• SONAR
  • No notation fixes! (p.88)
2015/09/11 02:38:00
Anderton
Here's what I believe is the reality of the situation. 
 
  • The thread title is 8 months old, and posted out of dismay there were no notation fixes when SONAR 2015 was introduced. Indeed, Platinum did not have staff view fixes at that time.
  • There have been some staff view fixes since then. There was even a separate thread started after the staff view fixes started coming.
  • The terms fixes, improvements, development, and enhancements seem to be used interchangeably and defined differently by different people. Based on my understanding of these terms, there's nothing inconsistent about Bill Jackson saying there are no current developments planned for staff view 8 months ago, and then implementing fixes more recently. I think it likely fixes have been made because people (including myself, not that anyone cares) continue pushing for fixes.
  • No one doubts that there are people who use staff view and want improvements, but there are disagreements about what constitutes "improvements." Some think all that's really needed is fixes to what already exists, which I agree is the most realistic path to take for now. Others want more capabilities. Some would like better printable scores, others say that's a job for programs like Sibelius.
  • There has been much speculation in this thread as to the importance of notation to the universe of DAW users, from "no one cares" to there's a huge, untapped bunch of people who would run to SONAR if only it had a better staff view. As far as I can recall, I'm the only person who posted anything based on actual sales data regarding DAWs and their inclusion, or lack thereof, of notation.
  • I feel the only time this thread was constructively trying to improve staff view was when jsg presented what he felt were the most important fixes that needed to be made. The list was limited, precise, and specific. I alerted the bakers to it and forwarded the fixes he recommended to the product manager. I believe some of the subsequent fixes related to these although I don't know; since my days as a studio musician in New York are well behind me, I use staff view only to illustrate articles that involve some aspect of music theory, so I haven't been keeping score (sorry, pun alert) on which fixes were made or not made.
  • Some people seem to feel that the presence of long-standing bugs indicates a cavalier attitude toward users. However staff view was integrated into SONAR many, many years ago. Developers have come and gone, the company has been sold and purchased twice, and I doubt whether anyone currently at Cakewalk is particularly familiar with the code. I do not know if parts of it were licensed. I believe there were also MIDI issues that needed to be addressed first, because staff view is based on MIDI.
  • The programs that include a staff view (including pre-SONAR Cakewalk sequencers and DAWs) had their genesis in MIDI. At the time, staff view was very important to working with MIDI as the piano roll view was new. As the years went by, MIDI's popularity waned when digital audio became affordable. I believe one reason why DAWs created or designed after the first wave of MIDI, like Reason, Live, FL Studio, Studio One, etc. did not include notation (and note that the transition from Pro Audio to SONAR happened during that era as well) was because it appeared the future would eventually tilt toward digital audio over MIDI. Ableton Live didn't even include MIDI initially. However, as computers became faster, USB over MIDI became common, and virtual instruments became more sophisticated, MIDI had a renaissance as being a legitimate partner to digital audio, so staff view once again become relevant to those comfortable with that method of note entry and who needed score printing.
  • Cakewalk takes surveys of the active user base regarding priorities because the people in forums tend to be the most vocal and not always the most representative. My personal opinion is that people in forums are often highly engaged, which adds weight to opinions given here, but that doesn't necessarily overrule what a scientific survey with a statistically representative sampling of active users indicates.
  • Cakewalk is a small company with limited resources. Take a look at the features and requests forum, and there is an overwhelming number of things that people want. It is currently not possible for Cakewalk to implement even a fraction of them. The model of rolling out monthly fixes has, in fact, produced fixes to staff view where none had happened before but this model is only about seven and a half months old. During the past year or so the web site was re-designed from the ground up, the method of distribution was changed, a different provider for the store had to be integrated, the previous project manager left, the distribution chain shifted from Roland to Gibson, retailers dialed back on carrying boxed software, etc. That's a lot of changes for a small company to absorb. 
  • No one should think that developing notation is easy. Even the mighty Avid (which despite being weak on staff view, became a market leader over programs that had much better staff view) purchased expertise to upgrade the quality of their notation. Ditto PreSonus purchasing Notion, although notation has yet to be integrated as a view with Studio One Pro so it can't be that easy, even if you have the technology and a DAW to stuff it in.
  • I truly believe if Cakewalk tried to develop staff view further, it would require sufficient resources that the rest of the program would suffer as a result. I think the most realistic solution is to fix whatever bugs there are. As I mentioned in a previous posts, some staff view bugs have been addressed (thread title notwithstanding) so I am assuming that fixes will continue.
 
I truly believe if Cakewalk thought putting a major effort into staff view was in the best interests of the company's survival and the majority of their users, they would give it a very high priority.
 
Instead, I think they believe it's important enough to continue doing fixes but the priority is simply not as high as fixing other problems that relate to stability and therefore affect all users, or introducing features that can attract new users (no company can survive solely on updates from its core users). So, I suspect the rate of fixes will not be fast enough for those who want immediate changes now, but they will continue to be made as time and economic conditions allow.
 
I realize I probably wasted my time writing this, because people's minds are made up. But I'm really trying to present an objective view as an active user (remember, I don't speak for Cakewalk, nor do I clear what I post with them) who has been engaged in the music software industry since the days of my first hand-soldered 6800-based microcontroller. Therefore I think it's a perspective that has some value.
 
 
2015/09/11 02:49:15
Kamikaze

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Features#start

Compose!

Score your music with SONAR’s integrated staff view - ideal for songwriters and composers
 

 

Chord Chart & Tab

Notate, compose, or print music with standard notation staff view and guitar tab - perfect for guitar students and teachers

 
2015/09/11 03:05:02
Kamikaze
From January
 
pbognar     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
Elffin     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
riojazz      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
Guitarpima      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
John T      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
xtrumpeter     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
jsg     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
Guitarhacker      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
noynekker      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
DonaldDuck     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
trimph1      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
vintagevibe     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
StepD     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
Jimbo 88     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
FastBikerBoy     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
lowdown      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
Eyes     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
mftlstudio     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
MFanning     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
SvenArne     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
aries     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
Johannes H     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
Gusfmm      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
jb101      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
dede     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
drjee      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
Brett      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
noldar12      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-request-m2512060.aspx
sergiobklyn      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
cmusicmaker      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
tfkeel     http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
pbognar      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Sepheritoh     http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
some1namedjeff      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Shinyhead      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
paulc      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
djwayne      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
synthphonix     http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
vmw      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Monkey23     http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Johannes H      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
daveny5      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
malcolmb      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Elffin      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Mark Ellis      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
noldar12     http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Rbh      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Audiounity      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
InstrEd     http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
VonZipper      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Eyes      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
dreddick      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Combo      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
Muziekschuur at home     http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
maxsax      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
giankap     http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
bsteven      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
doctordale      http://forum.cakewalk.com...Notation-m2119593.aspx
DMX      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
sharke     http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
JerryLan3      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
Jimbo 88      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
Jon Bryson      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
Sidroe      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
cityrat      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
vintagevibe      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
jeebustrain     http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
vicsant      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
Brando      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
madoues      http://forum.cakewalk.com...aff-View-m2895741.aspx
Zonno     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
Kev999      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
kitekrazy      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
konradh      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
ChrisBG      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
PerChr      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
dfp123      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
Savagery      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
audiyo      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
VanGogh      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
Lanceindastudio     http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
LpMike75      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
BenMMusTech      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
sethmopod      http://forum.cakewalk.com...-view-m2460795-p4.aspx
MelodicJimmy      http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
Beepster      http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
John      http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
lfm      http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
cheez      http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
tomixornot      http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
Chandler      http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
jsg      http://forum.cakewalk.com...NOTATION-m2746474.aspx
Serenarules      http://forum.cakewalk.com...grammers-m2310046.aspx
Mod Bod      http://forum.cakewalk.com...grammers-m2310046.aspx
Beagle      http://forum.cakewalk.com...grammers-m2310046.aspx
subtlearts      http://forum.cakewalk.com...grammers-m2310046.aspx
RnRmaChine      http://forum.cakewalk.com...grammers-m2310046.aspx
WDI      http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
JClosed      http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
Rickbass      http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
dede      http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
Muzock     http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
jfraser56     http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
Swidhelm      http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
HeatherHaze      http://forum.cakewalk.com...ggestion-m2288777.aspx
rabeach      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
slartabartfast      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
Paul P      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
myconsumerclub      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
Kamikaze      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
TomHelvey      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
Sanderxpander      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
vladasyn      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
skinnybones lampshade     http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
SONARtist      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
microapp      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
michael diemer      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
carl      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
stevec      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
mcouture1961     http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx
joden      http://forum.cakewalk.com...on-fixes-m3148557.aspx


2015/09/11 08:19:51
Sidroe
Thank You, Craig! I posted this thread out of dismay when I plunged in to SPLAT last January I believe it was. I was hoping that there would be a great improvement in the notation department but there were still the same problems as far as my uses. I had no idea that this thread would last this long and have such great responses. Firstly, I am stunned at my little comment blossoming in to this long, sometimes mundane, sometimes heated discussion! Secondly, as I stated earlier in the thread, interest in getting notation inside Sonar is obviously growing or this thread would have disappeared in a mist a LONG time ago.
I cling to the hope that the bakers will make some major leaps and bounds in the SV soon. It does seem to be the red-headed stepchild (no offence intended to red-heads) of Cakewalk. It does deserve attention. Notice I said deserve and not require!
If they don't intend to fix it, they should say so and if possible remove that feature from Cakewalk altogether! I would much rather buy a product or an upgrade knowing that it doe not have that feature rather than have invested more money in another DAW that has a feature that is as mis-represented as SV is now.
I am quite happy with Notion re-wired to Sonar but I would be ecstatic to have those features inside SPLAT. It would make my job so much easier. One of these days a real notation program with audio recording on limitless tracks and third party plugin capability will arrive on the scene and the whole game as far as audio with notation capability will change. Wouldn't Cake want to be that company?
Having said that, I will close by saying, I know how expensive a program like I just described could be and that would be a good enough reason to not spend the money to develop it. Nonetheless, Sonar is almost there. It is almost painful to see it growing the way it is and still dragging the SV problems like an anchor behind it.
C'mon guys! Fix it or ditch it. I'll still use Sonar anyway. And MOST of the people who have it will stilll use it too. But you could pick up a lot of sales by fixing this.
I really didn't mean for this post to go this long but I am convinced that with this outpouring of responses Cake has to sit up and take notice that this feature is really worth getting right! Thanks, Everyone!
2015/09/11 08:32:20
jatoth
How comical, calling waiting over seven years, "wanting immediate changes now".
 
Nice work Kamikazi! An impressive list, I know there's more as you missed my posts.
Kind of quantifies "just a few vocal users".
2015/09/11 09:05:27
Orphaned at Birth
                                                        No notation fixes!
 
I totally agree with the thread topic, there should be no fixes to notation as there are far better and more important things to spend time and resources on (Rapture Pro for instance). Bravo
2015/09/11 10:38:50
Anderton
jatoth
How comical, calling waiting over seven years, "wanting immediate changes now".

 
As I said: 
  • Some people seem to feel that the presence of long-standing bugs indicates a cavalier attitude toward users. However staff view was integrated into SONAR many, many years ago. Developers have come and gone, the company has been sold and purchased twice, and I doubt whether anyone currently at Cakewalk is particularly familiar with the code. I do not know if parts of it were licensed. I believe there were also MIDI issues that needed to be addressed first, because staff view is based on MIDI.
I am talking about today. Some people want immediate fixes now, and based on this thread I am not wrong with that assessment.
 
Nice work Kamikazi! An impressive list, I know there's more as you missed my posts.
Kind of quantifies "just a few vocal users".

 
Unfortunately there are duplicates, so it's not the 121 users it appears to be (which unfortunately demonstrates it is a very small number of users compared to the total installed SONAR base), and the links don't work so it's impossible to check the posts to see if people were vocal supporters or offering comments. I picked one referenced user at random (djwayne) and didn't find any posts in January. I picked another one (svenarne) and his post said: "I admire the patience of the Staff View People! You haven't got thrown a bone since the early 2000s, but you still hang in there! I can actually read and write music to a fair degree, but I rarely ever use notation when DAWing." I don't see that as a big vote on the importance of staff view to that user. And as I said:
  • Cakewalk takes surveys of the active user base regarding priorities because the people in forums tend to be the most vocal and not always the most representative. My personal opinion is that people in forums are often highly engaged, which adds weight to opinions given here, but that doesn't necessarily overrule what a scientific survey with a statistically representative sampling of active users indicates.
Let's suppose that those 120 referenced posts are indeed from unique users, which they aren't, and that all the posts express the importance of staff view to the user, which apparently not all of them do. And let's suppose the number of enthusiastic SV supporters is actually 10 times that, or 1,200 people. That's still a small portion of the installed base.
 
Please, think logically for a second:
  • If Cakewalk had internal research that showed something was extremely important to a significant percentage of its user base, and
  • Implementing it would bring in large amounts of revenue, and
  • The company had the technical ability to implement those changes
What possible reason would the company have for not doing it? Answer: They wouldn't, they would jump on it. So why aren't they jumping on it? I've already explained why.
 
So if they're not jumping on an overhaul, is it logical to assume Cakewalk doesn't care about SV? No, because otherwise they wouldn't be making fixes. 
 
Also note that there are people who do use staff view and have said so in this and other threads. So I think it's important to at least note that it does meet the needs of some people. It makes no sense to consider SV as "all or nothing" where either you pull it out completely or fix it completely as that would be disservice to those who do use it. As noted, although I don't use it for day-to-day note entry, I do use it and would miss it if it wasn't there. Besides, if it was removed, that would preclude ongoing fixes that would eventually enhance functionality. They may come too late for users who require more from staff view than it currently provides, but it would serve new users well in the future.
 
And now, it's time for me to think logically. Some people will continue to believe that SV is vitally important to the user base, that including a hot staff view would bring in considerable revenue, and Cakewalk has the resources at the present time to comply with the requests for staff view improvements. Based on all available factual information, none of these beliefs is true. 
 
I have tried my best to present an objective view of the situation, with the ultimate irony being that I am one of the people pushing for staff view improvements; but because I am, I've researched the topic and as a result understand the obstacles involved in making that happen. I have nothing more to say, so there is no point in continued participation in this thread unless challenged, or something points out something I said that's inaccurate and I need to acknowledge that. I believe that my opinions are based on facts that may not make some people happy, but are indeed facts. If other people want to believe something else, they're free to do so.
 
 
2015/09/11 11:07:21
Kamikaze
So 111 user, apologies for for the duplicates, but I was trawling through posts in as systematic way as I could. 
And this was in January and not over ever, but a range of posts post X series.
 
Lets suppose by your own equations we applied the 'interest equations' you use against anything else that users had expressed an interest in, it would be far less.
 
Can you give an example of anything else where 111 users had expressed support?
 
You really are cakewalks spin doctor (yeah I know you have no supposed 'vested' interest in).
 
Why can't they speak for themselves?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
2015/09/11 11:28:38
Kamikaze
The links worked in January when I posted them here,
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3153601
Not sure why they got broke in 9 months
2015/09/11 12:05:54
Elffin
What frustrates me is that the note icons removed in X1 could be added nearly instantly since Cakewalk employed the guy who made the sonar+ tool.. Implementing it back in would take virtually 0 resources!!

For a program that is 'touch screen' orientated hiding note icon (values) seems bizarre...
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1

Use My Existing Forum Account

Use My Social Media Account