Helpful ReplyMP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool

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interpolated
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/29 21:16:52 (permalink)
TBF I given up on lossy formats.
 

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backwoods
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/29 21:33:02 (permalink)
tonydude
This looks like a good addition to Sonar. 
 
I like iZotope Ozone a lot as well, but not everyone has Ozone (and it's expensive).
 
It's the sign of a good idea if a similar feature is implemented by several companies. So I'm pleased to see Cakewalk add this and I'll be using it.




That's how i feel about it too. These new engineering series plugins are great. 
 
I see Bob Currie (who was in charge of the CA2A) posted in this forum the other day when I thought he had left Cakewalk. Hopefully this means we may see more cool VSTs in future :) 

 
#32
chuckebaby
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/30 00:21:36 (permalink)
paulo
chuckebaby
 
I agree, Awesome feature to have now included free in this update.
 




Wait...... Sonar is free now ?
 
Damn it, I only went and paid for mine. 
 
Typical.
 
 
 
Slinky editing btw 
 


 
I respect your opinion. But if your so unhappy.. Why stay here ?
Just simply move on and let others enjoy the features. Think about it, that first comment about "Welcome to 2015" is just plain ignorant.
 
Complaining all the time gets old.
The occasional gripe is normal for everyone, but all the time.. Gets old man.
 

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#33
AllanH
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/30 02:24:12 (permalink)
This is a great add to Sonar. I'll be comparing to Ozone, which I use.

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#34
kellerpj
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/30 02:42:10 (permalink)
Anderton:
 
I'm so happy to hear you say that about MP3 "coloring" the audio!
 
This is probably a comment on the (questionable) quality of my mastering, but I perceive that my master mixes sound better when I convert them to MP3, fixed at 192k bps.  It seems to "warm them up".  I've silently been noticing that about my master mixes and your post seems to reinforce my perception.
 
Using the AL on the Master bus, I'll now be able to "preview" my mixes without exporting them.
 
I like that a lot!
Paul

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#35
stevec
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/30 18:16:12 (permalink)
I love Ozone 7 - it's the only plugin I always use when "mastering".   However, given my PC specs I just can't add it to a live project.   Adaptive Limiter seems like a great way to get me closer to that end goal without bouncing down to a stereo track > importing into a simple project > listening > then rinsing and repeating as needed.   Less time watching the progress bar, more time actually using SONAR.    I likes.  

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#36
thornton
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 03:00:34 (permalink)
is there something special i have to do for the histogram to show other than hit the histogram button
 
#37
JohnEgan
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 11:48:04 (permalink)
 
Anderton
Check out the MP3 functionality in the Adaptive Limiter - you can preview what the MP3 will sound like at different bit rates, as well as audition what's taken out during the data omission process (which is pretty revealing). It's almost like having an extra application built in to the Adaptive Limiter. 



Good day all,
 
Looks like a "whole lotta bakin been going on" for this update, anxious to try out limiter, and ripple editing also, usually I wait till sometime after official release to update, but my curiosity may overwhelm me this time, LOL.
 
Is there anyway to access documentation on limiter without actually doing the pre-release update? 
 
Cheers
 

John Egan
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#38
Unknowen
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 12:01:25 (permalink)
hum? this sounds cool... and really helpful to me! :)  thank you!

Hay look,
Somethings are not locked in stone... lol 3/18/2019
#39
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 16:18:32 (permalink)
Awesome!  Yes - I own some heavy mastering stuff here - but I think this is a GREAT addition to the camp Great Job Cakewalk!!

Be the first one who thinks that you can
 
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#40
cparmerlee
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 17:03:41 (permalink)
interpolated
TBF I given up on lossy formats.



I love the new limiter.  I have other tools that will show the MP3 loss, but it makes perfect sense for this to be in the limiter because that is often the last effect in the entire process.
It may be my imagination, but it seems that the Adaptive Limiter shows more compression artifacts than other tools.  With other tools, compression at 320 shows almost no loss, but Adaptive Limiter shows quite a bit of loss even at the highest compression.  I don't doubt that AL is doing, but I just ask the question.
 
The real issue is acceptance of FLAC.  I just got a FIIO Bluetooth player that supports FLAC.  I see CD Baby supports FLAC.  I can't imagine anybody NOT using FLAC if it is supported.

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#41
interpolated
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 17:28:23 (permalink)
I thought all fiio players accepted flac. It's my main format. Quality over quantity. Sorry read your statement wrong.
post edited by interpolated - 2017/05/31 18:04:58

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
#42
Unknowen
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 17:34:20 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Try inserting Ozone on 10 tracks and buses just to see the MP3 preview and see what it does to your performance :)


Hello, :)
So you could put this on your master buss out? Do you need to use any specific settings?
also, would you leave it on when exporting or take it off like the IK ARC?
 
Thanks!
 
 

Hay look,
Somethings are not locked in stone... lol 3/18/2019
#43
cparmerlee
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 18:47:00 (permalink)
interpolated
I thought all fiio players accepted flac. It's my main format. Quality over quantity. Sorry read your statement wrong.



You are probably right.  This is the first Fiio I have owned.  I like it a lot.  I use it in small venues for background music, connected to the Samson XL800, which is really a great little system with Bluetooth receiver built in.
http://www.samash.com/expedition-xp800---800-watt-portable-pa--sxp800xxx-p
 
Even though it uses 8" speakers (plus a HF driver) it really has a very nice balanced sound.  I do have a 12" subwoofer I will add in if it is a little larger room.  And the XPD1 wireless mic at $80 integrates right into this system.  That's great sound quality for $80.  I know this is off topic, but I thought it was worth a mention for anybody who needs a very compact system with good sound quality, and loads of power.
 
Having said all that, everything I have loaded to the Fiio is MP3 because that's the source.  There is no point in converting MP3s to FLAC.  The horse has already left the barn.
 
It seems that iTunes supports FLAC but Amazon does not:
https://www.amazon.com/Why-not-lossless/forum/Fx3UK3J1FANZLQ9/Tx33D3DWUY99M8Z/7/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg7?_encoding=UTF8&asin=B002QD2PNY
 
But I wonder about iTunes because I think they still allow artists to upload material in MP3.

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#44
berlymahn
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 19:19:01 (permalink)
Such banter.....
 
Anyone planning on upgrading to a new i9 Machine..... CPU makers have gone core crazy.
 
In the future CW will have to build in latency as an artificial feature just to feel normal....

Jim Wim  
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#45
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 19:47:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cparmerlee 2017/05/31 19:51:31
You are right: AL's "differences" test produces different results than Ozone's.
 
What I did was export a portion of a project twice, first with Ozone's artifact-monitor on and then with AL's artifact-monitor (both set to 320 kb/s). I exported them as 32-bit waves to avoid any differences from encoding or bit depth changes or dither. I then imported the two files into a new SONAR project and level-matched them. I then used exclusive-solo to bounce between them. 
 
To my surprise, they were audibly different from one another. Of course, they did not null, either. It does not appear that one is superior to the other, just different. Still, it raises some interesting questions about how two MP3 encoders could produce different results, given that they are both presumably using the same patented algorithms.
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#46
Anderton
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 20:28:05 (permalink)
Maybe the speed at which the compression was performed makes a difference? (You know, the "faster/slower compression" option a lot of encoders have). It does with the LAME encoder - if you export a file with "quality = better" or "quality = faster," they won't null even though the kbps is the same. Also maybe a high or lowpass filter is enabled behind the scenes.
 
Encoders may use the same algorithms, but that doesn't mean the implementation is identical.

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#47
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 20:41:21 (permalink)
I get your point, truly I do, but I always feel this is a little bit of a LAME argument.
 
 
 
 
 
 
...I'll get my coat.

I'm off to see the Wibble, the wonderful Wibble of Wobble
 
#48
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 22:47:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] 2017/06/01 01:09:06
Craig is correct: the Adaptive Limiter's MP3 artifact preview may differ from other implementations due to the selection of the LAME parameters. 
 
Suppose you upload your mixed and mastered .wav file to some service which uses MP3 for hosting/playback. As a user, you can't be sure what LAME parameter settings are being used for encoding/decoding behind the scenes. For this reason, we decided to err on the side of "default" as opposed to "ideal" encoding parameters, so you can expect your final rendered MP3 to sound "at least as good" as the preview given in the Adaptive Limiter.
 
Imagine making careful adjustments based on MP3 codec preview, only to have your final MP3 contain additional artifacts that didn't show up in the preview...now that would be LAME!
#49
Anderton
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 22:53:09 (permalink)
Jon Downing [Cakewalk]
Suppose you upload your mixed and mastered .wav file to some service which uses MP3 for hosting/playback. As a user, you can't be sure what LAME parameter settings are being used for encoding/decoding behind the scenes. For this reason, we decided to err on the side of "default" as opposed to "ideal" encoding parameters, so you can expect your final rendered MP3 to sound "at least as good" as the preview given in the Adaptive Limiter.



That seems like a..."sound" engineering decision 

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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/05/31 23:07:33 (permalink)
Anderton
Maybe the speed at which the compression was performed makes a difference? (You know, the "faster/slower compression" option a lot of encoders have). It does with the LAME encoder - if you export a file with "quality = better" or "quality = faster," they won't null even though the kbps is the same. Also maybe a high or lowpass filter is enabled behind the scenes.
 
Encoders may use the same algorithms, but that doesn't mean the implementation is identical.


I suspect you're right. An on-the-fly encoder might well employ a lower quality setting for the sake of efficiency. But wouldn't that kind of defeat the "hear what we're taking out" feature? (Not that I place much stock in it to begin with; after all, it's only playing us the stuff we're not supposed to hear anyway.)


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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cparmerlee
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/06/01 01:51:49 (permalink)
I suspect the Cake limiter is amplifying the MP3 artifacts in order to make them easier to hear.  That would not necessarily be a bad thing, but if that is happening, it should be explained so that people will understand that the fidelity loss is exaggerated.

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/06/01 02:53:36 (permalink)
Its not exaggerated. As Jon explained above its showing the encoding behavior at the default MP3 encoding settings.

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cparmerlee
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/06/01 03:41:26 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Its not exaggerated. As Jon explained above its showing the encoding behavior at the default MP3 encoding settings.



I see.  It does seem a bit misleading.  I'm not saying that the Cakewalk implementation is misleading by design.  I'm just saying the effect is a bit stronger than what people would normally experience with MP3 compression.  I don't suppose you would consider adding the faster/slower option.  (Maybe that would do more harm than good, if it eats too much CPU.)

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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/06/01 13:46:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Jon Downing [Cakewalk] 2017/06/01 14:47:20
cparmerlee
...the effect is a bit stronger than what people would normally experience with MP3 compression.



You're right about that. It's not realistic, but it wouldn't necessarily be more realistic even with higher quality settings.
 
Not unless the option was given to exactly match your own settings - assuming that a) you use the same settings all the time, that b) you actually know what those settings are, and c) that you use the LAME encoder yourself.
 
Most of LAME's commandline options are unique to LAME. I don't use LAME. Consequently, even if CW added configuration options I'd not be able to match them to the encoder that I use.
 
The lesson: don't put much stock in anyone's artifact-revealer tool. Although it has some educational value, it yields very little in the way of actionable information, regardless of implementation.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#55
Anderton
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Re: MP3 Preview in the Adaptive Limiter - Way Cool 2017/06/01 14:41:24 (permalink)
bitflipper
The lesson: don't put much stock in anyone's artifact-revealer tool. Although it has some educational value, it yields very little in the way of actionable information, regardless of implementation.

 
Some material handles data omission better than others; listening to the artifacts can help determine what you can get away with if minimum memory/fastest streaming is a priority.
 
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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