MIDI Cross Talk fixed?

Edited because I did not read your post correctly before - I hope it is fixed for you. I can't test this, but yes the list now says "SONAR can now record correctly from multiple MIDI ports (MIDI cross talk)"

I just tried it with two VSTi's sending MIDI events out at the same time - CRASH! Tried it again - CRASH!

When I filed the original Midi crosstalk bug I specifically referred to the VSTi output functionality being broken. That was two and a half years ago. The inability to record from two different sources at the same time was just a side-effect from this bug, or so I thought. So to mark the MIDI crosstalk bug as "fixed", and then to see it is just as broken as before is just amazing.

I have lost all hope for Sonar ever being a functional DAW again. CW should just close its doors and disappear so that we don't waste our time and money on software that will never work properly.

Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk
]


Silktone, please submit a report to the Problem Report Form with some Dump files.

I just finished a test with 2 instances of Beatscape and 1 of the jamstix3 demo. All the synths had MIDI output checked and I recorded to 3 separate midi tracks with no crashes or cross talk. It played back correctly too.

Here, I logged it for you over 2 years ago: CWBRN-1336. "Submitted to Development" 1 1/2 years ago.
 
"Submitted to Development" is code for "we have been able to reproduce the reported bug". So CW was able to reproduce the bug 1 1/2 years ago, I was just able to reproduce it with X1b, but now you claim there is no issue?
 
The bug is very specific in that the VSTi's sending MIDI events out should be in the FX bins, and it should be sending events at the exact same time, not 1ms apart, or anything like that. It seems to reproduce in those cases. Follow the link in CWBRN-1336 and then follow those instructions.
 
I have not tried to reproduce this with Beatscape but I have a feeling Beatscape might be more integrated with Sonar and doesn't act like other VSTi's (speculating). I will need to do more testing tonight or tomorrow to confirm.
 
One thing to try is have two instances of Jamstix in two different tracks' FX bins, both with exactly the same pattern (Ctrl-drag-drop Jamstix into a new track's FX bin to ensure they have the exact same sequence).

ShermanSmelville

It's functioning pretty well for me. Rather than making overwrought statements you should just quit this forum forever and go use a DAW that has zero bugs. I might be way off track but your particular bugbear seems pretty minor and not a thing that would affect many users. Maybe that is why Cakewalk has not found it necessary to address it yet.

 
Sonar crashing when you have two or more VSTi's outputting MIDI events at the same time is a minor bug? I guess it is more minor than the dozens of cosmetic glitches they instead chose to fix in X1b. And I won't "quit this forum" just because you say so. I invested too much of my time and gave too much of my money to CW to just shut up and not state what a piece of junk Sonar has been turning into. Have you not noticed the huge number of new/unfixed bugs people have been posting about in the forums since X1b was released?

Thanks greysound for jumping in. I think sometimes people don't get that this bug is an indication that there are some serious issues deep down in Sonar's MIDI implementation. This stuff is MIDI 101, stuff that any "professional" DAW should be able to get right. Yet here we are, years later arguing with CW and users that just don't seem get the issue. I have a feeling many MIDI related issues, like dropped/hung notes, general instability, and weird unexplained MIDI behavior could often be traced back to this bug. The reason many people think it is "minor" is because those kinds of issues are often written off as buggy plugins, etc.

BTW, I've been able to easily reproduce this with two instances of Jamstix:

1. In a blank project, insert two instances on Jamstix.
2. In each instance of Jamstix, select the same song in the song wizard and click "Create Song".
3. In each instance of Jamstix, go to Options and ensure "Enable MIDI Output" is checked.
4. In the synth rack, right-click on each instance of Jamstix and check "Enable MIDI Output".
5. Add two new MIDI tracks.
6. For each new MIDI track, select an instance of Jamstix as the input.
7. Put each MIDI track into record mode.
8. Save the project (since Sonar is about to crash).
9. Press R and watch Sonar crash

Note that using two instances of Jamstix isn't typical of course, but it demonstrates the problem. You can replace Jamstix with any VSTi that sends MIDI events out, like Catanya etc. Catanya is a plugin that screams for multiple instances, yet Sonar is unable to handle this use case. Also note that Beatscape doesn't trigger the bug because it doesn't sequence MIDI events itself. I tried - you just can't get two Beatscape instances to send MIDI events at the same time.

And a final note to ShermanSmelville: I would gladly dump Sonar at this point, and I am in the process right now of evaluating other DAWs. So far Studio One looks like the best bet, especially since it has a $299 cross-grade from Sonar. The reason I can't just completely dump Sonar is because I have older songs that are done in Sonar that I still need to work on. So I have a vested interest in Sonar, but it has become clear it can no longer be used for any serious work, and I will no longer start new projects in it.

Here is yet another way to reproduce this bug. You can substitute Jamstic for any VSTi that sends MIDI events out. Note that Beatscape doesn't sequence its own MIDI events and therefore doesn't reproduce the problem.

1. Go to Edit > Preferences > MIDI > Devices and ensure you have only your MIDI keyboard's input enabled. (The MIDI events seem to bleed into the first listed MIDI input driver, so having additional ones enabled might mask the problem)
2. In a blank project, insert an instance on Jamstix.
3. In Jamstix, select a song in the song wizard and click "Create Song".
4. In Jamstix, go to Options and ensure "Enable MIDI Output" is checked.
5. In the synth rack, right-click on Jamstix and check "Enable MIDI Output".
6. Add a new MIDI track, set its input to your MIDI keyboard.
7. Put the new MIDI track in record mode.
8. Press "r".

Notice that Jamstix's events are being recorded into the MIDI track that is set to record events from your MIDI keyboard.

So I have a serious question for CW: What exactly do you think you fixed when you say the MIDI crosstalk bug has been fixed?

Yea this is what I'm saying. I think a lot of weird MIDI behavior is related to whatever is causing this MIDI crosstalk. It manifests in all sorts of different ways, from hung/stuck/cut short notes, crosstalk between unrelated ports/tracks, to outright crashes. CW actually believes they "fixed" something in this area, but my feeling is they tweaked some of their spaghetti code to "fix" some very specific manifestation, and in the process broke it in other ways. That would be my best guess as to why you are now seeing different behavior.
 
I think people should stop poo-pooing this bug and realize it affects a lot of people that work with MIDI in some way or another.
 
As a software developer myself, it is clear to me that they are no longer able to fix one thing without breaking something else. This is due to years and years of accumulated spaghetti code (they still rely on MFC, a relic from the early 90's), so it doesn't surprise me that they have lost control over the code.

Silktone,
  It's clear that the only "crosstalk" bug they fixed is the one concerning same-channel midi notes recording on multiple physical ports. That's what their reported bug fix sounds like, too. I never thought that this bug is the same bug that you and others have reported relating to VSTi midi output or the other "random" stuck or missed notes. If someone at Cakewalk were led to believe it was only one bug, that would have been a big mistake, as it would be for any programmer fixing a single bug and hoping, without testing, that it addresses multiple syndromes.
  Bill B
 

SilkTone


Yea this is what I'm saying. I think a lot of weird MIDI behavior is related to whatever is causing this MIDI crosstalk. It manifests in all sorts of different ways, from hung/stuck/cut short notes, crosstalk between unrelated ports/tracks, to outright crashes. CW actually believes they "fixed" something in this area, but my feeling is they tweaked some of their spaghetti code to "fix" some very specific manifestation, and in the process broke it in other ways. That would be my best guess as to why you are now seeing different behavior.
 
I think people should stop poo-pooing this bug and realize it affects a lot of people that work with MIDI in some way or another.
 
As a software developer myself, it is clear to me that they are no longer able to fix one thing without breaking something else. This is due to years and years of accumulated spaghetti code (they still rely on MFC, a relic from the early 90's), so it doesn't surprise me that they have lost control over the code.

While I don't have a scientific survey to back this up, I do think most users do not go as deep into the program and its features as some others do.   Therefor some of these issues seeem frivolous to those that don't bump into these bugs.
 
I continually point to the fact that with the release of X1 a LOT of users seemed surprised to hear that the "Inspector" existed previously.    TO many, this was a "new" thing.
 
Yes, THIS inspector has more info in it or some info was moved into it, but the Inspector as a tool has been there for awhile.   Why didn't users know that before? ;)
 
 

Zyler Vega [Cakewalk
]

Hi guys,

Terribly sorry for any confusion, but the issue that you're describing (SilkTone) - while valid - is not "the MIDI Crosstalk bug".

In this case, MIDI Crosstalk = the ability to record from multiple MIDI controllers on the same channel.  This issue is fixed.

Like I said, your issue is valid - and we intend to address it in the future.
I hope this helps.

You might not be aware of this, but the bug I've been talking about for years was eventually called the MIDI crosstalk bug - I think I would know since I've been doing this for years. So yea, it is the MIDI crosstalk bug. What you are talking about is one particular manifestation of it, which was intended to be a "simple" way for CW to realize that there is an issue. All previous attempts to make CW understand the real issue has failed. It seems even the "simplified" version has blown over your heads.
 
On a similar note, I'm wondering how you think VSTi MIDI events bleeding into a MIDI track that is set to record from an external source is not MIDI crosstalk? What would you call it? An "enhancement" of what you are recording from an external source?
 
This whole thing is absolutely, mindblowingly stupid. I can see why Sonar is turning into such a big pile. CW has no clue what is going on anymore.
 
EDIT: You might want to do a search in your own forums for "MIDI crosstalk", and then realize that few, if any, of the results talk about crosstalk between external MIDI inputs. Almost all are related to crosstalk between VSTi outputs and other MIDI ports. Here is a thread dated February 2009 that talks about this issue in detail, and it clearly talking mentions MIDI crosstalk yet it has nothing to do with multiple external MIDI inputs.

You might not be aware of this, but the bug I've been talking about for years was eventually called the MIDI crosstalk bug

IIRC (and I could be wrong), the very first time the term "MIDI Crosstalk" was ever mentioned on the forum was in connection with a thread about recording simultaneously from multiple physical MIDI ports. I believe you "adopted" it for your issue later on, though your problem report my have been filed earlier

@brundlefly

Check this thread, dated Feb 2009.


@Zyler

Please do a search for "MIDI crosstalk" in your own forums, then tell me again how I got it all mixed up. It is CW that was incapable of "getting" the real issue and was able to band-aid the manifestation of this bug that prevents recording from multiple external inputs.

"Again, your issue is valid, noted, and will be addressed."

Doubtful. CW has been incapable of addressing this issue for over two years now. What changed?

Once again, what would you call a bug where MIDI events from VSTi outputs bleed into unrelated tracks during recording?

SilkTone


@brundlefly

Check this thread, dated Feb 2009.


@Zyler

Please do a search for "MIDI crosstalk" in your own forums, then tell me again how I got it all mixed up. It is CW that was incapable of "getting" the real issue and was able to band-aid the manifestation of this bug that prevents recording from multiple external inputs.

"Again, your issue is valid, noted, and will be addressed."

Doubtful. CW has been incapable of addressing this issue for over two years now. What changed?

Once again, what would you call a bug where MIDI events from VSTi outputs bleed into unrelated tracks during recording?

You can catch more flies with honey....

@brundlefly Check this thread, dated Feb 2009.

Okay. You win. I was thinking of this post:


http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=1794489


in which bvideo first used the term in this thread, and you later chimed in, suggesting it might be a manifestation of your bug.

... another bullet item for SilkTone's list:

• (July 12, '09) provided the CBRN number to Noel Borthwick, CTO, Cakewalk, who acknowledged the detailed information and posted "... We appreciate the the detailed information you provided and we will investigate this in due time...."

Clearly, more than one kind of midi crosstalk was reported and acknowledged in Feb thru Sept of 2009. In March 2011, one has been fixed. Various Cakewalk people are indicating they are more in a bug fix phase these days. Hopefully now is the aforementioned "due time". Now would also be a good time for someone to make it easy for Cakewalk to take an interest in whatever bug is most bothering one.

Bill B