I'm wondering if zerofilling might be a cause of the pops/maxed-out meters/no sound syndrome being discussed here.
 
So, I have two questions:

1. When and where is silence zerofilled to very small numbers? Where in the signal flow path, and under what conditions? I find that some plugins do it (like Sonitus) but others don't (like LP EQ). Is it only applied to plugins?

2. Perhaps more importantly, 32 bit numbers can represent a dB range of about 186dB. So if I have 64 bit processing turned off, should ZeroFillDB be no bigger than 186? Otherwise, surely it can't be represented internally?


Cheers, Peter.

PeterMc
I'm wondering if zerofilling might be a cause of the pops/maxed-out meters/no sound syndrome being discussed here.
 
So, I have two questions:

1. When and where is silence zerofilled to very small numbers? Where in the signal flow path, and under what conditions? I find that some plugins do it (like Sonitus) but others don't (like LP EQ). Is it only applied to plugins?

2. Perhaps more importantly, 32 bit numbers can represent a dB range of about 186dB. So if I have 64 bit processing turned off, should ZeroFillDB be no bigger than 186? Otherwise, surely it can't be represented internally?


Cheers, Peter.

I was thinking of turning it down from the default 300 to 150 or even off like you suggested.
 
Be interesting if the cakewalk staff can answer your questions and help us understand our options with the settings available !

I believe the default behavior is to write noise to the output buffers in lieu of complete silence. I doubt changing ZeroFillDB would have any impact. I wouldn't turn the feature off.

It might be worth trying anyway on the project that was giving you grief. It's just crazy enough to work :) See my post in the other thread for more details - you may have to mute some instrument tracks too.

The day before yesterday it happened all day it was shocking!
Then yesterday on the same project in 3 hours it happened once ! I have pro-l on my master just for monitoring purposes and I can visually see it every time it pops and blurbs, and when it's a huge pop I think the pro-l saves me from the devastating silent master bus.

My plan is to wait until it is doing it frequently again then I am going to try turn it off. Keep in mind I have also just stripped down a large project trying to source this problem , it is a problem that needs to be fixed and without blaming anyone this has been a problem from the start and I think it's time for cakewalk to at least relook and rethink this.

I will report anything I find and I will try the different available aud.ini zero fill and zero db settings when the problem fires up requently again, starting with turning both off first (:

I have noticed something that I believe is related to this maybe someone can tell me what this is ? > sometimes when playback is stopped I go up and down my primary tracks and notice on some of them there is a signal -110db , so what I do is insert a new track above it and basically manually clone that -110db primary track and then delete the -110db primary track and the noise on the new manually cloned track has gone ( So recap the new manually cloned track has the same plugins and the same synth input - but the low level noise / zerofill is gone) !
Now I just did a video tutorial and sent it to cakewalk regarding ableton rewire audio outputs going silent ( which they confirmed that they have replicated the bug) anyway additionally in that video I also included what I just explained above about the low noise which I believe is the zerofill kicking in.

Thanks

OK I am back with some results:
 
I want to say a big THankYOU To CAkeWalk For giving us lots of choice with different settings throughout this DAW.
 
After testing these it looks promising that there are 3 other options to try which may fix this or make it better for your system specs !
There are 2 things that i want to recommend to cakewalk that could help these settings be used better:
A) ZeroFillMethod=2 cant be used unless ZeroFillDB = 300 , anything less than 300 is audible ( unusable to mix with ), so can you please increase ZeroFillDB to = 600 when combined with ZeroFillMethod=2 .
 
B)ZeroFillMethod=4 is Constantly Audible Noise ( unusable to mix with ) and can not be used, even when combined with ( ZeroFillDB = 0 to 300 has no impact on the signal level of ZeroFillMethod=4 !BUG! Please fix so we can ( test / use ) this !

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Something you should know before we do the tests is that :
A) ZeroFillDB = 300 is the maximum value, when measuring the fill on totalmix fx or schope, changing ZeroFillDB to = 600 had exactly the same fill signal as ZeroFillDB = 300.
B) These are tests on my system and have been tested as described below, this is only a reference to help you find the right setting for yourself, which you would have to test one at a time for a 2 week period minimum and monitor differences between the default and user changes. Just Saying don't change to much at once if your not familar with these settings !
 
TEST 1 :
1) Lets try  ZeroFillDB = 100 + ZeroFillMethod=2 buffers filled with alternating positive and negative values, alternating on each buffer switch =
RESULT: there's those nasty spikes UNDERNEATH OUR MIX "AUDIABLE YOU SHOULD HEAR THIS FOR YOURSELF " ! OMG maybe this should be ZeroFillDB =600 if using ZeroFillMethod=2 thast is Nasty !
Never the less this setting is there to try to do a job for us !
SHAME ZeroFillDB=600 ISN'T A OPTION with this !
CAUTION :( ZeroFillDB = 0 to 200 combined with ZeroFillMethod=2 is unusable because of the constant audible spikes during mixing)
MY Opinion : help me run for my life!
 
TEST 2:

2)Lets try  ZeroFillDB = 300 + ZeroFillMethod=0 silent buffers filled with zeroes (no denormal prevention)=
 
RESULT: NICE NO NOISE ( what impact this has though when a nasty denormal comes along is the million dollar question ?) surely it wont be as nasty as those HEAVY Random spikes /fingers crossed!

THIS setting is  what i have had running now on loop for 2 hours straight and so far nothing at all( NO POPS OR BLURPS OR BLEEPS ) - NICE, even sounds more settled during loop playback !
( which at times also could be achieved on the Default setting i want to add ) 
( 2 hours is not enough so by next Friday i will know for sure, i am leaving on this setting until then.)
My opinion : so far so good
 
TEST 3:
3)Lets try  ZeroFillDB = 100 + ZeroFillMethod=1 buffers filled with positive DC values =
RESULT: NO NOISE NO SPIKES NICE !
( quick 5 min Loop playback test : sounds smooth no spikes in that time )
( ZeroFillDB = 100 could be increased to 300 which is a + )

My Opinion of ZeroFillMethod=1: So Far so good
 
 
TEST 4:
4)Lets try  ZeroFillDB = 100 + ZeroFillMethod=3 same as ZeroFillMethod=2, but polarity changes with each sample  =
RESULT: NO NOISE NO SPIKES
( quick 5 min Loop playback test : sounds ok but spikey during the " loop playback END "nothing bad but definitely sounds edgy )
( ZeroFillDB = 300 would suit ZeroFillMethod=3  better for sure )
My Opinion of ZeroFillMethod=3 : Seems better than ZeroFillMethod=2
 
TEST 5:
5)Lets try  ZeroFillDB = 100 + ZeroFillMethod=4 buffers filled with low-gain noise =
RESULT: Interesting super fast spikes CONSTANTLY  !

This is similar to ZeroFillMethod=2 but MUCH FASTER constant Audible unusable ATM because when combined with ZeroFillDB =0 to 300 does nothing ! BUG ! Please FIX
 
Hope this helps i am trying my hardest to get cakewalk to share all the documentation on all the aud.ini settings this is a perfect example of why and also a highlight of why they should be explained with more detail also!
I will keep you posted of the current setting combination i am testing ! Fingers crossed no more POPS .

Thanks for all your efforts!
 
Let's hope you might be onto something here so that I can at least manage this problem at some point in the future (other than closing and reopening a project). It happened this morning while I was in the process of demonstrating Sonar to a friend who wants to buy it. 

I was suspecting zero fill as part of the problem in this project. Among other findings, I saw the track meter jumping during playback in a zero-filled area, and spikes printed in a zero-fill area of a track when using real-time bounce. And turning ON the 64-bit engine made the spikes go away.
 
When I get a chance, I'll try out some of the options listed by taccess

Good stuff taccess! There'd be a lot more solid information on this forum if more users, instead of just wondering out loud, took the time to actually figure stuff out empirically.
 
Just a thought...let's be careful about extrapolating specific results into universal advice. CW put these options in for a reason, which is most likely because how well the zero fill trick works may depend entirely on your own software environment.
 
Also, caution should always be exercised when you're trying to establish cause and effect for an intermittent problem that can't be reliably repeated. I don't know how many times I've been misled by seemingly efficacious actions that later turned out to just be coincidental.
 
I no longer have a reproducible scenario here. The project that had been giving me the pops/silence/pegged-meters symptoms pretty regularly (50%) no longer does so. I've no idea what's changed.

If you expeierecnce loud spikes or pops during playback then go here and support a possible solution towards getting this thing fixed !
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/ZeroFillMethod4-not-working-m3630575.aspx#3630575
Thanks