Helpful ReplyMastering in Sonar

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Paul G
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2015/05/03 05:33:42 (permalink)

Mastering in Sonar

If you were mastering a multi-song CD in SPlat, how would you set it up?  What's your process?  Using only included plugs.  Any information on what you do and why.  Thanks much!
 
Links to other discussions on the subject would also be appreciated. 
 
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/03 06:05:59 (permalink)
I use several T-Racks modules in my mastering chain, along with a Bluecat metering plugin which conforms to the K System.

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tlw
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/03 11:14:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Paul G 2015/05/03 15:57:57
Get the mix as near perfect as possible first, mastering is gentle final touches, not fixing major problems in balance between instruments/voice or eq. So mix into a gentle compressor on the master bus with a ratio of around 1-2 or maybe 1-4 first. Then export the stereo mixdown. Do the same with any other tracks you need to give a similar sound to (e.g. because they'll all end up on the same CD).

Wait a few days at least so the next stage can be approached with a head clear of what you were thinking when you did the mixing.

Set up a new project and import all tracks that need mastering, so each occupies a separate section of the time line. Listen to the lot. If anything strikes you as wrong go back to the mix and sort it out. Also load a reference track either one of your own that you are happy with or a commercial mix that has the kind of sound you're aiming for. Route it directly to a hardware output so it doesn't go through the master bus and use it as a comparator with your own work.

Insert onto the master bus a multiband compressor, eq, maybe a reverb with a very short tail set to almost entirely dry (can be a useful "glue"). Then a frequency analyser (Voxengo Span is good and free) and a gonomiometer to check phasing. Finally a transparent limiter to use for the final volume setting, limiter set to not allow anything louder than -0.3dB.

Set all track and bus meters to show RMS as well as peak values.

Proceed from there. There are as many approaches to mastering as there are people who do it. Reading up on Bob Katz's K system is a good idea, as is watching some of the more professional videos on Youtube (the Point Blank FFL! ones are useful). Finally, it helps if you have a decibel meter so you can set your monitors to a consistent level somewhere between 78 and 85dBA (our hearing system is easily fooled and tends to think a slight volume increase = better sounding even when it isn't).

Take lots of breaks to avoid hearing shifts and tired ears.

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Anderton
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/03 11:29:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Paul G 2015/05/03 16:04:09
I realize you're in Florida, but if you make it to GearFest, I'm doing a workshop on mastering within a DAW and as you might expect, SONAR is what I use to demo the techniques. It will be similar to this (not much of a description, a few photos from Noel, but you'll get the idea:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Craig-Anderton-Mastering-workshop-at-AES-m2914579.aspx
 
Meanwhile, here are link to articles I've done on the subject that you might find helpful. Also note that in my Advanced Workshop video, chapters 26, 27, 28, and 30 relate to mastering.
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct13/articles/sonar-notes-1013.htm
http://www.soundonsound.c.../computermastering.htm
(quick overview) http://www.guitarplayer.c...ng-with-your-daw/22936
 
Some mastering-related tips:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-m3074655.aspx#3078594
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Fridays-Tip-of-the-Week-52-The-Final-Big-Tip-Blowout-m3074655-p2.aspx#3083144
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Fridays-Tip-of-the-Week-52-The-Final-Big-Tip-Blowout-m3074655-p3.aspx#3135395
 
I also did several videos about mastering for PreSonus. Most of them are relevant to SONAR although of course, they don't cover SONAR-specific features. Go to:
 
http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton
 
...and keep loading views until you can see all the videos. The mastering ones are the last six. Note they're in reverse order - the first video is last, the second video is next-to-last, etc. (And of course, feel free to listen to the music and hit the "like" button multiple times )
 
Here's a video of a seminar I did for PreSonus at NAMM.
 
http://youtu.be/zetHy_lDNYE
 
I'm also planning on doing an assembly-related article for Harmony Central but it hasn't been posted yet.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Paul G
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/03 15:53:36 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
I use several T-Racks modules in my mastering chain, along with a Bluecat metering plugin which conforms to the K System.


Thanks Jonesey!
 


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Paul G
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/03 15:58:53 (permalink)
tlw
Get the mix as near perfect as possible first, mastering is gentle final touches, not fixing major problems in balance between instruments/voice or eq. So mix into a gentle compressor on the master bus with a ratio of around 1-2 or maybe 1-4 first. Then export the stereo mixdown. Do the same with any other tracks you need to give a similar sound to (e.g. because they'll all end up on the same CD).

Wait a few days at least so the next stage can be approached with a head clear of what you were thinking when you did the mixing.

Set up a new project and import all tracks that need mastering, so each occupies a separate section of the time line. Listen to the lot. If anything strikes you as wrong go back to the mix and sort it out. Also load a reference track either one of your own that you are happy with or a commercial mix that has the kind of sound you're aiming for. Route it directly to a hardware output so it doesn't go through the master bus and use it as a comparator with your own work.

Insert onto the master bus a multiband compressor, eq, maybe a reverb with a very short tail set to almost entirely dry (can be a useful "glue"). Then a frequency analyser (Voxengo Span is good and free) and a gonomiometer to check phasing. Finally a transparent limiter to use for the final volume setting, limiter set to not allow anything louder than -0.3dB.

Set all track and bus meters to show RMS as well as peak values.

Proceed from there. There are as many approaches to mastering as there are people who do it. Reading up on Bob Katz's K system is a good idea, as is watching some of the more professional videos on Youtube (the Point Blank FFL! ones are useful). Finally, it helps if you have a decibel meter so you can set your monitors to a consistent level somewhere between 78 and 85dBA (our hearing system is easily fooled and tends to think a slight volume increase = better sounding even when it isn't).

Take lots of breaks to avoid hearing shifts and tired ears.

Thanks Tim!  That's what I'm looking for.  What chain guys are using Sonar.  Question, because you're not dealing with anything specific in any of the songs, I'm guessing that time sig and tempo are not relevant.
 
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Paul G
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/03 16:05:06 (permalink)
Anderton
I realize you're in Florida, but if you make it to GearFest, I'm doing a workshop on mastering within a DAW and as you might expect, SONAR is what I use to demo the techniques. It will be similar to this (not much of a description, a few photos from Noel, but you'll get the idea:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Craig-Anderton-Mastering-workshop-at-AES-m2914579.aspx
 
Meanwhile, here are link to articles I've done on the subject that you might find helpful. Also note that in my Advanced Workshop video, chapters 26, 27, 28, and 30 relate to mastering.
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct13/articles/sonar-notes-1013.htm
http://www.soundonsound.c.../computermastering.htm
(quick overview) http://www.guitarplayer.c...ng-with-your-daw/22936
 
Some mastering-related tips:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-m3074655.aspx#3078594
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Fridays-Tip-of-the-Week-52-The-Final-Big-Tip-Blowout-m3074655-p2.aspx#3083144
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Fridays-Tip-of-the-Week-52-The-Final-Big-Tip-Blowout-m3074655-p3.aspx#3135395
 
I also did several videos about mastering for PreSonus. Most of them are relevant to SONAR although of course, they don't cover SONAR-specific features. Go to:
 
http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton
 
...and keep loading views until you can see all the videos. The mastering ones are the last six. Note they're in reverse order - the first video is last, the second video is next-to-last, etc. (And of course, feel free to listen to the music and hit the "like" button multiple times )
 
Here's a video of a seminar I did for PreSonus at NAMM.
 
http://youtu.be/zetHy_lDNYE
 
I'm also planning on doing an assembly-related article for Harmony Central but it hasn't been posted yet.


Wow!  This is the second time that the great Mr. A has posted to one of my quires.  Lots of great links there!  I'll be weeks getting through all this.  Thanks Craig!
 
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Anderton
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/03 17:00:52 (permalink)
You're very welcome, always glad to help if I can.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/04 08:03:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Paul G 2015/05/04 19:28:25
Time signature, key etc. are, as you say, irrelevant.

A couple of things I forgot to mention. Make sure the low frequencies are centralised, we tend not to be good at locating the source of a sound at below around 200Hz and as the frequency drops we get steadily worse. Low frequency sounds are also very prone to phasing issues. So panning low frequencies or giving them stereo width can lead to some odd results.

And if you're mastering for vinyl forget most of what I said. That has its' own peculiar requirements to do with the physical limitations of vinyl playback and is a very skilled job indeed.

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pharohoknaughty
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/04 11:15:23 (permalink)
tlw


Set up a new project and import all tracks that need mastering, so each occupies a separate section of the time line.



 
This is interesting.
 
I always stacked the tracks up and down so I could visualize them better, but your way might make it easier to do the final export, given Sonar's range export idiosyncrasies.
 
Thanks, will give it a try.
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Anderton
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/04 13:12:31 (permalink)
pharohoknaughty 
I always stacked the tracks up and down so I could visualize them better, but your way might make it easier to do the final export, given Sonar's range export idiosyncrasies.



I really haven't found idiosyncrasies, just tons of options. I'd recommend saving export presets so you don't have to think about what to check and not check each time. Of course you also have to make sure everything is selected properly but presets are a real time-saver.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Paul G
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/04 19:26:50 (permalink)
tlw
Time signature, key etc. are, as you say, irrelevant.

A couple of things I forgot to mention. Make sure the low frequencies are centralised, we tend not to be good at locating the source of a sound at below around 200Hz and as the frequency drops we get steadily worse. Low frequency sounds are also very prone to phasing issues. So panning low frequencies or giving them stereo width can lead to some odd results.

And if you're mastering for vinyl forget most of what I said. That has its' own peculiar requirements to do with the physical limitations of vinyl playback and is a very skilled job indeed.

Thanks.  Probably not a bad idea to have an analyzer in that bus as well.  I think it would be neat to see some master bus PC presets.  Anyone want to post one?
 
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Paul G
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/04 19:28:07 (permalink)
Anderton
pharohoknaughty 
I always stacked the tracks up and down so I could visualize them better, but your way might make it easier to do the final export, given Sonar's range export idiosyncrasies.



I really haven't found idiosyncrasies, just tons of options. I'd recommend saving export presets so you don't have to think about what to check and not check each time. Of course you also have to make sure everything is selected properly but presets are a real time-saver.


Personally, I think placing each song in it's own track would make things easier to manage.
 
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/04 19:42:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Paul G 2015/05/05 09:40:50
Here is a tip that I gleaned from sitting in on a session with a top mastering engineer here in Melbourne.
 
What he did was lay all the tracks out sequentially on one track and we listened to all of them and then he chose one to master first.  The one he chose had everything going for it.  The biggest sound, the most instrumentation, the most going on... the lot.. There is usually one track out of a whole group that is like this.
 
Then he created a separate session and mastered that track.  Also he had commercial reference tracks going on as well the whole time.  He did not have to place the ref tracks into the session. We were using a Neve desk and they have lots of stereo two channel inputs than can be switched to very quickly.  But even so you can still import a ref track anyway and use it.  It is still a great idea to master against a fantastic sounding track. (similar of course)  It keeps you honest and stops you from straying away from a good sound which is easy to do.
 
So once this 'first big' track was mastered then he opened up the original session that had all the tracks in it. Then he pasted the mastered track many times sequentially on another track so no matter which track he was mastering he could always quickly listen to the mastered track which now we can call the reference track.  He used that to fine tune all the others tonally etc so they all matched up nice in the end.
 
Its OK to use a commercial reference track to master your first track.  But then after that the ultimate reference track then becomes the first mastered track from the actual album you are mastering.  You will get the others sounding very much like it.

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pharohoknaughty
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/04 22:46:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Paul G 2015/05/05 09:49:17
Paul G
Anderton
pharohoknaughty 
I always stacked the tracks up and down so I could visualize them better, but your way might make it easier to do the final export, given Sonar's range export idiosyncrasies.



I really haven't found idiosyncrasies, just tons of options. I'd recommend saving export presets so you don't have to think about what to check and not check each time. Of course you also have to make sure everything is selected properly but presets are a real time-saver.


Personally, I think placing each song in it's own track would make things easier to manage.
 
Paul


 
I agree each tune should be on a separate track. I think next time I will try to put each tune in a separate track, but with the tunes going across the time line, like a waterfall. So each tune will have a separate section of the time line.
 
That way you don't have to solo each track to hear it, just move the "now time".
 
By the way, by this stage in the game the tunes should be in pretty good shape. I only want to verify they are working well together sonically. The early part of mastering should be accomplished before this.
 
As far as the export, I am sure it is my own personal demon that so often causes all of the tracks to have the length of the longest event (when I stack all of the tracks being mastered). The trick is to highlight the CLIP that is the tune AND solo the track with the tune you want exported, so the time selection will only be the length of the soloed tune. 
 
But since I only do this every so often, I forget. Like I said it is my personal issue, although I notice that on the forum I am not the only one that had a similar problem through the years.
 
BTW, the advise TLW gave is really good. Anderton's advise is always very good also.
 
Another source that you might find helpful is the free mastering guide that is on the iZotope website. It is a PDF of how to master that explains things well. It uses the iZotope products as examples but you can learn the techniques and use the equivalent software if you want. This guide really helped me out way back in the days of Pro Audio 9, when I got serious about mastering. I was in a band that needed a CD but of course no one would pay for an expert. So I had to learn.
 
And, on a lark, I will quote a prior contributor from the forum in 2006. I saved this in a Word file because it works so well.  His name was Shea, but he quit contributing a long time ago. Unfortunately, he assumes you have Waves LinMB and L2. The part about the mastering bus is optional, but the use of the multi band and limiter is golden.
 
Here is what he wrote:
 
This is a mastering tip i got away back and i use it all the time.It renders great results all the time, especially for radio mastering. Now adays i feel that every body has to get every thing so loud and squashed that it loses all dynamics especially bottom end.I see you have waves. Right.

Create a master bus in sonar. This asumes that you have a nice ballenced mix and everything is rooted to that bus.


Place LinMB and L2 in the master chain — LinMB first, followed by L2. Load the "Adaptive Multi Electro Mastering" preset. Set your eq to taste, being very careful with the amount.
Under the "Master" section, you'll see control boxes with arrows. These controls globally affect all of the frequency bands. Grab the Threshold control and drag downwards. This lowers the thresholds across all frequency bands. When the animated DynamicLine begins to dance like a snake, you are beginning to apply compression. Stop when the DynamicLine is moving through about half of the total Range represented by the blue band.

Assuming all looks and sounds well, you can proceed to the L2. Grab the left Threshold slider, and drag it downward until you begin to see very slight activity on the attenuation meter. Leave the slider at that position. Adjust the Out Ceiling slider to a ceiling of -0.1 dB to extra-guard overshoots.

At this point, you should be hearing a very full mix, where most of the peak information is still intact.

Now proceed to making your final master, not by bouncing but by summing through your desk in realtime.
At this stage you should have a nice loud radio friendly mix.
post edited by pharohoknaughty - 2015/05/04 22:55:59
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harmony gardens
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/05 01:19:42 (permalink)
Great thread!!  Hi Paul!!

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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/05 06:54:25 (permalink)
This is a great thread...thanks for all of the useful information.

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Paul G
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/05 09:37:11 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
Here is a tip that I gleaned from sitting in on a session with a top mastering engineer here in Melbourne.
 
What he did was lay all the tracks out sequentially on one track and we listened to all of them and then he chose one to master first.  The one he chose had everything going for it.  The biggest sound, the most instrumentation, the most going on... the lot.. There is usually one track out of a whole group that is like this.
 
Then he created a separate session and mastered that track.  Also he had commercial reference tracks going on as well the whole time.  He did not have to place the ref tracks into the session. We were using a Neve desk and they have lots of stereo two channel inputs than can be switched to very quickly.  But even so you can still import a ref track anyway and use it.  It is still a great idea to master against a fantastic sounding track. (similar of course)  It keeps you honest and stops you from straying away from a good sound which is easy to do.
 
So once this 'first big' track was mastered then he opened up the original session that had all the tracks in it. Then he pasted the mastered track many times sequentially on another track so no matter which track he was mastering he could always quickly listen to the mastered track which now we can call the reference track.  He used that to fine tune all the others tonally etc so they all matched up nice in the end.
 
Its OK to use a commercial reference track to master your first track.  But then after that the ultimate reference track then becomes the first mastered track from the actual album you are mastering.  You will get the others sounding very much like it.


Great post.  Thanks.
 


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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/05 09:44:55 (permalink)
harmony gardens
Great thread!!  Hi Paul!!


Hi Dale!  Great to hear from you.  PM me if you get a chance and we'll catch up.
 
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Re: Mastering in Sonar 2015/05/05 09:47:03 (permalink)
harmony gardens
Great thread!!  Hi Paul!!

Long time no see, Dale.

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