Samuel540
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A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
I've encountered this before... hit play and there's a loud pop with a specific track/bus meter, maxed-out (constant 0dB) with no sound. The problem is definitely caused by an FX plugin. Anyone knows why? VIDEO: https://youtu.be/slTU9NvZs9c
Daryl Samuel StarBlu Entertainment SONAR Platinum | NI Komplete 10 Ultimate | RME Babyface Pro | Focusrite ISA One | AKG C414 XLII | NI Maschine MKII | Roland A-800PRO | Roland MC-505 Groovebox | Lexicon MX200 | ASUS Sabertooth Z77 | Intel Core i7-3770 | Corsair 16GB 1600MHz
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David
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/09 03:46:53
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Yes , I have this problem as well , I have not figured our what plugin is causing it , it usually happens when I add or delete a pluggin while I have sonar playing , restart sonar is the only solution I have found.
I was sure it was Slate pluggins for a while but I don't thinks so now.
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bitflipper
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/09 04:06:14
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I've seen that, too. We discussed it in a previous thread. All I've been able to determine is that, in my case, it only happened with a particular project. And although I had traced the problem to a specific track, removing the fx from that track did not prevent the problem from reoccurring. Even now, if I open that particular project I have perhaps an 80% chance it'll play back OK. Here's what I'd recommend trying. Open the project and start playback. Then start removing (not bypassing, deleting) each plugin starting at the busses while watching the meters. At some point the meters may (I use the word "may" advisedly because it's inconsistent) drop to normal values. Make note of the track you were on, then re-open the project and start playback. You may have to do this more than once, because the problem is intermittent. Once you're able to reproduce the problem, remove the fx from that track. This is how I was able to isolate the problem to a specific track. Unfortunately, after placing the exact same plugins back into the track's fx bin, the problem did not re-occur. Not for a few days, anyway.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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KAV
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/09 08:39:57
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In my case, it always turned out that the culprit was some plugin that apparently didn't co-operate well with SONAR's 64-bit audio engine.
After I finally got tired of troubleshooting seemingly random behaviour and switched the 64-bit engine permanently off, I haven't seen the problem anymore.
Cakewalk by BandLab, Windows 10 Pro, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, i7-3770K, 32GB RAM, 3TB SSD, LinnStrument
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sharke
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 00:14:40
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Have had this happen many, many times. I think it used to be a problem with the Softtube Saturation module in the PC.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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PeterMc
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 02:34:16
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i5 6500, H170M, Intel HD 530, 16GB, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, Win 10 Pro (1803) (64 bit), Cakewalk by Bandlab
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Samuel540
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 02:53:47
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KAV
In my case, it always turned out that the culprit was some plugin that apparently didn't co-operate well with SONAR's 64-bit audio engine.
After I finally got tired of troubleshooting seemingly random behaviour and switched the 64-bit engine permanently off, I haven't seen the problem anymore.
It's a good thing this doesn't happen frequently else I would probably do the same and disable the 64-bit engine. Thanks for that bit of info.
Daryl Samuel StarBlu Entertainment SONAR Platinum | NI Komplete 10 Ultimate | RME Babyface Pro | Focusrite ISA One | AKG C414 XLII | NI Maschine MKII | Roland A-800PRO | Roland MC-505 Groovebox | Lexicon MX200 | ASUS Sabertooth Z77 | Intel Core i7-3770 | Corsair 16GB 1600MHz
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Samuel540
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 02:58:20
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PeterMc
This problem has been discussed in at least 8 separate threads over the last couple of years
This has been going on for years?! Then again, there's a ton of problems in SONAR that's been around for as long as I know so, I can't say I'm surprised. This kinda thing shouldn't be.
Daryl Samuel StarBlu Entertainment SONAR Platinum | NI Komplete 10 Ultimate | RME Babyface Pro | Focusrite ISA One | AKG C414 XLII | NI Maschine MKII | Roland A-800PRO | Roland MC-505 Groovebox | Lexicon MX200 | ASUS Sabertooth Z77 | Intel Core i7-3770 | Corsair 16GB 1600MHz
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mettelus
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 05:43:37
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Samuel540
KAV
In my case, it always turned out that the culprit was some plugin that apparently didn't co-operate well with SONAR's 64-bit audio engine.
After I finally got tired of troubleshooting seemingly random behaviour and switched the 64-bit engine permanently off, I haven't seen the problem anymore.
It's a good thing this doesn't happen frequently else I would probably do the same and disable the 64-bit engine.
Thanks for that bit of info.
For me this may explain why I have never seen this happen. My 64-bit DPE has been off since before those threads were posted. I wonder if anyone has seen this with the DPE unchecked?
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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PeterMc
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 08:46:36
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I have 64-bit DPE turned off and I get the problem.
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KAV
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 09:19:47
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As even a slightest change in a project or OS environment may either cause the problem to occur or make it go away, I guess switching the 64-bit engine off might also be just one of the many odd things one could do that just happen to hide the problem for now instead of actually fixing anything. Who knows.
Cakewalk by BandLab, Windows 10 Pro, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, i7-3770K, 32GB RAM, 3TB SSD, LinnStrument
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dcumpian
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 12:15:42
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When I've gotten it, it's always been when adding one too many instances of Channel Tools. Seems like I can use up to 4 or 5 in a project, and then it starts to act up. I've switched to a combination of flux StereoTool and Stereo Savage. No issues with either of them.
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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chuckebaby
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 12:20:17
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I had this problem before but once I switched soundcards it stopped happening and hasn't happen ii over 2 years.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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bitflipper
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 12:45:31
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I never use the 64-bit option, either.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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dcumpian
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 13:43:28
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chuckebaby
I had this problem before but once I switched soundcards it stopped happening and hasn't happen ii over 2 years.
I'm waiting for my Audiobox to die... Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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chuckebaby
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 15:23:18
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dcumpian
chuckebaby
I had this problem before but once I switched soundcards it stopped happening and hasn't happen ii over 2 years.
I'm waiting for my Audiobox to die...
Dan
Im sure plug ins do have something to do with it, but in my case it was interface. Once I switched to a better one, the problem seemed to disappear. My condolences on the audiobox 
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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ZincTrumpet
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 16:09:10
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It's still happening here too. Happened loads yesterday and not at all today.
Still haven't narrowed it down to a specific circumstance or set of them.
I don't use the 64 bit option either.
It's never once happened in another DAW (Studio One Pro, Cubase Elements, Mixbus are the main other ones I use although I am now using SPlat more than any of them).
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Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 16:20:11
(permalink)
Let me clear up some of the confusion...
Firstly it's a NaN issue. These are basically float representations of what can't be represented, in other words, not-a-number. The thing about these is once you get one in a series of calculations, everything that comes after that is also a NaN. So yes, if a plugin does the wrong thing on a math operation, everything after that will likely first pop and then go silent. Things like square root of a negative number, 0/0, arcsin with values outside the range -1,1, etc.
Denormals are just really tiny numbers that are close to 0 but smaller than what a float can normally represent. Those do not cause a pop and do not cause silence. instead, they can cause unusually high cpu as the microcode could be assisting. Classic symptom was seeing high cpu with plugins when silence passed through them.
In terms of tracking NaNs down, yes you can bypass the fx bin on a bus or track and then further disable individual plugins to find the culprit. We had some historically in our plugins that were subsequently fixed, so be sure you have the most recent versions of the in box plugins.
As far as SONAR by itself causing NaNs? It's extremely unlikely.
Nor would we leave such a thing in our engine unsolved for years. We use SONAR as well.
Also, we regularly do checks for invalid float operations by unmasking exceptions and looking for issues.
If you are using non-commercial 3rd party plugins it's possible they aren't handling 64-bit very well.
Keith
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chuckebaby
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 17:35:32
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I use a lot of different plug ins and I use a lot of plug ins in each track in my projects and it is intriguing to me that some say it happens "Loads" .. "All the time" yet I haven't seen it in 2 years. Im not playing Fanboy here either, I have my grips about other things in Sonar. but this sounds like it is turning in to a pile on of anyone who has ever had a Pop in their project
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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dcumpian
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 18:05:11
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☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2017/07/11 00:28:44
chuckebaby
I use a lot of different plug ins and I use a lot of plug ins in each track in my projects and it is intriguing to me that some say it happens "Loads" .. "All the time" yet I haven't seen it in 2 years. Im not playing Fanboy here either, I have my grips about other things in Sonar. but this sounds like it is turning in to a pile on of anyone who has ever had a Pop in their project
The Audiobox has a neat feature where when this happens, a reboot doesn't fix it. I have to manually disconnect the power, then reboot it. Looking forward to an RME someday... I don't have this happen all the time, but when I do, I was adding Channel Tools or unfreezing a track with Channel Tools in it. Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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reginaldStjohn
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 19:14:05
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Just to throw in my experiences with this. I have had this happen numerous times and I have always tracked it down to either the console emulator in the prochannel or another prochannel module. Usually, deleting and replacing it has fixed it for a time.
It just happened to me last week and I have everything updated.
AMD Phenom II x6, 8 GB Ram, 2 Internal SATA III HD Windows 10 Presonus Studio Live 16.0.2 Interface/Mixer Cakewalk Sonar Platinum Line6 Helix Guitar Processor Custom Made (El Bandito) Telecaster LTD ESP EC-1000 PRS El Torrero SE
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jbraner
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 20:29:18
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I've had this happen, and I always blame it on my audio interface drivers. When it happens, I change the buffer size (to something bigger), reload the project, and it always goes away.
I've always assumed this was a symtom of a driver problem. Hmm...
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jbraner
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 20:29:29
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abacab
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/10 21:37:17
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bitflipper
I never use the 64-bit option, either.
I'm surprised at the number of posts here and in various threads from Sonar users that have shut off the 64-bit option. That can't be a good sign ...
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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PeterMc
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/11 00:16:09
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☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2017/07/13 09:56:58
Keith Albright [Cakewalk
Let me clear up some of the confusion...
Firstly it's a NaN issue.
Couldn't it also be an Inf issue? SPAN shows -Inf for crest factor and peak (see here). I don't know what the "1.$" means for RMS and correlation. This project only contains Sonitus plugins (plus SPAN). They are up-to-date AFAIK (e.g. Sonitus Reverb shows file version 3.13.5.32, product version 3.3.5.00, modified date 15 Feb 2016). Is it possible to put a line of code before and after each plugin instance to check for good numbers going in and bad ones coming out? I'd be happy to install such a version to help track this down. Cheers, Peter.
i5 6500, H170M, Intel HD 530, 16GB, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6, Win 10 Pro (1803) (64 bit), Cakewalk by Bandlab
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taccess
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/11 01:46:25
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☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2017/07/13 09:57:05
PeterMc
Keith Albright [Cakewalk
Let me clear up some of the confusion...
Firstly it's a NaN issue.
Couldn't it also be an Inf issue? SPAN shows -Inf for crest factor and peak (see here). I don't know what the "1.$" means for RMS and correlation.
This project only contains Sonitus plugins (plus SPAN). They are up-to-date AFAIK (e.g. Sonitus Reverb shows file version 3.13.5.32, product version 3.3.5.00, modified date 15 Feb 2016).
Is it possible to put a line of code before and after each plugin instance to check for good numbers going in and bad ones coming out? I'd be happy to install such a version to help track this down.
Cheers, Peter.
This problem has been around for years and Cakewalk should be looking at this issue with a lot more concern then passing it off as a driver or a plugin or a denormal , because as a everyday user i can tell you its definitely not getting better ! and although i wont say its getting worse it sure seems like it some days ! If anyone can try and track down this ! well hats of to them !
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35mm
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/11 04:07:56
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I have also had this issue a few times in the Past when working with different versions of Sonar - pre platinum. I don't think I have ever had it at all on this current computer/Platinum combo which I have been using since January. When it's happened I have assumed it was a glitch with the audio driver - but that was just an assumption. The thing is though, for me at least, it happened so rarely it would be near impossible to track down the cause.
Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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mettelus
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/11 07:53:19
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☄ Helpfulby taccess 2017/07/11 22:35:50
Thank you for the NaN explanation. It does make me curious as to why these cannot be intercepted by the audio engine (even in a "troubleshoot" mode) so that a NaN is replaced with its last known good value and fed back into the calculation. I realize that this "gatekeeper" function would add CPU overhead, so would most likely be best limited to a troubleshooting mode (but would also negate the need to load projects in safe mode as well). If a plugin repeats itself, I would much prefer that the audio engine keep going and have SONAR pop up a message saying "So-and-so plugin has been removed from [whatever] FX chain because it is passing bogus audio information." Many users try/test plugins that end up being problematic and troubleshoot accordingly, but the audio engine is the ultimate authority of good/bad.
Every time I open S1Pro I see the message "RMixSONAR_64 ignored, because it has crashed before." This is the only one listed like this; apparently it is the only one that passed a VST scan but will not operate (it is actually bound to SONAR but S1Pro sees it as available, when it should not). Adobe Audition has always been quick to blacklist plugins that pass bogus data to the audio engine.
Having an "audio engine troubleshooting" feature to hunt/kill bogus plugins would save some folks (literally) hours of troubleshooting time, alleviate the need to use "safe mode" when opening a project, and also supply a definitive answer from the right source (the audio engine itself) instead of trial and error or tribal knowledge from the end user(s). Such a feature has been hinted at before, and it is definitely one end users would find immense value in.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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taccess
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/11 22:53:45
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mettelus
Thank you for the NaN explanation. It does make me curious as to why these cannot be intercepted by the audio engine (even in a "troubleshoot" mode) so that a NaN is replaced with its last known good value and fed back into the calculation. I realize that this "gatekeeper" function would add CPU overhead, so would most likely be best limited to a troubleshooting mode (but would also negate the need to load projects in safe mode as well). If a plugin repeats itself, I would much prefer that the audio engine keep going and have SONAR pop up a message saying "So-and-so plugin has been removed from [whatever] FX chain because it is passing bogus audio information." Many users try/test plugins that end up being problematic and troubleshoot accordingly, but the audio engine is the ultimate authority of good/bad.
Every time I open S1Pro I see the message "RMixSONAR_64 ignored, because it has crashed before." This is the only one listed like this; apparently it is the only one that passed a VST scan but will not operate (it is actually bound to SONAR but S1Pro sees it as available, when it should not). Adobe Audition has always been quick to blacklist plugins that pass bogus data to the audio engine.
Having an "audio engine troubleshooting" feature to hunt/kill bogus plugins would save some folks (literally) hours of troubleshooting time, alleviate the need to use "safe mode" when opening a project, and also supply a definitive answer from the right source (the audio engine itself) instead of trial and error or tribal knowledge from the end user(s). Such a feature has been hinted at before, and it is definitely one end users would find immense value in.
Really good suggestion and I believe this should be right up the top of the user based updates ! None of us have the same exact PC or in combination with the exact same audio interface , so it is not these causing this. platinum audio engine is the front line and plugins is what are responsible so why wait ? Why not make platinum solid with this NaN monitor idea from mettellus ! Or potential ideas that flow relating to mettellus suggestions ! Please Cakewalk listen to us !
z800 Dual x5690 NvME 256gb 950Pro / Win10 LSI MegaRaid Nvidia 450 GTS 96GB 1366MHZ RME Babyface
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taccess
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Re: A loud pop and a maxed-out meter level followed by no sound?
2017/07/11 23:53:09
(permalink)
Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
Let me clear up some of the confusion...
Firstly it's a NaN issue. These are basically float representations of what can't be represented, in other words, not-a-number. The thing about these is once you get one in a series of calculations, everything that comes after that is also a NaN. So yes, if a plugin does the wrong thing on a math operation, everything after that will likely first pop and then go silent. Things like square root of a negative number, 0/0, arcsin with values outside the range -1,1, etc.
Denormals are just really tiny numbers that are close to 0 but smaller than what a float can normally represent. Those do not cause a pop and do not cause silence. instead, they can cause unusually high cpu as the microcode could be assisting. Classic symptom was seeing high cpu with plugins when silence passed through them.
In terms of tracking NaNs down, yes you can bypass the fx bin on a bus or track and then further disable individual plugins to find the culprit. We had some historically in our plugins that were subsequently fixed, so be sure you have the most recent versions of the in box plugins.
As far as SONAR by itself causing NaNs? It's extremely unlikely.
Nor would we leave such a thing in our engine unsolved for years. We use SONAR as well.
Also, we regularly do checks for invalid float operations by unmasking exceptions and looking for issues.
If you are using non-commercial 3rd party plugins it's possible they aren't handling 64-bit very well.
Keith
zeroFillDB=(Default:300) determines the level of the fill data ! The above is all the information we have ! Can u provide more information on this please ? Should this be increased on larger projects ? or when De-normalization occurs with suspect plugins ?
z800 Dual x5690 NvME 256gb 950Pro / Win10 LSI MegaRaid Nvidia 450 GTS 96GB 1366MHZ RME Babyface
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