I believe they will work this out.
2015/06/01 10:42:19
Kamikaze
WARNING: This post contains references to Staff View Bugs, deal with it.
 
So I have been wondering about documentation. A friend of mine was a programmer for a company in the UK, and it was going tits up, they let loads of people go, but kept him on, to document the coding behind the program.
 
Within a Notation thread it seems that cakewalk no longer have the knowledge to deal with the coding of Staff view. The primary complaint is Triplets. there have been a couple of fixes to staff view, but not tackling this. After the some fuss, to appease this part of the user base, I'd have thought this had been given some urgency, being a promary complaint
http://forum.cakewalk.com...handling-m3152863.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com...plet-bug-m3099917.aspx
Did they not document the coding for Staff View?
 
Is it a case that cakewalk staff have not been documenting what they are doing. Has the guy that developed drum maps left and left them with nothing to go on.
 
Of course I have no idea and no idea if the processes, but this what I suspect.
2015/06/01 10:48:19
Doktor Avalanche
Well it's the standard yaa boo thing.

A discussion about a problem will always be seen as negative.

The person who discusses problems will end up being labelled by some people as the negative person. Which in itself is a pretty negative thing to do. Labels will be thrown at people - moaners, complainers and suchlike.
 
The people who label the negative will do their best to make themselves look positive.

The issue will be trivialized - it's only a little thing.

Sloganism will endure... if you don't like it - then get out and use another DAW. There will always be bugs... blagh blagh.
 
Lines will be drawn in the middle, and people will end unconsciously or consciously picking "side" they will be on. Yet it's not a football match it's a discussion, and with all discussions there are shades of grey.
 
Ultimately a fairly complex argument will be whittled down to basics... Now this thread is 100% about drum maps, yet there was actually a point being discussed away from it.

Opportunists at the end of it will wait for a specific comment they can respond to, so they can direct the discussion.
 
People like me end up typing rubbish like this...
 
Same old forums... 
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