MUTE TOOL -- Should I just forget it?

Cakewalk,

As I have explained before, the Sonar 4 Mute tool, as I use it, suffers from issues that make it flakey to disfunctional when working with audio clips. Either I have misunderstood this highly-marketed Sonar 4 feature, or it simply doesn't work correctly -- EVEN AFTER THE 4.0.4 PATCH.

I have determined that the problem, in my case, stems from the flexible Bar/Beat/Tick method of positioning events in Sonar (as opposed to lining everything up against a uniform SMPTE clock). I understand that this is a design choice, which has certain benefits, particularly for MIDI. However, for my workflow, which involves detailed tempo, automation and other timing/nuance edits, to meld MIDI and audio (& sometimes video), this is a big problem.

Even a simple project, with a MIDI piano accompaniment and a vocal line (comped from multiple takes), has proved nearly impossible to edit as I would like. The tempo changes (used to align MIDI to the vocal track) make the Mute Tool to unusable; and even prior to adding tempo changes, Mute Tool edits often behave very strangely (edited portions are offset and sometimes shorter/longer than what I selected, etc.).

If this and other related issues are accepted as inherent to Sonar's design, then I will probably buy an additional software package (such as Adobe Audition) for acoustic audio, video & post-production work. [Note: I have had very few (minor) issues with Sonar's MIDI creation and editing tools - which seem very reliable & powerful; only audio has been troublesome.] It appears, now that the 4.0.4 patch is out, that my only other choice is to upgrade my PC, upgrade to Sonar 5, and hope that the issues have been resolved, or will be in a later patch. That is not very comforting.

Please advise me as to whether you accept these issues as part of the design. I would prefer to do all my work in one program (Sonar); but I would rather buy the right tools than wait and nag your company about Sonar's audio tools.

With great respect for your work and design philosophy,
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Mike

I dont use the smart mute function purely because I have some whacky gui stuff which happens with it. I *think* this is just a compatibility issue though.

I personally prefer to cut and mute clips rather than smart mute anyway - It's more straightforward and you have the option of slip editing too.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

ORIGINAL: Infinite5ths

Well, that is a useful suggestion. I don't like to have to go a different route simply because the product does not work as advertised; but I'm open to just about any ideas. [I still have not received ANY suggestions from Cakewalk about how to work around this issue. I would think they should know how to perform such a basic task with Sonar 4 - in spite of the bugs. Doesn't anybody else comp from several audio takes in projects that have tempo changes?]

daverich, how does your method work with multiple layers in a single clip? I tried to use the Mute tool, as it seemed the easiest way to pick the best portions of multiple takes in one track. [...not to mention that the Sonar 4 website marketing videos advertised exactly this use for the Mute/Isolate Tool] Otherwise, I have to copy, paste, re-align, split, mute/delete, and so forth. It is much easier to snap to "Clip Boundaries", using the snap grid to guide the mute tool selections, leaving the original clips intact.
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Mike

It's simple - you just chop the layers up - highlight the bits you dont want and press Q. This will mute them.

It's a pretty quick way of working once you get used to it. (quicker than smart mute imo)

Kind regards

Dave Rich

Doesn't this run the risk of mixing up the takes permanently?

I know....that's what I'm trying to do anyway, right? But what if I decide I'd like to try a different comp version? How do I identify what was originally a take?

Or, what if I want to attempt multiple versions, to compare them?

This may sound rediculous, but I work with a lot of classical string music and vocals. Sometimes the differences between takes are subtle, or the defects are odd. I need the freedom to mix and match -- and if necessary, to start from scratch over and over.
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Mike

I have submitted multiple feature requests for this and other related features (like "Lock to SMPTE" for audio clips and "Drag Stretching" for MIDI clips). I can't wait forever...there's work to be done. :-]

I can understand that. I've got a FR for a midi clip preview in Loop Explorer. Hope springs eternal.

Have you ever opened a S4 project in S3? The mutes are still in place but with an envelope. I don't know exactly how it works but the mute tool is nothing but an envelope creation tool.

I have seen your other threads and have experienced mute tool anomolies but they are generally rare. The offset problem seems to have developed more recently. I have seen it in mixed audio and midi projects generally. This is based on memory after reading your threads so their might have been a pure audio project with the problem too.

I have seen mute issues in S5 but mostly it's been extremely reliable.

Generally the mute tool is a time saver for me and functions more reliably than most cellphones. I use that as the most commonly malfunctioning thing that humans seem to tolerate. I wish it was perfect but then I wish many things. My mother had a saying about that.

I have a feeling that the time/placement relationship of audio clips is simply too deeply woven into the sonar concept. I wish I could modify the tempo and keep things from getting out of alignment but it just doesn't work. I would love to be able to place a two markers and tell sonar that there are 8 bars of 4/4 time in that space and have it take care of making the grid line up. I believe audio clips are just an midi event in sonar. That's why they move around reletively to each other.

Good luck,
Wm.

wmb,

Unfortunately, I don't have S3. So I can't try that.

I only WISH that the Mute Tool was as reliable as my cell. I have a Nokia cell, which I picked specifically for it's simplicity and bulletproof design. It's been all but perfect for more than a year now. I wish MOST of my gadgets were as reliable as my cell... I suspect that the Mute Tool would be a time saver for me too, if.........................

I know what you mean about the time/placement thing. That's why I may need another program. Sonar is GREAT for MIDI. But I think of AUDIO in a classical musician sense: exactly at a specific time, with infinite detail and nuance. I need exact control over WHEN in time.....not relative to abstract M:B:T. This is true twice over when scoring for video. I want things to stay where I put them! :-p
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Mike

OK, I've done some more testing. It looks like the apparent "auto-select" issue may have been a VISUAL problem only. I noticed this mostly at the end of clips, with silence (or low-level noise) at the ends. I scaled the audio up to increase the size of the visual waveform, and it appears that the ends of the clips are NOT actually muted. I guess this stems from the fact that that the visual representation is so small (due to the number of layers), even when I've maximized the track. In any event, the visual waveform outside of the Mute Tool selection changes -- which is a little disconcerting.

I'll keep testing this, keeping my fingers crossed. However, this still doesn't solve the problem with tempo changes.

If indeed the Mute Tool is just a disguised version of mute envelope then I'm a bit surprised that 4.0.4 didn't fix this problem. I quote from the "SONAR 4.0.4 Maintenance Release" page:

Notable Bug Fixes:
* Clip envelope editing anomalies, which could occur when 1) creating a clip envelope in a project that had tempo changes, and 2) the clip was position after the tempo change and 3) the Now time was over the clip and 4) new nodes were created before the Now time.

Plus, there were also a couple other muting related fixes. How did this get by untouched?
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Mike

Not really, all I can offer is the extremely un-useful phrase - it appears to work fine here. Can you explain better why tempo changes cause a problem for you? Ideally, give a recipe, for example.

1) Create a project with a single stereo audio track, initially set to 60BPM. For the purposes of this recipe, enable snap to measure too.
2) Record a clip from 2:01:000 to 07:01:000 (approx.) Speech is useful for this (maybe count quickly).
3) Mute a region from 5:01:000 to 06:01:000.
4) Playback the recording noting carefully where the muted audio falls.
4) Insert a tempo change at 2:01:00 to 120BPM.
5) Insert a tempo change at 4:01:00 to 240BPM.
6) Playback the project again, check that the same audio is muted.

Obviously all the exact positioning and artificial BPMs are there to help diagnose any problems you might find, and are totally non-realistic, but you get the idea...

OK, ladies & gentlemen,

I have created a test project to demonstrate the Mute Tool bug. You can download it from my website: MUTE BUG DEMO PROJECT (It is saved in a Sonar 4.0.4 bundle -- I'm sorry but it's kind of big [4MB] for a download).

It is a SUPER basic project -- NO MIDI, just audio. I created one mono audio track by copying a simple sound effect loop repeatedly, then bouncing to a single audio clip. Originally the audio clip was 20 bars long at 100 BPM.

At this point, I MUTED (with the Mute Tool) every other bar (i.e bars 2, 4, 6, etc.). Then I added several tempo changes, each lasting 2 bars. Finally, I drew in some random tempo changes for the last section of the audio clip.

Please download the project bundle and try the following. Let me know if you notice any odd Mute Tool behavior. NOTE: The M:B:T times below are approximate. THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO BE ZOOMED OUT FAR ENOUGH TO OBSERVE WHAT HAPPENS TO NEARBY PORTIONS OF THE AUDIO CLIP when you perform each Mute/Unmute.

ALL TIMES ARE IN "MEASURE:BEAT:TICK" format

TRY TO MUTE:
From 04:03:600 to 04:04:100
From 06:01:600 to 06:02:100


TRY TO UNMUTE:
From 09:04:200 to 09:04:800
From 10:03:400 to 10:03:900


Keep in mind that this is an EXAMPLE project. YES, it's silly to use tempo changes without MIDI tracks. I have only eliminated the MIDI tracks in this example for simplicity. YES, the tempo changes are random and extreme. This is meant to show that tempo changes do indeed affect the Mute Tool. [I get very similar results even which only adjusting the tempos slightly to line up my MIDI tracks with a recorded vocal.]

For the record, I have found that, when performing the above edits, portions of the audio clip OUTSIDE my Mute Tool selection, are either edited ALONG WITH my selection (i.e. the same thing happens to my selection and the non-selected portions) or the inverse (the OPPOSITE happens to the non-selected portions). In any event, SOMETHING happens that mutes/unmutes sections of the clip outside my Mute Tool selections.

Also, I have not been able to replicate the situation wherein tempo changes completely prevent the Mute Tool from altering the mutes. I know that happens, because I have an unfinished project (thanks to this bug) with that problem....but I'm trying to simplify it and narrow down the causes as I have done in this demonstration.

Thanks for your help and input!
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Mike

billkath,

Maybe I misunderstood you, but...

In the 1st edit (04:03:600 to 04:04:100): If I unmute the entire beep, then attempt my edit, THE ENTIRE BEEP gets muted. If I unmute the entire beep and the 2 shaker spikes before it, then attempt my edit, ALL OF THE ABOVE GETS MUTED (shakers & beep).

In the 2nd edit (09:04:200 to 09:04:800): If I try to unmute the beep (after the two shaker spikes) [say I try to unmute from 09:03:135 to 09:04:363], then everything from 06:04:135 BACK to 09:02:363 GETS MUTED! (The beep unmutes, as selected, but this other stuff gets MUTED simultaneously.) :-o


Does your system not do this??
--
Mike

jp,

I take pride in my work. ;-))

Yup...I have tried it in new projects. I even created this one from scratch (pun intended) just to see if the problem arises in a fresh, basic project.

Now I'm REALLY confused. If YOU can do the edits on your machine OK....but I can't. Then WHAT is the deal?

Perhaps I should post BEFORE & AFTER screenshots of one of these edits, so you guys can see what I mean.....
--
Mike

Did anybody else get a chance to try this? I'd love some more feedback.
--
Mike

OK....so I'm not crazy. :-|

The hard part about this is that the behavior is unpredictable, and UNPREDICTABLY unpredictable. I can't even figure out exactly what causes which wrong behaviors. All I know is that tempo changes & the Mute Tool don't get along.

By the way, I have sent an email to tech support about this -- quoting my first post to this thread. They have not responded yet....but that's partly because they've been trying to diagnose my GPO crash issue. I'll report back if I hear anything definite from them.

Oh....and THANK YOU guys for your help with this one. :-]
--
Mike

Wow...this is unbelievable. If there are this many problems in a DAW package, then how on earth do major film production companies EVER get anything done in video packages?? With issues like this, one would think that software design is a random, archane world that defies science & logic...
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Mike